Minnesota Wild General Discussion VIII

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TaLoN

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absolute garbage

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I won't deny the nepotism; that boat sailed when he hired his son as a head scout. Whether or not that'll bite us remains to be seen though. I didn't see any major red flags from his first draft, at least.

But cronyism? To some extent there's no getting around that when every team is sort of recruiting from the same pool of guys. "Soandso was let go from Team X as part of management turnover this week. He's expected to join his old friend NewGM with Team Y. They were both assistants under OldGuy in City Z." It's probably inevitable that GMs tend to hire people that they know and have worked with first hand, or have worked with people they know and trust. Managers tend to be pretty risk-averse, and almost no one gets a job in this league without being friends with/related to the right people.

No doubt that the NHL is effectively a closed league. If you are not friends or relatives with the "machine", you are not getting in. The change regarding this has been slower than other pro sports leagues but perhaps in a decade or two, smart and talented people start getting hired more and more based on those attributes, and less and less emphasis is put on who their dad is. Eventually, meritocracy will replace monarchy in the NHL too.

That being said, the stuff under Fenton has been pretty egregious even with NHL standards.

But the bottom line is that The Other Chiarelli is coming in as a scout, not a manager. He'll go back to Ontario, get his eyes on players and report back, not make trades or personnel decisions. And deciding that Mike Chiarelli must be a ****ty scout because his brother was a ****ty GM isn't all that convincing.
The majority of NHL scouts are shitty and incompetent. It's just the nature of nepotism and cronyism. That's why crude drafting algorithms outperform every team on the draft table. And yes, I assume the guy who has been fired every time after his brother was fired as the manager is a shitty and incompetent scout too.
 

Bazeek

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No doubt that the NHL is effectively a closed league. If you are not friends or relatives with the "machine", you are not getting in. The change regarding this has been slower than other pro sports leagues but perhaps in a decade or two, smart and talented people start getting hired more and more based on those attributes, and less and less emphasis is put on who their dad is. Eventually, meritocracy will replace monarchy in the NHL too.

That being said, the stuff under Fenton has been pretty egregious even with NHL standards.


The majority of NHL scouts are ****ty and incompetent. It's just the nature of nepotism and cronyism. That's why crude drafting algorithms outperform every team on the draft table. And yes, I assume the guy who has been fired every time after his brother was fired as the manager is a ****ty and incompetent scout too.
So by your standards the league is ****ty and awful, but Fenton is "egregious" even by those ****ty and awful standards? What puts him a tier below the norm? Are there any not-****ty-and-awful front offices out there to look at as exemplars? Do they have more success than monarchs like Fenton?
 
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absolute garbage

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So by your standards the league is ****ty and awful, but Fenton is "egregious" even by those ****ty and awful standards? What puts him a tier below the norm? Are there any not-****ty-and-awful front offices out there to look at as exemplars? Do they have more success than monarchs like Fenton?
Yes, from what I've followed the situation, it seems like Fenton is worse than the average. Like you said, there's generally a bunch of former players and relatives and friends that fill up the ranks of basically all organisations (a pool of people), that's the normal practice. But like I've said, this seems to be more shameless and egregious under Paul "lizard brain" Fenton. From these blatantly nepotistic scouting hires to employing one of the biggest spaceheads in the business in Modano. The absurd cult-like weirdo commentary he gives to the media and fans of course doesn't help either.

I think some front offices are more progressive than others (like Gorton in NY), but in terms of scouting and drafting, from what I can tell, neanderthal-ism dominates.
 

Bazeek

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Yes, from what I've followed the situation, it seems like Fenton is worse than the average. Like you said, there's generally a bunch of former players and relatives and friends that fill up the ranks of basically all organisations (a pool of people), that's the normal practice. But like I've said, this seems to be more shameless and egregious under Paul "lizard brain" Fenton. From these blatantly nepotistic scouting hires to employing one of the biggest spaceheads in the business in Modano. The absurd cult-like weirdo commentary he gives to the media and fans of course doesn't help either.

I think some front offices are more progressive than others (like Gorton in NY), but in terms of scouting and drafting, from what I can tell, neanderthal-ism dominates.
This all sounds like evidence chasing a conclusion to me.

For the record, I'm not trying to argue that any of these hires are good. The Chiarellis haven't really done anything yet. Fenton the Younger just ran his first draft and seemed to do fine, but that's still a short resume. Modano seems to have been hired to do something he's reportedly very good at: schmoozing. I won't defend the reasons for hiring them, but I'm more worried about their performance and I can't say that I have enough evidence to draw conclusions about that yet. From the outside, scouting seems like a hard thing to gauge on a scale any smaller than years.

I haven't ruled out the possibility that Fenton is a bad GM, but thus far there seem to be a lot of people confusing not liking Fenton with him actually being bad at his job. It's not very meritocratic.
 

absolute garbage

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This all sounds like evidence chasing a conclusion to me.

