Miscellaneous NHL Discussion LVIII: May-June edition

[Psuhockey]

I'm all for tanking when it's appropriate, but the notion that you need to tank to be competitive is not a reality. Stars don't swing the needle in hockey like they do in basketball. In basketball tanking is a necessity. In hockey it is not. You need good players to be a contender. There's more than one way to get them. This league is ripe for taking advantage of incompetent managers. Of the four majors, it's probably the easiest league to field a consistent competitor because of that alone.

Who has been a more consistent contender since they entered the league than Vegas? Not only are they not getting contributions from a top 5 pick, this year they got a combined 79 games from players they drafted...in any round and those players were playing depth roles for them.

Boston? They are carried by 4 homegrown stars. None of which were drafted inside the top 10 and two who were drafted outside of the first round (Krejci also for a decade+).

Is Carolina a contender because they lucked into jumping up 9 spots to select Svechnikov or because they found a superstar center in the second round, acquired a Norris-caliber defensemen (two actually) for a couple failed first round picks, found two more top 4 studs in the mid-rounds, bought low on several players, and found every tactical advantage to outshoot and outchance their opponents better than every other team in the league?

Yeah Colorado and Toronto are great examples of the other side (the Flyers had a chance to select two of Colorado's stars and didn't ftr) but they are among the better well runs teams in the league. If Toronto is not at the top (with Carolina) they are right there. They are doing everything right. Those teams hit homeruns with every single one of their top picks.

Instead of planning a tank, how about this team find it's Morey instead of recycling through the HockeyGuy recycling bin? Midseason no less.

How often are centers the quality of Aho found in the 2nd round?

 

[tucson83]

When Fletcher was hired, no, I did not think or expect his job to be to build a team (Meaning assemble the main core of a competitor). I thought he was inheriting a young group/prospect pool ready to be one. And his main role would be to "put the cherry on top" once those pieces were playing in the NHL.

Now, in 2021, that "core" has questionable potential. And since it isn't Fletcher's core, I don't blame him for that.

I agree that if we do have to rebuild, we're screwed. Drafting and development can't be trusted here (If this core does totally fail). Which is why I think people are a bit hesitant to blame the players.

and what i like to know is what moves to the roster do you want fletch to do to make this team a competitor right now? that's what i want to know.

 

[Beef Invictus]

and what i like to know is what moves to the roster do you want fletch to do to make this team a competitor right now? that's what i want to know.

There is no making this team a competitor "right now." There are too many question marks, and too much incompetence above the players. I don't think anyone is arguing with that expectation.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

So... who’s going to win tonight?

 

[Tripod]

No, I said very clearly that trading for BOTH Grant and Thompson was wasteful and stupid. You're arguing a point I didn't say. I've always been fine with Grant alone, but distinctly scornful of getting both Grant and Thompson.

ok...but when you read what you said, it certainly can be read as signing both Grant and Thompson was stupid.

We agree.

 

[FLYguy3911]

How often are centers the quality of Aho found in the 2nd round?

Not often but why does Carolina seem to keep finding these guys? They got Slavin and Pesce in the 3rd and 4th rounds of back-to-back drafts. How often are the quality of those players available in that range of the draft?

Carolina is definitely one of those teams that consistently takes advantage of other bad managers. Aho had no business falling where he did. He was one of the top players on a top team playing a full pro season in his draft year as a young 17 year old. A dominant junior player the year prior. Played on the u20 squad as an underager. They don't galaxy brain things. They just do what the rest of the league should be doing.

Trocheck, Teravainen, Hamilton...

On a lesser scale they traded another failed 1st rounder for Joey Keane who has been one of the better young (RH) defensemen in the AHL.

They are the NHL's version of the Rays.

 

[Tripod]

Not one person has blamed Hextall for the Penguins' elimination.

I have seen some Pens fans that wanted him to do more at the deadline....so I am sure those people are not happy today.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I have seen some Pens fans that wanted him to do more at the deadline....so I am sure those people are not happy today.

What more was he to do? Carter was a home run acquisition.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I have seen some Pens fans that wanted him to do more at the deadline....so I am sure those people are not happy today.

I can’t speak for Pens’ fans. I was just talking about on this board. Hextall actually made a good move adding Jeff Carter, & he’s too new to deserve the “blame” for their exit. That said, he still is yet to win a playoff round as a GM.

 

[deadhead]

Not often but why does Carolina seem to keep finding these guys? They got Slavin and Pesce in the 3rd and 4th rounds of back-to-back drafts. How often are the quality of those players available in that range of the draft?

Carolina is definitely one of those teams that consistently takes advantage of other bad managers. Aho had no business falling where he did. He was one of the top players on a top team playing a full pro season in his draft year as a young 17 year old. A dominant junior player the year prior. Played on the u20 squad as an underager. They don't galaxy brain things. They just do what the rest of the league should be doing.

Trocheck, Teravainen, Hamilton...

On a lesser scale they traded another failed 1st rounder for Joey Keane who has been one of the better young (RH) defensemen in the AHL.

They are the NHL's version of the Rays.

I dunno.
Finding Myers and Zamula in free agency.
Trading up for Wisdom in the 4th rd.
Allison in the late 2nd, Lindblom in the 5th, Hart in the 2nd, Ghost in the 3rd, Laczynski in the 6th.

However, when you build teams that way, it generally takes longer, b/c the reason players like that are often available is they're flawed or physically immature, and it generally takes longer for them to develop, 22-24 years old v the high 1st rd picks who often make their mark at 19-20.

