Miscellaneous NHL Talk, 2018 edition

[Deadpool8812]

Holmgren was a good GM as long as he could spend like a drunken sailor.
Once the cap started to constrain his options, he was lost, because he wasn't a good drafter.
In the "real cap" era, when you can't amnesty out of bad contracts, Holmgren soon found himself over his head.

Problem for some fans is they haven't grasped the implications of a hard cap - it completely changes your strategy.
You need a steady flow of cost controlled talent to afford a few big contracts, and the operative word is "few."

Holmgren probably would have been alright if he also didn't have Ed in his business (RIP)

 

[Curufinwe]

In Holmgren first full season as Flyers GM, the cap was $50.3m.

He was still GM when the Flyers used the amnesty buyout on Bryzgalov.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Paul Holmgren was GM for 7 seasons if you take out his interim 1st season. He missed the playoffs once. He made it to the 2nd round of the playoffs 4 times. He made the Easter conference finals twice and the Stanley cup finals once.

If you judge a GM on actual record, it’s hard to justify saying he is one of the worst GMs in the history of professional sports. There have been teams with way more talent and assets that haven’t come anywhere close to that level of success.

That's some interesting wording to shed Holmgren in a more positive light.

So what you really mean is that Holmgren was Flyers GM for 8 seasons (unless you think being asst. GM for the first 8 games wipes out being GM for the remaining 74 games in 06/07).

*Made it past the 2nd round twice in those 8 seasons* (1 ECF loss, 1 SCF loss.)

2 first round losses.

2 second round losses.

2 missed playoffs.

Finished better than 3rd place in his division *once* in those 8 seasons. (1 first place, 4 third places, two 4th places, and a 5th place.)

Had only 2 100 point teams in those 8 seasons.

And, again, the biggest thing that irks me is the spin that Holmgren "turned around a team with the worst record in the league." Pffft. He inherited a goldmine of a situation for all of the reasons I listed in my previous post. Almost NO GM gets to inherit a situation that flush with assets, young talent, cap space.

And then, through a series of woeful blunders, he proceeded to piss away draft picks, destroy the cap, and by the time he was forced out, he left Hextall with a team in major salary cap trouble and at the bottom of the NHL in prospect rankings. A far cry from the fertile landscape Holmgren himself had inherited 8 years earlier. He was like a tornado that swept through the organization and Hextall was left to repair the damage.

 

[Lindberg]

Holmgren had a lot of pressure on him after the 2010 finals I think. I'm sure Snider put undue pressure on Holmgren to try and succeed and Pronger's injury was his undoing.

If Pronger never got injured and finished out his career at age 40/41 (if not longer) than I think the Flyers would be on a totally diferent path.

 

[Garbage Goal]

Holmgren was the luckiest GM I have ever seen. He inherited a team filled to the brim with assets and trade chips that really didn't have anywhere left to go but up. He actively pissed away assets and disregarded the future all for a chance to win the Cup. However, during his tenure, they only made the SCF once (and the ECF twice). That claim to fame is a load of bull though because, in addition to losing in the SCF due to massive holes in goal and the bottom D pairing, he was entirely lucky to get there. That team made the playoffs on a shootout on game 82. Then they were literally one goal, one bounce away from losing a series against the Bruins they magically came back from down 0-3. Both those were awesome, magical fan moments but you cannot tell me with a straight face there wasn't a whole hell of a lot of luck involved to make the SCF. Then, to top it all off, Holmgren gets promoted to a position that completely absolves him from dealing with any of the repercussions of his rampant disregard for the franchise's future. Which is the last several years of awful hockey and awful coaching.

No person is without their merits, but Homer was the luckiest GM I have seen in a while and, because of that, every defense I see of him is a load of bull hiding behind a revisionist narrative. In a league where over half the teams make the playoffs, simply making the playoffs isn't a defense of anybody.

 

[gertbfrobe16]

glass half full glass half empty same thing as now. not as bad as some think not as good as some think. somewhere in the middle.

 

[Curufinwe]

He took over the worst team in the league and made some pretty good moves and won seven playoff series in seven years. Towards the end he made some bad ones, and one truly terrible one with Bryz.

 

[FlyTimmo]

He took over the worst team in the league and made some pretty good moves and won seven playoff series in seven years. Towards the end he made some bad ones, and one truly terrible one with Bryz.

He gave us a shot and it would have all been worth it had we won, but boy did he leave us in a pickle. Bad contracts all over the place and an abysmal prospect pool.

