Minor League Thread 2017-18: Part VIII

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I was refering to the developing of defensemen. O'Gara is just playing for the tank. I like DeAngelo as bottom 4, pp specialist, and I think Pionk hás a top 4 potential.

The team sucked this year, mainly because of injuries and AV. I think these guy would play much better in a better enviroment.

And I referred to that, as well. I don't trust this organization's decisions on many matters, one of which is prospect development. They've developed one top 4 defenseman, Skjei, looking like a middle pairing guy. They have two maybe bottom pairing guys, and I'm not even sure Gilmour is good enough. They whiffed big on DeAngelo, at least in my opinion. Major piece for Stepan? I don't believe so. They brought in Bereglazov, but gave him no chance. Graves got no chance. You can say O'Gara is here for the tank, but he got games over Graves, so I wouldn't say so.

The team sucked for many reasons, one of which is the regression of our defense that comes down to a lot of the decisions this front office has made. I think AV is part of the problem, but I think its missing the larger point to blame him for everything. You can blame injuries, but thats a bad excuse. Boston had like 7 or 8 players out of the lineup at one point, but they have depth. We don't.

 

[nyr2k2]

See my post to @Fvital92 for how we've went from the best defense in the league to the worst in about four years. A lot of bad decisions in there. Not giving Graves a chance was just one of many bad decisions, in my opinion. You seem to be trying to trying to paint my opinion into a corner that doesn't apply. This was after you changed the discussion to bait an argument. I'm trying to be polite about this, but your motivation here seems beyond questionable.

What are you going on about? I didn't change the discussion. We were talking about how the organization is handling Zborovskiy, you said you don't trust us to make defensive decisions, and I said I think we've done fine--noting that I see no problems with our player development. I acknowledged the Graves situation not to paint you into a corner but because it was relevant and I assumed you'd mention it.

I thought we were talking about the player development aspect of things, which also seems to be what the rest of the people participating in the conversation appear to have been focusing on. The front office has made plenty of questionable decisions over the years, not just on defense. But in terms of player development? I have no qualms. If they don't think Zborovskiy is capable of playing regularly in the AHL at this point, I don't have a reason to doubt them, as again, I think the player development is fine.

No one is picking on you. I'm not "baiting" you or whatever. Don't be so sensitive.

 

[FireGerardGallant]

See my post to @Fvital92 for how we've went from the best defense in the league to the worst in about four years, which includes what I believe to be a lot of bad decisions on the prospect side. Not giving Graves a chance was just one of many bad decisions, in my opinion. You seem to be trying to trying to paint my opinion into a corner that doesn't apply. This was after you changed the discussion to bait an argument. I'm trying to be polite about this, but your motivation here seems beyond questionable.

Graves just isn't that good. He's going to be 23 in just a few months and he's having the worst season of his professional career. He's at the point of his career where its make it or break it time, and he hasn't shown anything this year that he will make it. He's clearly been surpassed on this teams depth chart and is prob a tweener at best. I don't think this is the Rangers development fault as Pionk and Gilmour have both looked fine so far.

 

[Fvital92]

And I referred to that, as well. I don't trust this organization's decisions on many matters, one of which is prospect development. They've developed one top 4 defenseman, Skjei, looking like a middle pairing guy. They have two maybe bottom pairing guys, and I'm not even sure Gilmour is good enough. They whiffed big on DeAngelo, at least in my opinion. Major piece for Stepan? I don't believe so. They brought in Bereglazov, but gave him no chance. Graves got no chance. You can say O'Gara is here for the tank, but he got games over Graves, so I wouldn't say so.

The team sucked for many reasons, one of which is the regression of our defense that comes down to a lot of the decisions this front office has made. I think AV is part of the problem, but I think its missing the larger point to blame him for everything. You can blame injuries, but thats a bad excuse. Boston had like 7 or 8 players out of the lineup at one point, but they have depth. We don't.

But they don't have AV. Our suckness is a combo of Av + injuries. If our defense at the beginning of the season was Mcd -Pionk, Skjei-Shattenkirk, Staal-TDA we would be better then we were with Smith, Holden and even Kampfer in the lineup.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

What are you going on about? I didn't change the discussion. We were talking about how the organization is handling Zborovskiy, you said you don't trust us to make defensive decisions, and I said I think we've done fine--noting that I see no problems with our player development. I acknowledged the Graves situation not to paint you into a corner but because it was relevant and I assumed you'd mention it.

