Miscellaneous NHL Discussion LVIII: May-June edition

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Curufinwe

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Feb 28, 2013
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Trading for Raffl was a waste of a 5th for the Caps. Every rental trade made by 15/16 teams is a waste.
 
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Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
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This is such a lame conversation. Even if Fletcher had won a Cup in Minnesota, there's no reason to assume that would happen again. The fact the Wild didn't one, doesn't mean he won't win in the future here or somewhere else. That's not how any of this works.

When a GM pursues habits that make winning harder it's really safe to assume they aren't moving closer to winning.
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
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People are blaming Hextall for the Penguins' elimination? I mean, of course some are, but seriously? The only thing Hextall could have done to improve their chances was strap on the pads and replace Jarry himself.
Not one person has blamed Hextall for the Penguins' elimination.
 

Beef Invictus

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You're splitting microscopic hairs over Grant and Thompson. The horror of adding perceived depth at the deadline prior to our run at the #1 seed. The trade market was corrupted this season, with Raffl and others. I don't consider giving Laughton term as making him a "core player." If you like him, you keep him. He isn't 40 years old. And it isn't what "mires you in mediocrity," either. What does that is having a bad (actual) core.

I am not concerned with what he did in Minnesota. As demonstrated, GMs lose until they win. You can likely find these "bleeding value" trades from every single GM in the league.

I would have liked to see a coaching staff change too. That was a mistake on his part. But we still have bigger fish to fry.

It is just a matter of different perceptions. I don't think this team's success boils down to the minutia of Fletcher's moves until the inherited Hextall core actually plays to their value. And if that doesn't happen soon, Fletcher is going to have to pull the plug.

We should be concerned with what he did in Minnesota. It's crazy to just ignore that.

I mean, people said the same thing about AV and his past tenures and in the end he proved he was still exactly what he always was. With Fletcher proving the same, why should we ignore that?

Geez, and I was called naive.
 

mja

Everything was beautiful, and nothing hurt
Jan 7, 2005
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If the premise is that Fletch can backass his way into a cup-contending season, sure, shit GM's have won it all before. Maybe Patrick is a different player with a full summer to get up to speed, maybe Sanheim fully breaks out, maybe Hart wins a Vezina, maybe Giroux pots another PPG season, maybe, maybe, maybe. But hell, if that's the path you actively choose, then what's the point? Shouldn't we have higher expectations?
 

Redpath

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Sep 30, 2011
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We should be concerned with what he did in Minnesota. It's crazy to just ignore that.

I mean, people said the same thing about AV and his past tenures and in the end he proved he was still exactly what he always was. With Fletcher proving the same, why should we ignore that?

Geez, and I was called naive.

People also said the same thing about Quenneville’s past tenures. And Lombardi’s. Are we going to go in this same circle all day?
 

Beef Invictus

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People also said the same thing about Quenneville’s past tenures. And Lombardi’s. Are we going to go in this same circle all day?

I guess we are.

Fletcher has shown only that he will build a team to mediocrity. He's showing more of the same now. Nothing with this team has changed or is changing, it's insane to expect a sudden different result.
 

Beef Invictus

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If the premise is that Fletch can backass his way into a cup-contending season, sure, shit GM's have won it all before. Maybe Patrick is a different player with a full summer to get up to speed, maybe Sanheim fully breaks out, maybe Hart wins a Vezina, maybe Giroux pots another PPG season, maybe, maybe, maybe. But hell, if that's the path you actively choose, then what's the point? Shouldn't we have higher expectations?

I tend to believe pursuing the most competent and efficient path possible instead of hanging on and hoping luck takes over is a more reliable path.
 

Redpath

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I guess we are.

Fletcher has shown only that he will build a team to mediocrity. He's showing more of the same now. Nothing with this team has changed or is changing, it's insane to expect a sudden different result.

And this is what I was saying with differences in perception. Fletcher’s job isn’t to build a team. He was hired to put the cherry on top. Which is why our real issues aren’t trading a 4th for Derek Grant or Hagg’s minutes.
 

Beef Invictus

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And this is what I was saying with differences in perception. Fletcher’s job isn’t to build a team. He was hired to put the cherry on top. Which is why our real issues aren’t trading a 4th for Derek Grant or Hagg’s minutes.

When you think the cherry on top is Hayes or Grant or Gus or Core Player Scott Laughton then that's a pretty massive problem
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
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It is miraculous how when Fletcher was hired, the perception was that he was inheriting Hextall's core on the cusp of breaking out. And now that the core clearly is not ready to do so, it is Fletcher's fault for not totally rebuilding our core in 2~ years.

Sure is.

And I've gone through the long, detailed list of coaches and GMs who didn't win the Cup in their first job and/or took a number of years before winning the Cup several times. History is replete with examples.