 

[Rebels57]

Holmgren was the luckiest GM I have ever seen. He inherited a team filled to the brim with assets and trade chips that really didn't have anywhere left to go but up. He actively pissed away assets and disregarded the future all for a chance to win the Cup. However, during his tenure, they only made the SCF once (and the ECF twice). That claim to fame is a load of bull though because, in addition to losing in the SCF due to massive holes in goal and the bottom D pairing, he was entirely lucky to get there. That team made the playoffs on a shootout on game 82. Then they were literally one goal, one bounce away from losing a series against the Bruins they magically came back from down 0-3. Both those were awesome, magical fan moments but you cannot tell me with a straight face there wasn't a whole hell of a lot of luck involved to make the SCF. Then, to top it all off, Holmgren gets promoted to a position that completely absolves him from dealing with any of the repercussions of his rampant disregard for the franchise's future. Which is the last several years of awful hockey and awful coaching.

No person is without their merits, but Homer was the luckiest GM I have seen in a while and, because of that, every defense I see of him is a load of bull hiding behind a revisionist narrative. In a league where over half the teams make the playoffs, simply making the playoffs isn't a defense of anybody.

This is a pretty bad take. No offense.

 

[YEM]

This is a pretty bad take. No offense.

yep
you can paint almost every team that had some sustained success as "lucky" for a stretch of it...

 

[Psuhockey]

That's some interesting wording to shed Holmgren in a more positive light.

So what you really mean is that Holmgren was Flyers GM for 8 seasons (unless you think being asst. GM for the first 8 games wipes out being GM for the remaining 74 games in 06/07).

*Made it past the 2nd round twice in those 8 seasons* (1 ECF loss, 1 SCF loss.)

2 first round losses.

2 second round losses.

2 missed playoffs.

Finished better than 3rd place in his division *once* in those 8 seasons. (1 first place, 4 third places, two 4th places, and a 5th place.)

Had only 2 100 point teams in those 8 seasons.

And, again, the biggest thing that irks me is the spin that Holmgren "turned around a team with the worst record in the league." Pffft. He inherited a goldmine of a situation for all of the reasons I listed in my previous post. Almost NO GM gets to inherit a situation that flush with assets, young talent, cap space.

And then, through a series of woeful blunders, he proceeded to piss away draft picks, destroy the cap, and by the time he was forced out, he left Hextall with a team in major salary cap trouble and at the bottom of the NHL in prospect rankings. A far cry from the fertile landscape Holmgren himself had inherited 8 years earlier. He was like a tornado that swept through the organization and Hextall was left to repair the damage.

Hextall inherited two of the best players at their position in Giroux and Voracek. He inherited a young Selke level center in Couturier. He inherited the preeminent net front power forward in the game in Simmonds. He inherited an elite puck moving defensemen and power play quarterback in Ghost. He inherited a young power forward in the making in B.Schenn. He inherited highly tradeable assets in Coburn and Timonen. Looks like Hextall inherited a better roster of assets than Holmgren.

Hextall won a lottery to move up to 2nd overall in a two player draft when he had less than a 2% chance of it happening where as Holmgren loss the lottery in a 1 player draft when he had the best odds.

Since you want to bring up assistant GMing, Hextall absolutely contributed to the salary cap trouble since he was here when MacDonald was signed.

Hextall’s record in 4 seasons: two playoff misses and two first round loses.

 

[kudymen]

In other news, this happened.




Edit - darn, cant embed, G won Best dog award among NHLers...

 

[Ghosts Beer]

He took over the worst team in the league and made some pretty good moves and won seven playoff series in seven years. Towards the end he made some bad ones, and one truly terrible one with Bryz.

That implies Holmgren inherited a bad situation, when it's completely the opposite. He inherited about as good of a situation as an incoming GM can possibly inherit. He had the luxury of coming in just as the team was set up beautifully.

I'm not saying didn't make some good moves, but by the end the system was gutted and the cap situation a disaster through horrible mismanagement.

Holmgren traded a 2nd and a 3rd for AMac, then signed him to a 6 year, $30M contract.

Holmgren signed Pronger to the 7-year over 35+ contract blunder that ate up cap space for years until Hextall was able to unload it.

Holmgren had to trade Simon Gagne for Matt Walker and a 4th because he had bungled the cap so badly. The sadder part was that Gagne only had one year left on his $5M contract, and Matt Walker had 3 more at $1.7M per.