I thought we were talking about the player development aspect of things, which also seems to be what the rest of the people participating in the conversation appear to have been focusing on. The front office has made plenty of questionable decisions over the years, not just on defense. But in terms of player development? I have no qualms. If they don't think Zborovskiy is capable of playing regularly in the AHL at this point, I don't have a reason to doubt them, as again, I think the player development is fine.

No one is picking on you. I'm not "baiting" you or whatever. Don't be so sensitive.

This is how the conversation started. My comment was purely a factual statement, or at least the Zborovskiy part, as I was wrong about the factual nature of Crawley's situation.

How else do you want me to interpret your reply? This is a player development opinion? I didn't quote your post or anything like that, you replied to me.

Joey Leach and Hubert Labrie both -2, and playing over Crawley and Zborovskiy. Been that way for a few weeks now.

Crawley is supposedly injured from what I see on Twitter. Zborovskiy is just not very good.

I know the opinion's people here have on different prospects, that was never the discussion here on my end. I was wondering about the development decisions this organization is making to sit two prospects, or maybe only one if Crawley's injured, in favor of two AHL guys they signed.

 

[Ola]

How have we done a bad job with defensive prospects? I mean I know you loved Graves and are obviously unhappy the team didn't share your opinion, but otherwise I think we've done fine. I can't think of anything we screwed up. We really haven't even had that many.

I don't remember anything specific about what Beacon said about Zborovskiy other than mentioning some skating concerns, which has always been the concern. Either way, Beacon and I don't always agree in our evaluations, so what he saw in a couple games isn't going to change my opinion that I've developed over a few years.

Finally, I agree that it's unwise that Zborovskiy is just sitting, and said as much.

At the same time, how do we know that the organization didn't like Graves? Maybe we liked others, i.e Gilmour, more? During AVs tenure here we have had big problems with getting the puck to our forwards, making a good outlet pass and beat forecheckers. Those things. Gilmour just fits that bill so much better than Graves. Are we buying out Staal? With Staal here there is no room for Graves, or Bereglazov too for that matter. Depth LD with size. We don't want two of them. I think we liked Graves.

Are Zboro and Day potential NHLers? Never been a fan of either. Just don't see any pro league game in them up until now. I don't think Day even remotely is close and would be shocked if he did come close for us. Zboro, I like him more, but OTOH is he an elite defender? Can he dominate the AHL game soon? Seems like he is ways off.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Graves just isn't that good. He's going to be 23 in just a few months and he's having the worst season of his professional career. He's at the point of his career where its make it or break it time, and he hasn't shown anything this year that he will make it. He's clearly been surpassed on this teams depth chart and is prob a tweener at best. I don't think this is the Rangers development fault as Pionk and Gilmour have both looked fine so far.

How many AHL games have you watched this season to give that opinion?

I'll speak on what I do know. He looked good in training camp, better than any of the defenseman who got a chance with the NHL team.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

But they don't have AV. Our suckness is a combo of Av + injuries. If our defense at the beginning of the season was Mcd -Pionk, Skjei-Shattenkirk, Staal-TDA we would be better then we were with Smith, Holden and even Kampfer in the lineup.

You just said that many here wanted Smith to be re-signed. So now you want hindsight to be applied for a decision many applauded? Lets apply more hindsight. If Montreal knew McDonagh was going to be a 1D, they wouldn't have traded him to us. I didn't want Smith to be re-signed, and was one of the few people who was arguing against him being signed.

I'm also not sure that defense right there is as good as you think it would've been. I'm certainly no big proponent of Smith or Holden, but I don't think they are the main problem with the 1-6 defensive construction this season. I think in the right role they could've contributed, but the whole construction of the defense was off. Shattenkirk is not a top pairing D, Smith isn't a shutdown D, neither is Holden. And the others you mention, it would've been a very big ask for Pionk to go straight from the NCAA's to the NHL. Honey Baker winner Vesey did it, and sucked his first year, still does. I'm also not sure a lineup with Shattenkirk and DeAngelo will work, but maybe my opinion is in the minority on that.

