Minor League Importance

[Crazy Tasty]

I think this is my first ever thread, here goes...

Chris Taylor was on WGR a week or more ago talking about their season. Peters brought up the bus and laughed, expecting Taylor to complain (I assume).
Taylor instead talked about how great the bus trips are for players to bond, develop friendships, talk about life, etc. etc. So that got me thinking about whether or not this current team suffers from a lack of the above.

We all know about the Rochester core and the 6 (or more) players that all played and won together in Rochester that filled out the 3rd and 4th lines (and above) during the co-captain years. Pominville played 235 AHL games in that stretch...

So I looked at our current roster and here's what I came up with:
7 Players with 0 AHL games (Eichel, Reinhart, Mittlestadt, Okposo, Skinner, Bogosian & Dahlin)
2012: Larsson 7, Girgensons 61
2013: Larsson 51
2014: Larsson 44, McCabe 57.
2015: Rodrigues 72, McCabe 1
2016: Rodrigues 48, Nelson 58
2017: Rodrigues 8, Nelson 40
2018: Nelson 5, Wilson 17

Rochester Core:
2002: Miller 47, Pominville 72, Gaustad 80
2003: Miller 60, Pominville 66, Gaustad 78, Roy 26
2004: Miller 63, Pominville 78, Gaustad 76, Roy 67, Vanek 74, (not core but... Paille, 79, Thorburn 73)
2005 Miller 2, Pominville 18, Roay 8, Paille 45, Thorburn 77 - Mika Noronen 2 (had to).

So, current roster, little to no minor league, bus riding bonding going on, in fact a 3rd of the roster didn't even play in the AHL in jumping right to the NHL.

My theory is that "paying your dues" does have an impact on a individual player as well as team success, and the lack of that with our current roster could be (partially) responsible for the year over year inconsistency and lack of desire or drive.

Thoughts?

Click to read more...

 

[jBuds]

I think its an easy thing to offset (the lack of minor league marinating) by having the right vets and the right coaching staff to handle specific rigors of steering the ship.

 

[Endless Ike]

I think its an easy thing to offset (the lack of minor league marinating) by having the right vets and the right coaching staff to handle specific rigors of steering the ship.

So in other words, we’re doomed?

 

[jBuds]

So in other words, we’re doomed?

I certainly haven’t thought of a good fix in my head. Seems like every vet we get deteriorates into his worst self here, leaving you with what - turning over the youth we tanked so hard for? five coaches in five years?

 

[Buffaloed]

Just because they're in the NHL doesn't mean they don't do things together as a team.

Lindy Ruff used to take them bowling
Ted Nolan took them to strip clubs
Dan Bylsma introduced them to disco
Ron Rolston enrolled them in the Junior Ladies Garden Club
Jack Eichel has ordered a custom bicycle built for 23
Phil Housley?

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

I think this is my first ever thread, here goes...

Chris Taylor was on WGR a week or more ago talking about their season. Peters brought up the bus and laughed, expecting Taylor to complain (I assume).
Taylor instead talked about how great the bus trips are for players to bond, develop friendships, talk about life, etc. etc. So that got me thinking about whether or not this current team suffers from a lack of the above.

We all know about the Rochester core and the 6 (or more) players that all played and won together in Rochester that filled out the 3rd and 4th lines (and above) during the co-captain years. Pominville played 235 AHL games in that stretch...

So I looked at our current roster and here's what I came up with:
7 Players with 0 AHL games (Eichel, Reinhart, Mittlestadt, Okposo, Skinner, Bogosian & Dahlin)
2012: Larsson 7, Girgensons 61
2013: Larsson 51
2014: Larsson 44, McCabe 57.
2015: Rodrigues 72, McCabe 1
2016: Rodrigues 48, Nelson 58
2017: Rodrigues 8, Nelson 40
2018: Nelson 5, Wilson 17

Rochester Core:
2002: Miller 47, Pominville 72, Gaustad 80
2003: Miller 60, Pominville 66, Gaustad 78, Roy 26
2004: Miller 63, Pominville 78, Gaustad 76, Roy 67, Vanek 74, (not core but... Paille, 79, Thorburn 73)
2005 Miller 2, Pominville 18, Roay 8, Paille 45, Thorburn 77 - Mika Noronen 2 (had to).