Holmgren signed Ilya Bryzgalov to a 9 year contract at $5.67M per, after trading a 3rd rd. pick for his negotiating rights. (People blame it on Snider, but Holmgren is the one targeted Bryz and gave him that ludicrous contract; Snider just demanded he fix the goalie situation; Holmgren was the one who misevaluated Bryz). Thankfully, Holmgren got bailed out by the compliance buyout, or this would still be hurting the Flyers' cap.

Holmgren traded Bobrovsky for a 2nd and two 4ths.

Holmgren traded a 1st rd. pick (John Carlson) for Steve F'ing Eminger and a 3rd.

Holmgren signed Vinny Lecavalier at age 33, after TB bought him out, to a 5 year, $4.5M per contract. One NHL scout, after the signing, was quoted as asking if the Flyers had seen him play lately, and predicted he'd be the first NHLer to be bought out twice following the league's compliance buyouts. Thankfully, Hextall was eventually able to dump this albatross cap hit on LA.

Holmgren traded Upshall and a 2nd rd. pick for Dan Carcillo.

Holmgren traded JVR for Luke F'ing Schenn.

Holmgren signed Matt Read to a 4 year deal at $3.625M per.

Holmgren signed Randy Jones to a 2-year, $2.75M per extension, then waived him, then tried to recall him, and he got claimed and the Flyers ended up with $1.375M in dead cap space.

Holmgren traded the first pick in the 2nd rd. for a few weeks of Martin Biron, who they could have signed for free after the season.

He traded a first rd pick to negotiate with Timonen and Hartnell, who he still could have signed for free in a couple weeks.

Holmgren traded a 1st rd. pick and a 3rd rd. pick for Kris Versteeg.

He traded a 2nd and a 3rd for Nik Grossmann.

He traded a 2nd and a 4th for Pavel Kubina.

He signed Nik Grossmann to a 4 year, $3.5M extension.

He signed Max Talbot to a 5 year, $1.825M deal (to his credit, though, he at least was able to unload Talbot later, but the 5 year deal was ridiculous).

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Hextall inherited two of the best players at their position in Giroux and Voracek. He inherited a young Selke level center in Couturier. He inherited the preeminent net front power forward in the game in Simmonds. He inherited an elite puck moving defensemen and power play quarterback in Ghost. He inherited a young power forward in the making in B.Schenn. He inherited highly tradeable assets in Coburn and Timonen. Looks like Hextall inherited a better roster of assets than Holmgren.

Hextall won a lottery to move up to 2nd overall in a two player draft when he had less than a 2% chance of it happening where as Holmgren loss the lottery in a 1 player draft when he had the best odds.

Since you want to bring up assistant GMing, Hextall absolutely contributed to the salary cap trouble since he was here when MacDonald was signed.

Hextall’s record in 4 seasons: two playoff misses and two first round loses.

Holmgren inherited:
NHL roster:
Simon Gagne (age 26, coming off a 47 goal season);
Jeff Carter (age 21, recent 11th overall pick; ranked as one of top upcoming centers in the NHL);
Mike Richards (age 21, recent 24th overall pick; ranked as one of top upcoming centers in the NHL);
Peter Forsberg (battling injuries, but still a PPG player, considered one of the best in the world, and the most coveted trade deadline asset in years)
Joni Pitkanen (age 22, defenseman coming off 46 pts in 58 games, recent 4th overall pick);
Mike Knuble (coming off a 34 goal season)
RJ Umberger (age 24, coming off a 20 goal season, recent first rd. pick)

I do not think Giroux (declining each season until his rebound this year), Voracek, Couturier, Schenn, Simmonds, Coburn (age 29 & declining), and a 37-year-old Streit tied up for 3 more seasons trump that. The majority of Hextall's roster was veteran trash with terrible contracts.

So, no, it doesn't "look like Hextall inherited a better roster of assets than Holmgren" to me.

You mention Timonen -- he never played a single game for Hextall's teams due to age & injury & it was a miracle the FLyers got what they did out of Chicago. We aren't talking anything in the same stratosphere as Forsberg type value here.

Yes, Ghost was in the Flyers' system, but Giroux was in the Flyers' system when Holmgren took over. Ghost is good, but young Giroux was arguably a top 10 player in the NHL for years.

You mention the 2nd overall pick -- I agree Hextall got lucky on that one. Let's see if he ends up trading it for the equivalent of Luke Schenn. Can't really judge that off one year, and it's not relevant to the roster Hextall inherited.