 

[nyr2k2]

I said when Graves was in juniors that offense wasn't his thing (when people were getting excited about his offense), that his skating would be average at best and that he could be a good third pair guy. A lot of people disliked that, probably because our system sucked and people really wanted him to be an impact player. Then last year Clark says they like him "maybe as a third pair guy."

I said more or less the same for Zborovskiy. Uses the stick well, makes decent reads, questionable skating. Not an offensive guy, even when he was with Regina and I was told he was a "catalyst" down there. Maybe Clark was even fooled because he said he though Zborovskiy profiled potentially as a 4/5. I never saw it. I wonder if they still see it?

I think they're handling these guys fine, or handled Graves fine. With Graves they clearly weren't as high on him as some here and thought other guys deserved a shot over him. Oh well. When he's better than Brady Skjei someone can come say, "neener neener 2k2!" I'm wrong about guys all the time, I just don't think I am with these two.

 

[nyr2k2]

At the same time, how do we know that the organization didn't like Graves? Maybe we liked others, i.e Gilmour, more? During AVs tenure here we have had big problems with getting the puck to our forwards, making a good outlet pass and beat forecheckers. Those things. Gilmour just fits that bill so much better than Graves. Are we buying out Staal? With Staal here there is no room for Graves, or Bereglazov too for that matter. Depth LD with size. We don't want two of them. I think we liked Graves.

Are Zboro and Day potential NHLers? Never been a fan of either. Just don't see any pro league game in them up until now. I don't think Day even remotely is close and would be shocked if he did come close for us. Zboro, I like him more, but OTOH is he an elite defender? Can he dominate the AHL game soon? Seems like he is ways off.

As I said, last year Clark said they liked Graves "maybe" as a third pair guy.

"And, maybe as a third-pair guy, so does Ryan Graves in Hartford, who’s really picked it up this year, and John Gilmour, who we signed as a free agent this summer."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost...angers-top-prospects-and-their-due-dates/amp/

So, that's from Clark directly. You're right, it doesn't mean they didn't like him, it just means they liked other guys more.

 

[FireGerardGallant]

How many AHL games have you watched this season to give that opinion?

I'll speak on what I do know. He looked good in training camp, better than any of the defenseman who got a chance with the NHL team.

I havent watched a ton (around 3) so I'm not gonna act like I'm Beacon who can give in-depth insight into these guys, but Graves has clearly been surpassed by other guys in the org like Gilmour and Pionk (prob still better than O'Gara though).

 

[Fvital92]

Chytil scored.

 

[FireGerardGallant]

Chytil scored.

Thats good to hear, hopefully he can finally get out of the mini slope hes been on the last few games

 

[UAGoalieGuy]

Packs up 2-1 in the second. Smith has an assist! Lol

 

[FireGerardGallant]

Has Chytil been moved to the wing? I just saw video of Charlotte's goal and it looked like he was on the wing. Idk if this is from him getting kicked out of the faceoff dot or not

 

[eco's bones]

I'm not trying to rag on Beacon, I appreciate his updates, but I don't take everything he says with full seriousness. If you look at his updates, along with updates of how they are playing, he'll add narratives to a lot of players. They are there for Gropp, Georgiyev, Chytil, Andersson, Gilmour, Tambellini, etc. Some are probably valid, and others might not, but in terms of evaluation of Zborovskiy's play, he gave good updates, so I'm not sure nyr2k2's assessment that he's an ECHL/AHL tweener when he's doing well, if Beacon's updates are to be believed, is correct.

I think you are right that the secondary defensive prospects have it harder, they are now competing for less spots now, but that wasn't the discussion here. I am wondering why we are playing AHL plugs over our team's own prospects, especially when those plugs are playing poorly.

Hold on here a second. You're the one who cited Beacon's reports on Zborovskiy's play being 'pretty good' as reason he should be in the lineup instead of Labrie. I just pointed out that Beacon's analysis of Zborovskiy wasn't very positive at all and then it's like you don't think everything Beacon says should be taken 'with full seriousness'. I didn't bring up Beacon's viewpoint on Zborovskiy as some kind of proof he's 'pretty good'----you did. You just got what I took as his actual viewpoint on Sergei a little bit skewed.