Carolina also blew a lot of picks/players, they didn't "find" Hamilton, he cost Hanifan (#5) and Lindholm (#5). They used #7 picks on Skinner and Fleury and got almost nothing for them. But if you can find 2-3 starters every draft, you'll develop the system depth to walk away from mistakes.

Aho was #35, 2015
Point #79, 2014
Guentzel #77, 2013
Kucherov #58, 2011
There's that one guy who comes out of "nowhere" about every draft, and 2-3 others who were 1st rd worthy.

 

[Flyerfan4life]

Today I learned that losing to the eventual winner means you're good.

somebody posted yest. that losing in the SC final is the same as winning..

LOL.. everyone gets a ribbon

 

[Psuhockey]

Not often but why does Carolina seem to keep finding these guys? They got Slavin and Pesce in the 3rd and 4th rounds of back-to-back drafts. How often are the quality of those players available in that range of the draft?

Carolina is definitely one of those teams that consistently takes advantage of other bad managers. Aho had no business falling where he did. He was one of the top players on a top team playing a full pro season in his draft year as a young 17 year old. A dominant junior player the year prior. Played on the u20 squad as an underager. They don't galaxy brain things. They just do what the rest of the league should be doing.

Trocheck, Teravainen, Hamilton...

On a lesser scale they traded another failed 1st rounder for Joey Keane who has been one of the better young (RH) defensemen in the AHL.

They are the NHL's version of the Rays.

Carolina is a well run organization and the rest of the league is full of teams who aren’t. It will interesting if they can finally get over the hump and win a cup. But finding a superstar center in the 2nd round is a low probability event. The odds are better at the top of the draft. As you said you can win a cup without superstars but the vast majority of cup winners have superstars so the odds are better when you have those players.

I fully advocate for the Flyers to go down to Raleigh and throw bags of money at Eric Tulsky. If they can’t outspend small markets for players they should outbid them on personnel and scouts. But that happening is also a low probability event. With how this franchise is run and will likely be run for the foreseeable future, I think tanking gives them the best odds of building a Stanley cup winning team.

 

[deeshamrock]

well now there is a stellar decision that will turn the series around....

 

[Striiker]

smh should’ve added performance clauses to that trade

Way to go Chuck

 

[BritainStix]

There is no making this team a competitor "right now." There are too many question marks, and too much incompetence above the players. I don't think anyone is arguing with that expectation.

That's not true at all. Vegas became a competitor picking second rate players from around the league in a single season.

 

[Striiker]

There is no making this team a competitor "right now." There are too many question marks, and too much incompetence above the players. I don't think anyone is arguing with that expectation.

I think someone could... but that person is not Fletcher.

 

[Beef Invictus]

That's not true at all. Vegas became a competitor picking second rate players from around the league in a single season.

Good coaching goes a long way, doesn't it?

We aren't getting that. So it's not possible.

I think someone could... but that person is not Fletcher.

Yep. This management with these coaches? Not happening.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

What moves can the Flyers make that makes the team competitive right now?

Because, going into the 2020/21 season, there was a good argument they were there already.

These last two years have been absolutely awful for evaluating almost everything, especially for a team lingering in purgatory of not being in the upper echelon of the league, nor rotting in the basement.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Good coaching goes a long way, doesn't it?

We aren't getting that. So it's not possible.

Ah, so Vigneault getting good goaltending in Vancouver and New York = he was a bad coach, goaltending carried him to a good record.

But Gallant getting a .927 save percentage from Marc Andre Fleury = the team's record was due to good coaching, goaltending didn't carry him.

Gotcha. Seems like an evenhanded analysis.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Ah, so Vigneault getting good goaltending in Vancouver and New York = he was a bad coach, goaltending carried him to a good record.

But Gallant getting a .927 save percentage from Marc Andre Fleury = the team's record was due to good coaching, goaltending didn't carry him.

Gotcha. Seems like an evenhanded analysis.

No, AV was not a bad coach because he got good goaltending nor have I ever claimed that, nor have I ever discounted MAF's impact in Vegas. What even is this?

I've described the many ways AV is deficient many times now, and practically all of them are independent of what the goalie is doing.

 

[Magua]

That's not true at all. Vegas became a competitor picking second rate players from around the league in a single season.

Vegas got lucky. Tallon gifted them 2/3 of a top line, Karlsson magically transformed into a 1B-type center, Fleury had the best season of his career at that point, they hit some nice home runs in Schmidt, Theodore (who would get better), Tuch/Haula (hey, Chuck!). Yes, they made the Cup Final, but it wasn't sustainable. It was a Cinderella story. Statistically, they played like a bubble team, not a perennial contender.

I wonder how many teams would've just mostly ran it back and bought their own hype? The next season, Vegas went from 14th to 3rd in xGF% at 5v5. They traded for Pacioretty before the season, although that came at a futures cost. Signed Stastny. At the deadline, they f***ing cashed in and traded and signed (stole!) the best all-around winger in the league, Mark Stone. Mark Stone! Next season? Fleury was in the dumps......trade for Lehner. Next off-season? They sign the biggest fish on the market: Pietrangelo. They've built a self-sustaining system where top players actively want to play there by striking when the iron was hot and not being self-satisfied. Also, good coaching. Sounds like the Flyers.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

smh should’ve added performance clauses to that trade

Way to go Chuck

Seriously?

 

[Striiker]

Seriously?

Joking

 

[Magua]

Why is the best game on at 9:30? Lame.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

I have to wake up to damn early to stay up and watch all these games. Provided no early game goes OT I can probably squeeze in the 7:00/7:30 starts.