Anyway, add all of the above to the massive differences in cap situations, and it's pretty clear to me that Hextall took over a significantly more difficult situation than Holmgren did. It's pretty obvious that Holmgren inherited a team set up with the capability to compete immediately, and that Hextall was hamstrung. Give Hextall enough cap room to sign Briere, Timonen, Hartnell, and Biron, and then you can compare how competitive their teams were in their first few seasons.

EDIT: And if you want to blame Hextall for being assistant GM during some of Holmgren's bad signings and moves, then I guess you have to blame Holmgren for the trash moves made while he was assistant GM, such as Kyle Calder, Randy Robitaille, Brian Savage, Geoff Sanderson, Matt Ellison, Nolan Baumgartner, Mark Cullen.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Caps are really lucky to have won last year. Their cap situation began strangling their window shut last summer, and now this summer they might have to cut something like Carlson loose. I'd think they take him over a couple lower guys.

 

[deadhead]

Hextall inherited two of the best players at their position in Giroux and Voracek. He inherited a young Selke level center in Couturier. He inherited the preeminent net front power forward in the game in Simmonds. He inherited an elite puck moving defensemen and power play quarterback in Ghost. He inherited a young power forward in the making in B.Schenn. He inherited highly tradeable assets in Coburn and Timonen. Looks like Hextall inherited a better roster of assets than Holmgren.

Hextall won a lottery to move up to 2nd overall in a two player draft when he had less than a 2% chance of it happening where as Holmgren loss the lottery in a 1 player draft when he had the best odds.

Since you want to bring up assistant GMing, Hextall absolutely contributed to the salary cap trouble since he was here when MacDonald was signed.

Hextall’s record in 4 seasons: two playoff misses and two first round loses.

Giroux and Voracek from 2014 on were not two of the best players at their position.
That wasn't Hextall's fault but it didn't make life easier.
Giroux didn't bounce back until he was moved to LW last season.
Giroux (ES 39, 38, 26), Voracek (ES 48, 32, 38), 2nd line scoring numbers.

Couts was a top defensive center who didn't develop as a scorer until 3 years ago.
Simmonds was a top PP scorer who other than 2015-16 has been a 3rd line ES forward
Schenn has been consistently inconsistent.

It was a good, but not great, forward core that didn't quite fit together.
Other than Schenn and Hartnell, Ron kept it together.
Rest of forwards, Vinnie, Read, Raffl, Downie, Hall, McGinn, Rinaldo, Rosehill, Akeson, VdV, got 2 3rd rd picks out of this group

The defense was old or bad: Streit (36), Kimmo (38), Coburn (28), Meszaros (28), Grossman (29), L Schenn (24) - got a 1st, 2 2nds, 4 3rds, a 4th, a 7th rd picks, Filppula and Gudas for this group
Coburn and L Schnen are 3rd pair defensemen, the rest are out of the league.

Prospect pipeline: Ghost, Laughton, Hagg, Morin, Leier, Cousins.

 

[Psuhockey]

Holmgren inherited:
NHL roster:
Simon Gagne (age 26, coming off a 47 goal season);
Jeff Carter (age 21, recent 11th overall pick; ranked as one of top upcoming centers in the NHL);
Mike Richards (age 21, recent 24th overall pick; ranked as one of top upcoming centers in the NHL);
Peter Forsberg (battling injuries, but still a PPG player, considered one of the best in the world, and the most coveted trade deadline asset in years)
Joni Pitkanen (age 22, defenseman coming off 46 pts in 58 games, recent 4th overall pick);
Mike Knuble (coming off a 34 goal season)
RJ Umberger (age 24, coming off a 20 goal season, recent first rd. pick)

I do not think Giroux (declining each season until his rebound this year), Voracek, Couturier, Schenn, Simmonds, Coburn (age 29 & declining), and a 37-year-old Streit tied up for 3 more seasons trump that. The majority of Hextall's roster was veteran trash with terrible contracts.

So, no, it doesn't "look like Hextall inherited a better roster of assets than Holmgren" to me.

You mention Timonen -- he never played a single game for Hextall's teams due to age & injury & it was a miracle the FLyers got what they did out of Chicago. We aren't talking anything in the same stratosphere as Forsberg type value here.

Yes, Ghost was in the Flyers' system, but Giroux was in the Flyers' system when Holmgren took over. Ghost is good, but young Giroux was arguably a top 10 player in the NHL for years.

You mention the 2nd overall pick -- I agree Hextall got lucky on that one. Let's see if he ends up trading it for the equivalent of Luke Schenn. Can't really judge that off one year, and it's not relevant to the roster Hextall inherited.