So, current roster, little to no minor league, bus riding bonding going on, in fact a 3rd of the roster didn't even play in the AHL in jumping right to the NHL.

My theory is that "paying your dues" does have an impact on a individual player as well as team success, and the lack of that with our current roster could be (partially) responsible for the year over year inconsistency and lack of desire or drive.

Thoughts?

Tampa has a lot of players with little AHL experience, they seem to make it work?

 

[Tatanka]

I view AHL experience as useful for those that need it and overrated for those that do not. CHL players that show promise but do not dominate or have little international experience, gain from the step up in speed and competition. International players can get a feel for tighter ice surfaces. College kids tend to play against physically more mature players but do not have as long a season. All get some benefit out of it. But the creme de la creme do not necessarily need AHL experience. The more quickly you can become productive at the NHL level the better the player and the team. I think the AHL can impede the development of high IQ skill players who have no one that thinks the game at their level. So I guess I am meh on this issue.

 

[Steddy33]

Just because they're in the NHL doesn't mean they don't do things together as a team.

Lindy Ruff used to take them bowling
Ted Nolan took them to strip clubs
Dan Bylsma introduced them to disco
Ron Rolston enrolled them in the Junior Ladies Garden Club
Jack Eichel has ordered a custom bicycle built for 23
Phil Housley?

Phil Housley takes them to Bohemian Grove

 

[DolanPlsGoSabres]

Phil Housley takes them to Bohemian Grove

Probably takes them to the Hubba Bubba factory whenever they don't give up a goal within 2 minutes of scoring.

 

[MayDayMayDay]

This is what excites me about Botts and about our future. In coming over from Pittsburgh, Botts clearly brought the same emphasis for success on the farm that made the Penguins perennial contenders. Crosby/Malkin/Letang are all quality players. But the continuous flow of capable supporting cast members from Wilkes-Barre is the reason that team has remained competitive.

I look at what's happening in Roch right now - a first place team seemingly (and correct me if I'm wrong here) with Calder Cup aspirations, and as many as 9(?) guys who could be contributors in the big league as early as next year - and that excites me.

Only question is - when is the purge? When does the dead weight in Buffalo give way to the hungry young horses we've got in the stable? I think that day is coming. When it happens, it's gonna be sudden, dramatic, and a hell of a lot of fun to watch.

 

[Chainshot]

This is what excites me about Botts and about our future. In coming over from Pittsburgh, Botts clearly brought the same emphasis for success on the farm that made the Penguins perennial contenders. Crosby/Malkin/Letang are all quality players. But the continuous flow of capable supporting cast members from Wilkes-Barre is the reason that team has remained competitive.

I look at what's happening in Roch right now - a first place team seemingly (and correct me if I'm wrong here) with Calder Cup aspirations, and as many as 9(?) guys who could be contributors in the big league as early as next year - and that excites me.

Only question is - when is the purge? When does the dead weight in Buffalo give way to the hungry young horses we've got in the stable? I think that day is coming. When it happens, it's gonna be sudden, dramatic, and a hell of a lot of fun to watch.

Given the conservative bent the current coach takes with youth, having it happen at all is going to require the GM not keep giving him terrible vets as placeholders. With this season nearly gone, seeing some longer-term looks at the unknown youth playing key minutes seems like a no-brainer, but here we are, looking at the same roster full of the same players who make the same mistakes night after night, veterans as some of the worst transgressors, and yet nothing shifts, nothing changes. Insane to think this is now three years and two regimes of the same antics.

 

[MayDayMayDay]

Given the conservative bent the current coach takes with youth, having it happen at all is going to require the GM not keep giving him terrible vets as placeholders. With this season nearly gone, seeing some longer-term looks at the unknown youth playing key minutes seems like a no-brainer, but here we are, looking at the same roster full of the same players who make the same mistakes night after night, veterans as some of the worst transgressors, and yet nothing shifts, nothing changes. Insane to think this is now three years and two regimes of the same antics.