But these facts just get ignored for the completely lazy, erroneous, and nonsensical narrative that if you don't win a Cup at your first NHL job, and do so within a relatively short period of time, you aren't worth hiring and aren't going to win a Cup in the future.
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
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He was supposed to build an entire team in 2 years? Would you have been fine with him chalking up the young guys as under-performers in 2019? These things are only becoming evident now.
Not to mention he's only had ONE legitimate offseason. ONE. Because of Covid, shortened season, flat-cap, and expansion draft. And also not to mention that if he started breaking up Hextall's young "core" before this season the same people who are criticizing him would have thrown a hissy fit. Hell, suggest he trade some of Hextall's young core this offseason and these same posters are extremely hesitant.

Talk about cognitive dissonance.
 

Beef Invictus

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He was supposed to build an entire team in 2 years? Would you have been fine with him chalking up the young guys as under-performers in 2019? These things are only becoming evident now.

I'm trying to clarify. You said it's not his job to build the team, but to put the cherry on top, but now it's his job to build the team too.

Not that the distinction matters. He's gonna fail either way. Especially since having to build the team means the Hextall era was such a failure that our scouting and development-related staff should all be purged and none of that is really happening, so the most likely path will be more of the same.
 

FLYguy3911

Sanheim Lover
Oct 19, 2006
52,628
85,326
I'm all for tanking when it's appropriate, but the notion that you need to tank to be competitive is not a reality. Stars don't swing the needle in hockey like they do in basketball. In basketball tanking is a necessity. In hockey it is not. You need good players to be a contender. There's more than one way to get them. This league is ripe for taking advantage of incompetent managers. Of the four majors, it's probably the easiest league to field a consistent competitor because of that alone.

Who has been a more consistent contender since they entered the league than Vegas? Not only are they not getting contributions from a top 5 pick, this year they got a combined 79 games from players they drafted...in any round and those players were playing depth roles for them.

Boston? They are carried by 4 homegrown stars. None of which were drafted inside the top 10 and two who were drafted outside of the first round (Krejci also for a decade+).

Is Carolina a contender because they lucked into jumping up 9 spots to select Svechnikov or because they found a superstar center in the second round, acquired a Norris-caliber defensemen (two actually) for a couple failed first round picks, found two more top 4 studs in the mid-rounds, bought low on several players, and found every tactical advantage to outshoot and outchance their opponents better than every other team in the league?

Yeah Colorado and Toronto are great examples of the other side (the Flyers had a chance to select two of Colorado's stars and didn't ftr) but they are among the better well runs teams in the league. If Toronto is not at the top (with Carolina) they are right there. They are doing everything right. Those teams hit homeruns with every single one of their top picks.

Instead of planning a tank, how about this team find it's Morey instead of recycling through the HockeyGuy recycling bin? Midseason no less.
 

Ghosts Beer

I saw Goody Fletcher with the Devil!
Feb 10, 2014
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Just last night you were gloating about Hextall having another first round exit. That implies blame.
Stating he still hasn't won a playoff round as a GM was simply stating a fact. I didn't blame him for the Penguins exit. That's you projecting.
 

Redpath

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Sep 30, 2011
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I'm trying to clarify. You said it's not his job to build the team, but to put the cherry on top, but now it's his job to build the team too.

Not that the distinction matters. He's gonna fail either way. Especially since having to build the team means the Hextall era was such a failure that our scouting and development-related staff should all be purged and none of that is really happening, so the most likely path will be more of the same.

When Fletcher was hired, no, I did not think or expect his job to be to build a team (Meaning assemble the main core of a competitor). I thought he was inheriting a young group/prospect pool ready to be one. And his main role would be to "put the cherry on top" once those pieces were playing in the NHL.

Now, in 2021, that "core" has questionable potential. And since it isn't Fletcher's core, I don't blame him for that.

I agree that if we do have to rebuild, we're screwed. Drafting and development can't be trusted here (If this core does totally fail). Which is why I think people are a bit hesitant to blame the players.
 

Amorgus

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Sep 22, 2017
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Rochester NY
Fletcher trying to improve on Hextall's team is like when you're a kid making a broken G.I. Joe figure hump a generic dollar store fireman figure. Both pieces suck and ramming them together is only amusing for so long before you just throw them both out. But Fletcher may be the kid on the short bus who thinks his fireman toy is kickin' rad.
 
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Beef Invictus

Revolutionary Positivity
Dec 21, 2009
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When Fletcher was hired, no, I did not think or expect his job to be to build a team (Meaning assemble the main core of a competitor). I thought he was inheriting a young group/prospect pool ready to be one. And his main role would be to "put the cherry on top" once those pieces were playing in the NHL.

Now, in 2021, that "core" has questionable potential. And since it isn't Fletcher's core, I don't blame him for that.

I agree that if we do have to rebuild, we're screwed. Drafting and development can't be trusted here (If this core does totally fail). Which is why I think people are a bit hesitant to blame the players.


And this is yet another concern I have with Fletcher; if our drafting and developing has failed this hard, then we shouldn't be moving ahead as if they haven't.

Likewise on the coaching front. MT and Yeo are here...why? Dillabaugh remains...why? What does Lappy do?
 
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