Miscellaneous NHL Discussion LVII: Countdown to June 2nd and the draft lottery

[Beef Invictus]

The system was fine last season when they were running on all cylinders & kicking ass from mid-January through mid-March when the Covid halt hit.

AV’s system is demanding. Players need to be in great shape, & it takes a lot of practice & repetition to make the instantaneous reads. Players lost their conditioning due to Covid, & the lack of practice also killed them in relearning the system, & many players resorted to bad habits.

Additionally, most of their missed passes & fumbled pucks had absolutely nothing to do with systems. We’re talking about simple plays that they were unable to execute on a regular basis beginning with the bubble.

If the conditioning killed them, how come they were routinely at their best in the 3rd?

Practice had nothing to do with it. Once they had time to practice, nothing changed. A good coach can make changes to how a team plays during intermission. Practice was a weak excuse that evaporated.

The system last season was very different, focusing a lot more on puck control and setting up chances at the net rather than banging around the boards. Unfortunately, what we know from his time in NY, what we saw this year is most likely what AV prefers most. The guy isn't an unknown quantity.

 

[BernieParent]

You got me on JVR, Couturier, and Voracek, though, still Voracek was 7 and Couturier 8, and JVR's game isn't puck movement, unlike most #2 overall picks. Point being, the Flyers don't have the skill level of the Leafs' top players of Matthews, Tavares, Marner, Rielly, and Nylander.

I can't disagree, which reflects not only the draft positioning but also the drafting and trade philosophies of the two organizations: high-octane offense versus two-way play. These same top-ranked Leafs have been widely criticized for ignoring defense and falling flat in the playoffs because of it over the past few years. They are faring much better in the postseason, at least so far, because they have addressed the lineup imbalance. And they are playing the Canadiens. We shall see how much Matthews and Marner can tear up an opponent that plays a stronger defensive game.

But I'll get back to my main point: constant movement and short passing options is an offensive system that doesn't require superstars. It is absolutely made to look wonderful when you have Matthew and Marner or McDavid and Draisaitl, but even a middle-of-the-road team can improve their scoring chances when they focus on working the puck into high-danger zones and finding defensive pockets, rather than a point shot through traffic as Plan A.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

A preview of things to come!

 

[Beef Invictus]

How the mighty have fallen

No, he did not make that clear. The second he began slamming McDavid for intangibles because McDavid didn't do magic he made it quite unclear, in fact.

 

[Striiker]

How the mighty have fallen

RIP Billy

Absolute perfection

 

[DancingPanther]

They're paving the road outside our house and I'll be damned if this thing isn't just a road zamboni

 

[Rebels57]

As a Canadian and avid Leaf hater, it has brought me much joy that this is how the playoffs ended for Toronto the last time they won a series:



It crushes me that they have been gifted a path to the final 4 and, with luck, could have another muffin series in the semis.

The only reason I don't mind as much this year is Wayne Train.

I'd like to see him experience a deep run after the garbage he had to put up with here and his brinf stint with the Devils.

 

[ajgoal]

They're paving the road outside our house and I'll be damned if this thing isn't just a road zamboni

Are we neighbors?

 

[Flyerfan4life]

RIP Billy

Absolute perfection

sometimes i wonder if these "social media" people even look at what they typed and think about it, before hitting send..

 

[Beef Invictus]

They're paving the road outside our house and I'll be damned if this thing isn't just a road zamboni

If you lay underneath it you won't have to watch the Flyers get Flutchered anymore.

 

[DancingPanther]

If you lay underneath it you won't have to watch the Flyers get Flutchered anymore.

Or go to work. Or deal with the constant struggle of reacclimating myself to the crushing reality of conscious experience.

Don't tempt me

 

[DancingPanther]

Are we neighbors?

I suspect not, but wouldn't that be wild

 

[ajgoal]

I suspect not, but wouldn't that be wild

That would be one way to describe it.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

If the conditioning killed them, how come they were routinely at their best in the 3rd?