For the record, I'm not trying to argue that any of these hires are good. The Chiarellis haven't really done anything yet. Fenton the Younger just ran his first draft and seemed to do fine, but that's still a short resume. Modano seems to have been hired to do something he's reportedly very good at: schmoozing. I won't defend the reasons for hiring them, but I'm more worried about their performance and I can't say that I have enough evidence to draw conclusions about that yet. From the outside, scouting seems like a hard thing to gauge on a scale any smaller than years.

I haven't ruled out the possibility that Fenton is a bad GM, but thus far there seem to be a lot of people confusing not liking Fenton with him actually being bad at his job. It's not very meritocratic.
Oh yeah, people are just confused. None of the moves and decisions Fenton has made indicate he's bad at his job. People just don't like him, and that dislike has absolutely nothing to do with what he has done and said.

Man this sounds familiar.
 

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Oh yeah, people are just confused. None of the moves and decisions Fenton has made indicate he's bad at his job. People just don't like him, and that dislike has absolutely nothing to do with what he has done and said.

Man this sounds familiar.
Since we're talking specifically about a handful of hirings here: on what basis are they "egregious" and "shameless" relative to the rest of the league, which is what you've stated? For that matter, on what basis are we determining league norms? Is there any evidence in play that isn't rooted in perception? If they were guys you'd never heard of before would they be okay?
 
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absolute garbage

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Since we're talking specifically about a handful of hirings here: on what basis are they "egregious" and "shameless" relative to the rest of the league, which is what you've stated? For that matter, on what basis are we determining league norms? Is there any evidence in play that isn't rooted in perception? If they were guys you'd never heard of before would they be okay?
I've already explained that you.

It's all obviously connected. When you have a guy trading Nino for Rask and Granlund for Fiala one for one without even bothering to ask for picks, and hiring his s̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶a̶c̶h̶i̶e̶v̶e̶ ̶p̶e̶a̶c̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶m̶i̶d̶d̶l̶e̶ ̶e̶a̶s̶t̶ son to run the draft plus offering other sinecure jobs for his pals from the past, and sounding like a complete buffoon every time he opens his mouth, there's plenty of basis for concern, dislike, and the thought that this person is not the sharpest tool in the shed and unqualified for the job.

If you need him to tattoo "I am a idiot" on his forehead before you are comfortable making that conclusion, go ahead.
 

Bazeek

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I've already explained that you.

It's all obviously connected. When you have a guy trading Nino for Rask and Granlund for Fiala one for one without even bothering to ask for picks, and hiring his s̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶a̶c̶h̶i̶e̶v̶e̶ ̶p̶e̶a̶c̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶m̶i̶d̶d̶l̶e̶ ̶e̶a̶s̶t̶ son to run the draft plus offering other sinecure jobs for his pals from the past, and sounding like a complete buffoon every time he opens his mouth, there's plenty of basis for concern, dislike, and the thought that this person is not the sharpest tool in the shed and unqualified for the job.

If you need him to tattoo "I am a idiot" on his forehead before you are comfortable making that conclusion, go ahead.
Explained what? The closest you've come to explaining why Chiarelli was a bad hire is a guilt by association argument.

I made a post pointing out some of the territory Mike Chiarelli had covered for the Bruins and Oilers and you responded with:
What about the fact that Bruins drafting was arguably the worst in the NHL during that time frame? That's the Chiarelli & Benning era that started after Marchand/Lucic in 2006. Bust after bust after bust by an organisation run by two clueless, incompetent, abject morons who like to employ their family members. That's not a red flag?

Anyone who isn't seeing the gross nepotism and cronyism under Fenton is in denial.

Which doesn't actually have much to do with Mike Chiarelli or the scouting he was apparently doing in Ontario. I tried to dig into that a bit in my response, but for some reason all of that was left out when you quoted me above. Instead I've been accused of missing the big picture by questioning what you're basing your opinions on.

Nino for Rask was bad. Granlund for Fiala was alright but should have been better. Coyle for Donato and a 5th was fine. His UFA and RFA signings have been fine so far. The drafting's been alright but it's still early to come to firm conclusions there. Overall it's just been a mixed bag, which is worrying for a team that declared a year ago that "good isn't good enough." At this point Fenton's effectively put his stamp on the team, so we'll see next year how he's actually done.

But scouting hires? No, I don't think there's enough there to justify the hyperbole you've been throwing around.
 
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absolute garbage

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I have literally no idea whether Mike Chiarelli is good at his job or not and neither do you. Scouting is obviously a massive team effort and it's impossible to tell the rare studs from the duds from the outside. The only thing I know about him is that he's been part of some really stupid organisations thanks to his really stupid brother being the boss, and that he's been fired every time after his brother has been fired. That doesn't look good, and this what seems to be some sort of weird favor-making and nepotism hires also don't look good. And when you combine all that to the other silliness that's been going on (it's not really a mixed bag, it's just a trash bag), I start connecting dots.