IMO there is no one who is going to be right on everything including you and including Beacon and even including me. But there are things that are easy to be right about and IMO when you have a young defenseman who hasn't been able to solidify a spot on an AHL roster that's been riddled with injuries and call-ups (and by the way Zborovskiy is playing today) and who seems to be skating in mud compared to some of his peers it's not really that hard to not be right in coming to the conclusion he's probably not going to become an NHL player. Subpar skating almost always equals not going to make it.

 

[FireGerardGallant]

Wow Hartford just blew a 2-0 lead
They're now down 4-2
Looks like they Georgie back soon

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Hold on here a second. You're the one who cited Beacon's reports on Zborovskiy's play being 'pretty good' as reason he should be in the lineup instead of Labrie. I just pointed out that Beacon's analysis of Zborovskiy wasn't very positive at all and then it's like you don't think everything Beacon says should be taken 'with full seriousness'. I didn't bring up Beacon's viewpoint on Zborovskiy as some kind of proof he's 'pretty good'----you did. You just got what I took as his actual viewpoint on Sergei a little bit skewed.

IMO there is no one who is going to be right on everything including you and including Beacon and even including me. But there are things that are easy to be right about and IMO when you have a young defenseman who hasn't been able to solidify a spot on an AHL roster that's been riddled with injuries and call-ups (and by the way Zborovskiy is playing today) and who seems to be skating in mud compared to some of his peers it's not really that hard to not be right in coming to the conclusion he's probably not going to become an NHL player. Subpar skating almost always equals not going to make it.

I didn't use his reports to cite reasons why anyone should be in the lineup. Its a development team for the New York Rangers, I think all our prospects should be playing over AHL guys, I don't care how they play. I think you are taking from Beacon's updates what you want for your opinions, and not taking them for what they are. You are taking the opinion side of his updates that he struggles with his skating, and not taking the play by play updates. If Beacon is giving a play by play update, I will believe it. He could be wrong about what happened during specific plays, but I think play by play is pretty straight forward, so I regard that as pretty close to fact. The opinions he gives, which is where I think you are deriving your opinion from, is subjective, and I think each person should decide how they regard that.

 

[eco's bones]

I didn't use his reports to cite reasons why anyone should be in the lineup. Its a development team for the New York Rangers, I think all our prospects should be playing over AHL guys, I don't care how they play. I think you are taking from Beacon's updates what you want for your opinions, and not taking them for what they are. You are taking the opinion side of his updates that he struggles with his skating, and not taking the play by play updates. If Beacon is giving a play by play update, I will believe it. He could be wrong about what happened during specific plays, but I think play by play is pretty straight forward, so I regard that as pretty close to fact. The opinions he gives, which is where I think you are deriving your opinion from, is subjective, and I think each person should decide how they regard that.

Here's what you said in post #1717:

'He looked really good in juniors, seemingly was doing well in the ECHL if he kept getting called up, and the reviews posted here from Beacon about his AHL play were pretty good. He didn't play many AHL games though, so we aren't going off much'.

You were using Beacon's supposed reporting on AHL games to support your argument. That Beacon actually was telling us about his subpar skating notwithstanding. Of course he can join in here and comment on the accuracy of either of our memories on this anytime he wants. IMO I have watched no ECHL or AHL games this year---I have tracked the Wolfpack often during games but that's not the same as seeing them. Judging by your comments---'seemingly was playing well in the ECHL' and 'didn't play many AHL games, so we aren't going off much' sounds like you haven't actually seen any of his games either---at least after the Traverse tournament.

As for Beacon---I think he's a knowledgable but hardly infallible commentator on what he sees. I have a lot of issues however with a lot of his opinions--particularly his theories on leagues which strike me quite often as absurd but be that as it may he does give very good rundowns of Hartford Wolfpack games.

As for why play Labrie--I don't know.....because they think they have a better chance of winning? He's no great shakes....the question is would Zborovskiy be an improvement.

 

[nyr2k2]

Well Zborovskiy made it into the lineup today, so maybe he'll get some more games down the stretch and we can gain some more insight into what he brings.

 

[Osminator]

I guess that loss just about seals the deal for the Pack... no playoffs.

 

[nyr2k2]

I guess that loss just about seals the deal for the Pack... no playoffs.

Yeah they'd need to run off like a seven or eight game streak to have a realistic shot. They're basically done.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Here's what you said in post #1717:

'He looked really good in juniors, seemingly was doing well in the ECHL if he kept getting called up, and the reviews posted here from Beacon about his AHL play were pretty good. He didn't play many AHL games though, so we aren't going off much'.