Anyway, add all of the above to the massive differences in cap situations, and it's pretty clear to me that Hextall took over a significantly more difficult situation than Holmgren did. It's pretty obvious that Holmgren inherited a team set up with the capability to compete immediately, and that Hextall was hamstrung. Give Hextall enough cap room to sign Briere, Timonen, Hartnell, and Biron, and then you can compare how competitive their teams were in their first few seasons.

EDIT: And if you want to blame Hextall for being assistant GM during some of Holmgren's bad signings and moves, then I guess you have to blame Holmgren for the trash moves made while he was assistant GM, such as Kyle Calder, Randy Robitaille, Brian Savage, Geoff Sanderson, Matt Ellison, Nolan Baumgartner, Mark Cullen.

The only argument you have is cap room. Outside that you picking and choosing without logic like Gagne good at 26 years old and Giroux declining at 26 year old. Giroux was coming off an 86 pt year and a MVP nomination. Holmgren inherited a better prospect pool and more cap space but Hextall inherited a way better roster with guys in there prime. And there is zero question which GM inherited a better defense group.

This is the roster a point totals of the players the season before Hextall took over.

Giroux 28 goals, 86 Pts. 25 years old
Voracek 23 goals 62 pts. 24 years old
Hartnell 20 goals 52 points. 31 years old
Simmonds 29 goals 60 pts. 25 yrs old
Schenn 20 goals 41 pts. 22 years old
Couturier 13 goals 39 points 20 years old

Here’s the defense Corp of that team:
Timonen, Streit, Coburn, L. Schenn, Grossmann and MacDonald added at end of season.

The year Holmgren took over:
Gagne 41 goals 68 pts. 26 years old
Knuble 24 goals 54 pts 34 years old
Forsberg 11 goals 40 pts (half of season with foot problems). 33 yers old
Richards 10 goals 32 pts. 21 years old
Carter 14 goals 37 pts 21 years old
Umberger 16 goals 28 pts 24 years old

Defense Corp: Pitkanen, Randy Jones, Alexander Picard, Darian Hatcher and a group of crap consisting of Zhitnik, Freddy Meyer and Dennis Gauthier

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/ottawa-senators-a-strange-twitter-account.2503085/

 

[Curufinwe]

Kimmo never played for the Flyers under Hextall due to the blood clot. That's why he went out and signed MDZ for one year at $1.3m. Despite him not playing all season, Hextall still turned 40 year old Kimmo into two 2nds.

Hextall inherited a better defense, but it wasn't a good defense, and they were also a much more expensive defense. So he spent the first two years figuring out a way to dump the contracts of Grossmann and Pronger and LSchenn. And of Vinny, of course.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/ottawa-senators-a-strange-twitter-account.2503085/

It's #BurnerAccountSZN

 

[Psuhockey]

Kimmo never played for the Flyers under Hextall due to the blood clot. That's why he went out and signed MDZ at $1.3m. Despite him not playing all season, Hextall still turned 40 year old Kimmo into two 2nds.

Hextall inherited a better defense, but they were also a much more expensive defense. So he spent the first two years figuring out a way to dump the contracts of Grossmann and LSchenn. And of Vinny.

Holmgren did run up the cap but also had a ton of success. People want to excuse that away and give him no credit while gladly looking the other way and blaming Hextall’s lack of success so far on him as well. That’s a crappy argument. If Hextall just mimics the same playoff success as Holmgren over the next 7 years, people will be raving about him and it would of taken him a lot longer to get there.

 

[Angry Hockey Dad]

I saw someone suggesting the Flyers give up Frost, Sanheim, 2019 1st round and 2019 3 round for Karlsson. I laugh

 

[Curufinwe]

No one will be raving unless he wins a Cup.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

It's #BurnerAccountSZN

The Flyers have one on here.

 

[Curufinwe]

Hextall inherited two of the best players at their position in Giroux and Voracek. He inherited a young Selke level center in Couturier. He inherited the preeminent net front power forward in the game in Simmonds. He inherited an elite puck moving defensemen and power play quarterback in Ghost. He inherited a young power forward in the making in B.Schenn. He inherited highly tradeable assets in Coburn and Timonen. Looks like Hextall inherited a better roster of assets than Holmgren.

Up front Holmgren inherited Gagne, Knuble, Richards, Carter, Umberger, Giroux and the 2nd overall pick which he used on JVR. That was a ton of forward talent to start off with, as well as the highly tradeable asset of Peter Forsberg.