He's obviously retooling the team, specifically the forward group, trying to get some new young blood in and trying to win something before Parise and Suter are too old. Has been the kind of performance that needs the Benny Hill theme as the soundtrack.
 

TaLoN

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I have literally no idea whether Mike Chiarelli is good at his job or not and neither do you. Scouting is obviously a massive team effort and it's impossible to tell the rare studs from the duds from the outside. The only thing I know about him is that he's been part of some really stupid organisations thanks to his really stupid brother being the boss, and that he's been fired every time after his brother has been fired. That doesn't look good, and this what seems to be some sort of weird favor-making and nepotism hires also don't look good. And when you combine all that to the other silliness that's been going on (it's not really a mixed bag, it's just a trash bag), I start connecting dots.

He's obviously retooling the team, specifically the forward group, trying to get some new young blood in and trying to win something before Parise and Suter are too old. Has been the kind of performance that needs the Benny Hill theme as the soundtrack.
So because a scout that you have no idea is good at his job.... and admit that he could be excellent at it... was part of an organization that made mistakes and related to someone who made those mistakes, he shouldn't be hired because of how it looks?

What if you had Brent Gretzky on your team... knew how bad a hockey player he was... damn, no way do I want Wayne Gretzky! What a bad look it would make signing the brother of such a bad player!

Since we have zero idea how good or bad he is at his job... I don't see how anyone here can have a valid opinion on the hire. How it "looks" isn't a valid arguement when it's really the ONLY way you can even approach it in the first place. How it "looks" is simply not a reason to avoid hiring good people in the first place, and since we can't discuss if he's good or not, that makes it not even approachable.

My opinion on the hire? Meh... I'll never know if good or bad, so why even care?

Save the analysis for things that provide actual evidence into leading to real conclusions.

When Fenton makes good moves or bad based on tangible data, discuss that instead.
 
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thestonedkoala

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Why wouldn't he be good to go?

Team decision. Let the young guys play a few games to see how the offseason went. Maybe have Koivu go down to Iowa for a conditioning stint to make sure he is 100%? Lots of good things could happen with Koivu on the IR to start the season. I mean this team really showed what talent they had last season when they went deep in the playoffs last season right? Oh..yeah.
 

thestonedkoala

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I have concerns about a 36 year old coming back from major knee surgery, but there's nothing that an Iowa stint is going to do that camp and the preseason isn't.

What if he isn't ready? Why rush him? Milk it and see how the kids response in those couple of games. Koivu also gets a game or two in the minors and gets to help the kids there. Hell even Parise spent a game in the minors. But yeah with the lineup we have now, give a kid or two a chance before sending them down.
 

AKL

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What if he isn't ready? Why rush him? Milk it and see how the kids response in those couple of games. Koivu also gets a game or two in the minors and gets to help the kids there. Hell even Parise spent a game in the minors. But yeah with the lineup we have now, give a kid or two a chance before sending them down.

What's the point? Kunin and Ek would have to be phenomenal in those two games to supplant Koivu. Like 5 goals per game phenomenal. If Koivu is good to go he's going to be in the lineup. No reason to keep him out.
 

2Pair

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Maybe we could petition the league to see if the Wild could play a handful of games before the actual season starts? I feel like it could be a perfect opportunity to let the kids play a ton of minutes and show what they improved over the summer. :dunno:

Nah, let's just tell the captain, who has been working his ass off to rehab, to "MILK" it for a few games just so we can be sure that Joel f***ing Eriksson Ek is still terrible.
 

AKL

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Maybe we could petition the league to see if the Wild could play a handful of games before the actual season starts? I feel like it could be a perfect opportunity to let the kids play a ton of minutes and show what they improved over the summer. :dunno:

To be fair I'm pretty sure they call that "pre-season"
 

Digitalbooya

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Why wouldn't he be good to go?
In any event he wouldn’t be good to go. It’s not like setbacks are unheard of for older players trying to get back. Kunin didn’t start this past season healthy. Their injury time frames are not that different.
 

Wabit

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In any event he wouldn’t be good to go. It’s not like setbacks are unheard of for older players trying to get back. Kunin didn’t start this past season healthy. Their injury time frames are not that different.

Same injury time frame puts Koivu as ready before the start of camp. Koivu was injured in early Feb, Kunin in early March. Kunin was activated from IR and sent to Iowa the day after MN's home opener last season.

Yes there could be a setback or a longer recovery time, but this isn't Koivu's first rodeo with and injury. He'll probably end up like Suter: play opening day but look not quite right the entire season due to a lost offseason of training/workout.
 
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