Practice had nothing to do with it. Once they had time to practice, nothing changed. A good coach can make changes to how a team plays during intermission. Practice was a weak excuse that evaporated.

The system last season was very different, focusing a lot more on puck control and setting up chances at the net rather than banging around the boards. Unfortunately, what we know from his time in NY, what we saw this year is most likely what AV prefers most. The guy isn't an unknown quantity.

Because they got behind so often and their opponents were playing it safer to not concede quick goals.

"Practice had nothing to do with it"? Puh-lease. You can tell players to do things until you're blue in the face. Until it becomes muscle memory through practice and repetition, it's meaningless. Practice means a TON when you're trying to break a team of bad habits and instill proper reads and muscle memory. To contend otherwise is simply wrong.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Because they got behind so often and their opponents were playing it safer to not concede quick goals.

"Practice had nothing to do with it"? Puh-lease. You can tell players to do things until you're blue in the face. Until it becomes muscle memory through practice and repetition, it's meaningless. Practice means a TON when you're trying to break a team of bad habits and instill proper reads and muscle memory. To contend otherwise is simply wrong.

They were doing the same dumbass nonsense in every other month outside of March. When they had practice time, they didn't change. It scuttles the "practice" excuse immediately. If lack of practice were the problem, then we'd have seen changes once they could practice. We did not.

Even when they started games with the lead or were playing tied, they were doing the same dumb stuff with the same dumb results, so that sinks score effects as a theory too.

They had a particular game their coaches wanted them to play and they played it all year long.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I can't disagree, which reflects not only the draft positioning but also the drafting and trade philosophies of the two organizations: high-octane offense versus two-way play. These same top-ranked Leafs have been widely criticized for ignoring defense and falling flat in the playoffs because of it over the past few years. They are faring much better in the postseason, at least so far, because they have addressed the lineup imbalance. And they are playing the Canadiens. We shall see how much Matthews and Marner can tear up an opponent that plays a stronger defensive game.

But I'll get back to my main point: constant movement and short passing options is an offensive system that doesn't require superstars. It is absolutely made to look wonderful when you have Matthew and Marner or McDavid and Draisaitl, but even a middle-of-the-road team can improve their scoring chances when they focus on working the puck into high-danger zones and finding defensive pockets, rather than a point shot through traffic as Plan A.

Usually you only get those high-octane elite offensive talents in the top several picks, if that. I think it's less about drafting philosophy than drafting location. Granted, I pushed hard for Barzal at #7, but it was pretty much guaranteed the Flyers were taking a D due to need, and I understood that.

I think you are minimizing the talent it takes to execute a passing/puck carrying game in the offensive zone in the NHL. Even skilled players like Konecny end up botching things more often than not when trying to get too fancy in the offensive zone. Bam -- turnover and odd-man rush the other way. Having even lesser skilled players try to play that game is a recipe for disaster. The NHL is a north-south game except for the rare few players who can play a puck control game 5 on 5.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

They were doing the same dumbass nonsense in every other month outside of March. When they had practice time, they didn't change. It scuttles the "practice" excuse immediately. If lack of practice were the problem, then we'd have seen changes once they could practice. We did not.

Even when they started games with the lead or were playing tied, they were doing the same dumb stuff with the same dumb results, so that sinks score effects as a theory too.

They had a particular game their coaches wanted them to play and they played it all year long.

Um, it takes more than one or two practices and one or two lessons to break bad habits and establish proper muscle memory. They barely had any practice time this season, particularly after Tahoe, and a couple on ice sessions in March aren't enough to fix everything with a snap of the fingers. Not to mention they had some of the worst goaltending in the HISTORY of the NHL in March.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Um, it takes more than one or two practices and one or two lessons to break bad habits and establish proper muscle memory. They barely had any practice time this season, particularly after Tahoe, and a couple on ice sessions in March aren't enough to fix everything with a snap of the fingers. Not to mention they had some of the worst goaltending in the HISTORY of the NHL in March.