Yeah, watching the early optimism of this season slowly erode away has been excruciating. :/

I think this kind of begs the question, how do we get rid of the dead weight and facilitate it? Might be more suited for the roster spec thread or maybe even it's own.

 

[Tatanka]

This is what excites me about Botts and about our future. In coming over from Pittsburgh, Botts clearly brought the same emphasis for success on the farm that made the Penguins perennial contenders. Crosby/Malkin/Letang are all quality players. But the continuous flow of capable supporting cast members from Wilkes-Barre is the reason that team has remained competitive.

I look at what's happening in Roch right now - a first place team seemingly (and correct me if I'm wrong here) with Calder Cup aspirations, and as many as 9(?) guys who could be contributors in the big league as early as next year - and that excites me.

Only question is - when is the purge? When does the dead weight in Buffalo give way to the hungry young horses we've got in the stable? I think that day is coming. When it happens, it's gonna be sudden, dramatic, and a hell of a lot of fun to watch.

Crosby Malkin, Kessel Letang made Pittsburgh Successful along with Fleury and Murray. The fodder they plugged in from the from the farm would look great with those guys. Pittsburgh traded a ton of their prospects and picks for established vets. This idea that Botts created a pipeline is false. Sheary and his inability to contribute without Crosbt Malkin et al is just some of the evidence. They needed bodies to fill out the roster but Crosby Malkin Kessel Letang is why they were successful. Botts had nothing to do with that.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

This is what excites me about Botts and about our future. In coming over from Pittsburgh, Botts clearly brought the same emphasis for success on the farm that made the Penguins perennial contenders. Crosby/Malkin/Letang are all quality players. But the continuous flow of capable supporting cast members from Wilkes-Barre is the reason that team has remained competitive.

I look at what's happening in Roch right now - a first place team seemingly (and correct me if I'm wrong here) with Calder Cup aspirations, and as many as 9(?) guys who could be contributors in the big league as early as next year - and that excites me.

Only question is - when is the purge? When does the dead weight in Buffalo give way to the hungry young horses we've got in the stable? I think that day is coming. When it happens, it's gonna be sudden, dramatic, and a hell of a lot of fun to watch.

Most of the vet placeholders have contracts that expire in the summer of 2020. I don't think that was by accident. Look for next year this time, at the TDL when any of Sobotka, Sheary, Wilson, Bogosian, Scandella, Hunwick, and Nelson can be traded for scraps (if they aren't traded sooner). That's when the influx of young talent will be in full force (again if not sooner), and the time for mediocre vet placeholders will be over.

 

[Doohickie]

Only question is - when is the purge? When does the dead weight in Buffalo give way to the hungry young horses we've got in the stable? I think that day is coming. When it happens, it's gonna be sudden, dramatic, and a hell of a lot of fun to watch.

There will be no purge, only a gradual draw-down of older vet contracts. Out of the 9 players you think may be ready next year, I'm guessing only 2 or 3 will be on the NHL roster in October. If you dump that many players out of Rochester all at once it would be a talent drain that would result in an emasculated Rochester roster, the opposite of how JBot builds. Also, although you may have identified 9 players you think are ready to make the jump to the NHL, probably only about half of them will become Sabres regulars. Stuff happens- players plateau and never make the jump, they backslide, they get traded.

That said, I look forward to having an AHL roster that is over-ripe, with the best of them literally forcing their way onto the Sabres roster. As the playoffs slip away, it will be interesting to see who they bring up. I didn't follow Pittsburgh's progress when JBot was there, but I lived in Detroit in the 1990s and saw a similar scenario play out for the Red Wings. It seemed like for about ten years, whenever a player on the Wings went down with an injury, the AHL callup was more than ready to fill the gap. It would be weird when they got sent back down when the injured player returned since they were so obviously NHL quality. When the Sabres get to that point, they will be competitive. And they won't get there by promoting 9 players to the NHL all at once.