You were using Beacon's supposed reporting on AHL games to support your argument. That Beacon actually was telling us about his subpar skating notwithstanding. Of course he can join in here and comment on the accuracy of either of our memories on this anytime he wants. IMO I have watched no ECHL or AHL games this year---I have tracked the Wolfpack often during games but that's not the same as seeing them. Judging by your comments---'seemingly was playing well in the ECHL' and 'didn't play many AHL games, so we aren't going off much' sounds like you haven't actually seen any of his games either---at least after the Traverse tournament.

As for Beacon---I think he's a knowledgable but hardly infallible commentator on what he sees. I have a lot of issues however with a lot of his opinions--particularly his theories on leagues which strike me quite often as absurd but be that as it may he does give very good rundowns of Hartford Wolfpack games.

As for why play Labrie--I don't know.....because they think they have a better chance of winning? He's no great shakes....the question is would Zborovskiy be an improvement.

I have not watched any Hartford games this year. That is correct. I did watch Traverse.

I think you are confusing something I said in passing or related to a different point and something I used to support my argument. My argument is not something I think needs supporting. Its an opinion that our prospects should be playing over bad AHL players. If what he said didn't support my argument, I don't think it would matter. I don't have much of an argument for thinking Pedrie is a good prospect, doesn't mean I prefer Labrie playing over him. This is complete semantics though.

I can only give my end of what I take from Beacon's reports, and say that I appreciate his posts, and I take the play by play aspect out of it. If I was going to form a wide-ranging opinion about different players, I'd want to see if its true before I agree with it, but I have no problem believing play by play reports. If they are incorrect, its minor league hockey, who cares? If you want or anyone else wants to take other things from his reports, you can do that, but thats my end of what I take from them.

 

[eco's bones]

I have not watched any Hartford games this year. That is correct. I did watch Traverse.

I think you are confusing something I said in passing or related to a different point and something I used to support my argument. My argument is not something I think needs supporting. Its an opinion that our prospects should be playing over bad AHL players. If what he said didn't support my argument, I don't think it would matter. I don't have much of an argument for thinking Pedrie is a good prospect, doesn't mean I prefer Labrie playing over him. This is complete semantics though.

I can only give my end of what I take from Beacon's reports, and say that I appreciate his posts, and I take the play by play aspect out of it. If I was going to form a wide-ranging opinion about different players, I'd want to see if its true before I agree with it, but I have no problem believing play by play reports. If they are incorrect, its minor league hockey, who cares? If you want or anyone else wants to take other things from his reports, you can do that, but thats my end of what I take from them.

Apparently the Rangers think Pedrie and Crawley are better prospects than Zborovskiy though....and you have to wonder just right there how good Zborovskiy really is. Both those guys have been with the Wolfpack the entire year. Is Labrie bad?--he's not great obviously. Why has Zborovskiy been in Greenville the better part of the season and why bring Labrie in to play instead of him? Ask Gorton, Drury, McCambridge. The only thing I can think is they think they can win more with Labrie.

As for Beacon---I wouldn't have brought him up if you hadn't. But speaking of the guys we currently have in the minors--not very many of them have a realistic shot at an NHL career and by realistic I don't mean a few games...I mean three or four years anyway. Zborovskiy stuck down in the ECHL just looks to be fodder to me. Very likely we will not give him another contract when his ELC is up.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

And I referred to that, as well. I don't trust this organization's decisions on many matters, one of which is prospect development. They've developed one top 4 defenseman, Skjei, looking like a middle pairing guy. They have two maybe bottom pairing guys, and I'm not even sure Gilmour is good enough. They whiffed big on DeAngelo, at least in my opinion. Major piece for Stepan? I don't believe so. They brought in Bereglazov, but gave him no chance. Graves got no chance. You can say O'Gara is here for the tank, but he got games over Graves, so I wouldn't say so.

The team sucked for many reasons, one of which is the regression of our defense that comes down to a lot of the decisions this front office has made. I think AV is part of the problem, but I think its missing the larger point to blame him for everything. You can blame injuries, but thats a bad excuse. Boston had like 7 or 8 players out of the lineup at one point, but they have depth. We don't.

Besides that, how did you like the play Mrs. Lincoln?