They had practice before Tahoe. They were doing the exact same stuff before. Once they could practice routinely through the end of the year (well more than once or twice) they continued doing the same stuff.

NHL teams with competent coaching can make significant changes during intermissions. They had ample time before and after the hard stretch to make changes and they didn't.

This was what the coaches wanted. Or they're incredibly incompetent. Then again, both outcomes mean they're incompetent.

 

[Surrounded By Ahos]

They happened to find a coach who knows what to do with their roster too, and willing to let players play to their strengths rather than demolishing them. As I've said for years, coaching is mega important. Especially so in the cap era.

The Flyers have shown no indication that they're interested in finding quality coaching. Coaching for this team exists to perpetuate the Hockey Guy Country Club.

To be fair, we got lucky with Brindy. I doubt he gets picked as head coach unless he already spent 15+ years with the franchise. (also, as an aside, check out the initial response from HFCanes to the hiring, which just proves that we are all morons who know nothing: Confirmed with Link: - Brind'Amour named head coach )


But yeah, Rod's been sensational. He's got all the guys motivated and pulling in the same direction. The defensemen know that they can jump up into the play more often than not because Brindy has drilled the need to support the defense and back-check into the forwards. Which allows the team to mount incredible pressure in the offensive zone. There's a trust there that the other guy is gonna have your back.


Speaking of trust, Rod trusts the players to go out there and take risks to make plays. He knows you need to take risks in order to generate chances, and he's not gonna bench or punish guys for making a bad play, so long as they put in the work to make up for it. Shit, look at Necas' second goal last night. There's a very good chance he gets stripped of the puck in the neutral zone when he makes his cute little deke, but he still had the confidence to try the move, and it paid off and led to an overtime win eventually. It would have been very easy to just dump that puck in and go chasing (Necas is probably quick enough to get there first, tbh), but instead Necas knew his coach has faith in his ability to go out there and take risks.


Just like Hakstol always seemed to get the very least out of his players, Rod seems to be getting the best. Jordan Staal has had a Brind'amour-esque resurgence this season. Guys like Aho, Teravainen and Necas are playing fairly significant minutes on the penalty kill, and are making opposing powerplays look foolish using their smarts and speed. When Teravinen got injured early in the year, it would have been very easy to just stick a gritty tuff grinder next to Aho and Svech, but he let Necas get those minutes, and it led to Necas playing the best hockey of his life.



tl;dr: Brindy good

 

[FlyerNutter]

If you lay underneath it you won't have to watch the Flyers get Flutchered anymore.

 

[Beef Invictus]

To be fair, we got lucky with Brindy. I doubt he gets picked as head coach unless he already spent 15+ years with the franchise. (also, as an aside, check out the initial response from HFCanes to the hiring, which just proves that we are all morons who know nothing: Confirmed with Link: - Brind'Amour named head coach )


But yeah, Rod's been sensational. He's got all the guys motivated and pulling in the same direction. The defensemen know that they can jump up into the play more often than not because Brindy has drilled the need to support the defense and back-check into the forwards. Which allows the team to mount incredible pressure in the offensive zone. There's a trust there that the other guy is gonna have your back.


Speaking of trust, Rod trusts the players to go out there and take risks to make plays. He knows you need to take risks in order to generate chances, and he's not gonna bench or punish guys for making a bad play, so long as they put in the work to make up for it. Shit, look at Necas' second goal last night. There's a very good chance he gets stripped of the puck in the neutral zone when he makes his cute little deke, but he still had the confidence to try the move, and it paid off and led to an overtime win eventually. It would have been very easy to just dump that puck in and go chasing (Necas is probably quick enough to get there first, tbh), but instead Necas knew his coach has faith in his ability to go out there and take risks.