That said, I think the Sabres are on a good trajectory. In ten years, Sabres fandom will be glad they team took the path they did, but it's frustrating right now.

 

[brian_griffin]

^^As posted above, it would be great if the Sabres had the ever-blooming talent to execute such a strategy.

Transforming from minor league impotence, to minor league importance. Things are pointed upwards, indeed.

 

[Doohickie]

JBot has publicly stated this is his preferred approach.

 

[Royal Thunder]

Just because they're in the NHL doesn't mean they don't do things together as a team.

Lindy Ruff used to take them bowling
Ted Nolan took them to strip clubs
Dan Bylsma introduced them to disco
Ron Rolston enrolled them in the Junior Ladies Garden Club
Jack Eichel has ordered a custom bicycle built for 23
Phil Housley?

LOL at ladies garden club

To be fair, and it wasn't involving the whole team, but Housley did go to Minnesota(i think) with some of the players in the summer as some kind of team building/leadership summit. Clearly it was very effective

 

[debaser66]

Just because they're in the NHL doesn't mean they don't do things together as a team.

Lindy Ruff used to take them bowling
Ted Nolan took them to strip clubs
Dan Bylsma introduced them to disco
Ron Rolston enrolled them in the Junior Ladies Garden Club
Jack Eichel has ordered a custom bicycle built for 23
Phil Housley?

He introduced pulse checking.
If you have more pulse than him or Sobotka you are scratched.

 

[Buf fan in Nash]

Phil Housley takes them to Bohemian Grove

Haha this made me spit out my coffee.

 

[Aladyyn]

There will be no purge, only a gradual draw-down of older vet contracts. Out of the 9 players you think may be ready next year, I'm guessing only 2 or 3 will be on the NHL roster in October. If you dump that many players out of Rochester all at once it would be a talent drain that would result in an emasculated Rochester roster, the opposite of how JBot builds. Also, although you may have identified 9 players you think are ready to make the jump to the NHL, probably only about half of them will become Sabres regulars. Stuff happens- players plateau and never make the jump, they backslide, they get traded.

That said, I look forward to having an AHL roster that is over-ripe, with the best of them literally forcing their way onto the Sabres roster. As the playoffs slip away, it will be interesting to see who they bring up. I didn't follow Pittsburgh's progress when JBot was there, but I lived in Detroit in the 1990s and saw a similar scenario play out for the Red Wings. It seemed like for about ten years, whenever a player on the Wings went down with an injury, the AHL callup was more than ready to fill the gap. It would be weird when they got sent back down when the injured player returned since they were so obviously NHL quality. When the Sabres get to that point, they will be competitive. And they won't get there by promoting 9 players to the NHL all at once.

That said, I think the Sabres are on a good trajectory. In ten years, Sabres fandom will be glad they team took the path they did, but it's frustrating right now.

Gonna be a no from me, dawg.

 

[brian_griffin]

LOL at ladies garden club

To be fair, and it wasn't involving the whole team, but Housley did go to Minnesota(i think) with some of the players in the summer as some kind of team building/leadership summit. Clearly it was very effective

<Read in Housley voice>
"Bogo, when you set these out, they go chair, chair, table, chair, chair, and then the chaise lounge by the deep end of the pool."

"Reino, there are daffodil bulbs strewn in that patch of high grass, so raise the mower deck two notches when you get there."

"Casey, STOP you need to turn the hose water ON before starting the pressure washer. That's a rookie mistake, and that's the last time you're gonna make it."

"Risto, STOP TRYING TO FLIP OVER MY JOHN DEERE!!!"

 

[Crazy Tasty]

JBot has publicly stated this is his preferred approach.

I get that, I probably should have ended the OP with my question:

Is the problem with the current roster that they didn't have earn their spot on the roster by paying their dues in the AHL?

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

I get that, I probably should have ended the OP with my question:

Is the problem with the current roster that they didn't have earn their spot on the roster by paying their dues in the AHL?

I'm not sure Pominville being old, Okposo being concussed, Sobotka & Sheary being toast have much to do with their time in the AHL.