Just like Hakstol always seemed to get the very least out of his players, Rod seems to be getting the best. Jordan Staal has had a Brind'amour-esque resurgence this season. Guys like Aho, Teravainen and Necas are playing fairly significant minutes on the penalty kill, and are making opposing powerplays look foolish using their smarts and speed. When Teravinen got injured early in the year, it would have been very easy to just stick a gritty tuff grinder next to Aho and Svech, but he let Necas get those minutes, and it led to Necas playing the best hockey of his life.



tl;dr: Brindy good

To be more fair, that sort of nepotism usually ends in total disaster especially when the new coach is completely new to head coaching. When we tried it with Berube and his minimal HC experience he was completely swamped and over his head. We might rush Lappy down this path, and that's certain to be a disaster too.

Rod is a unicorn in this regard, and teams will see him as confirmation that their old boys clubs are the ideal path instead of noticing he's a glaring exception the rule.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

They had practice before Tahoe. They were doing the exact same stuff before. Once they could practice routinely through the end of the year (well more than once or twice) they continued doing the same stuff.

NHL teams with competent coaching can make significant changes during intermissions. They had ample time before and after the hard stretch to make changes and they didn't.

This was what the coaches wanted. Or they're incredibly incompetent. Then again, both outcomes means they're incompetent.

Just stop. You are completely misrepresenting the amount of practice time they had this season. It was minimal. They had an abbreviated camp. Got slammed with a Covid pause a couple weeks into the shortened season. Then had almost zero practice time until the season was essentially over in March -- a few practices aren't going to solve anything at that point, and there's no getting over historically bad goaltending, regardless.

You're acting like coaches can install systems and fix bad habits with a few words and diagrams and a snap of the fingers. That's laughable. You said you've coached before, if you have you should know it's a season-long process. That's why in AV's first season they started off slow but got going by mid-January and from the end of January until the March COVID halt they were flying and nearly unbeatable. It took time for the team to get on the same page and make the systems and reads become second nature.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Just stop. You are completely misrepresenting the amount of practice time they had this season. It was minimal. They had an abbreviated camp. Got slammed with a Covid pause a couple weeks into the shortened season. Then had almost zero practice time until the season was essentially over in March -- a few practices aren't going to solve anything at that point, and there's no getting over historically bad goaltending, regardless.

You're acting like coaches can install systems and fix bad habits with a few words and diagrams and a snap of the fingers. That's laughable. You said you've coached before, if you have you should know it's a season-long process. That's why in AV's first season they started off slow but got going by mid-January and from the end of January until the March COVID halt they were flying and nearly unbeatable. It took time for the team to get on the same page and make the systems and reads become second nature.

They had time. Nothing changed. We've watched teams adapt to us during intermissions and time outs. On our end, there was almost no adjustment. That's really glaring, especially when what they're doing is fundamentally broken. Additionally, they way they played happened to match the way AV liked to have NY play. That's a hell of a coincidence.

Maybe throwing out that system from last year after they go used to it was a bad idea? Especially with this lack of time. You're helping prove my point regarding their incompetence, thank you.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Numerous teams faced similar hardships. Why weren't they slaughtered so severely?

Why was Laviolette able to have the Caps switched almost completely over to his system before the season started? It was a drastic shift, too. How come they did it and our coaches were too worthless to manage?

 

[Rebels57]

To be more fair, that sort of nepotism usually ends in total disaster especially when the new coach is completely new to head coaching. When we tried it with Berube and his minimal HC experience he was completely swamped and over his head. We might rush Lappy down this path, and that's certain to be a disaster too.

Rod is a unicorn in this regard, and teams will see him as confirmation that their old boys clubs are the ideal path instead of noticing he's a glaring exception the rule.

Yep. Most quality NHLers end up being shit coachs. Look at Kirk Muller, John MacLean, Phil Housley, Patrick Roy, Wayne Gretzky, and on and on the list goes. There haven't been many great coachs that were also great players. Brindy is definitely a unicorn.