Mikita vs Dionne

[pappyline]

Extra skater added to the roster. Also the Kelly trade meant that the Leafs had two forwards who were excellent short term options on defence. Kelly and Ron Stewart who had received AST votes as a defenceman.

Can you provide a source?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Can you provide a source?

Simply add the playoff GPs for the skaters. H-R has the data and the Kelly trade details. Board sticky has Ron Stewart AST voting.

 

[Michael Farkas]

1925-26 - Teams to dress a maximum of 12 players for each game from a roster of no more than 14 players.

1928-29 - Exclusive of goaltenders, team to dress at least 8 and no more than 12 skaters.

1938-39 - Maximum number of players in uniform increased from 14 to 15.

1942-43 - Player limit reduced from 15 to 14. Minimum of 12 men in uniform abolished.

1949-50 - Clubs allowed to dress 17 players exclusive of goaltenders.

1951-52 - Number of players in uniform reduced to 15 plus goaltenders.

1952-53 - Teams permitted to dress 15 skaters on the road and 16 at home.

1952-53 - Teams permitted to dress 15 skaters on the road and 16 at home.

1954-55 - Number of players in uniform set at 18 plus goaltenders up to December 1 and 16 plus goaltenders thereafter.

1960-61 - Number of players in uniform set at 16 plus goaltenders.

1965-66 - Teams required to dress two goaltenders for each regular-season game.

1971-72 - Number of players in uniform set at 17 plus 2 Goaltenders.

1982-83 - Number of players in uniform set at 18 plus 2 goaltenders.


National Hockey League (NHL) Major Rule Changes

 

[Canadiens1958]

These reference the annual meeting rule changes. Well into the eighties league would modify rules at September, December and February meetings.

 

[pappyline]

Simply add the playoff GPs for the skaters. H-R has the data and the Kelly trade details. Board sticky has Ron Stewart AST voting.

No need for all that, Number of players in uniform excluding goalies was set at 16 from 1955 through 1971. (see Mike Farkas post) Your statement that there was an increase from 1959 to 1960 is incorrect.

 

[Canadiens1958]

No need for all that, Number of players in uniform excluding goalies was set at 16 from 1955 through 1971. (see Mike Farcas post) Your statement that there was an increase from 1959 to 1960 is incorrect.

Those are not the official rules but unofficial summaries that do not reflect in season modifications.

They also contain errors. Prime example being the two goalie system which started in 1964-65 not 1965-66.

Then you have the additional issue that game rosters were typically defined in minimums - 1960-61 as an example teams could not dress less than 16 players(skaters) total of 1120 skater games possible.


Also the official NHL statistics for regular season and playoffs do not support what you would like to be true.

Examples

1959-6o Chicago Playoffs.16 players plus 1 goalie = 17 participants or 68 possible games since the Hawks were eliminated in 4 games,if each played in each game. Stats:

1959-60 Chicago Black Hawks Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

Clearly show 72 games by Hawk players or 18 participants.

1959-60 Red Wings Playoffs. Wings eliminated in 6 games. Stats:

1959-60 Detroit Red Wings Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

Total games 104 when your claim yields a maximum of 102(6 x17).

1959-60 Toronto Playoffs, finalists played 10 games, maximum 170 games your claim. Stats:

1959-60 Toronto Maple Leafs Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

Total games 177 not 170.

1959-60 Montreal playoffs. Champions playing 8 games. Maximum your claim 136 games. Stats:

1959-60 Montreal Canadiens Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

Total 142 games not 136.

So the playoff video evidence and statistical evidence does not support your claim.

 

[pappyline]

Those are not the official rules but unofficial summaries that do not reflect in season modifications.

They also contain errors. Prime example being the two goalie system which started in 1964-65 not 1965-66.

Then you have the additional issue that game rosters were typically defined in minimums - 1960-61 as an example teams could not dress less than 16 players(skaters) total of 1120 skater games possible.


Also the official NHL statistics for regular season and playoffs do not support what you would like to be true.

Examples

1959-6o Chicago Playoffs.16 players plus 1 goalie = 17 participants or 68 possible games since the Hawks were eliminated in 4 games,if each played in each game. Stats:

1959-60 Chicago Black Hawks Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

Clearly show 72 games by Hawk players or 18 participants.

1959-60 Red Wings Playoffs. Wings eliminated in 6 games. Stats:

1959-60 Detroit Red Wings Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

Total games 104 when your claim yields a maximum of 102(6 x17).

1959-60 Toronto Playoffs, finalists played 10 games, maximum 170 games your claim. Stats:

1959-60 Toronto Maple Leafs Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

Total games 177 not 170.

1959-60 Montreal playoffs. Champions playing 8 games. Maximum your claim 136 games. Stats:

1959-60 Montreal Canadiens Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

Total 142 games not 136.

So the playoff video evidence and statistical evidence does not support your claim.

You are making me weary. I am not spending any more time on this.The video evidence does support me. I know I am right and every time you make the comment that Montreal and Toronto consistently used a 4 line rotation in the 196o's, I am going to correct you.

 

[Canadiens1958]

You are making me weary. I am not spending any more time on this.The video evidence does support me. I know I am right and every time you make the comment that Montreal and Toronto consistently used a 4 line rotation in the 196o's, I am going to correct you.

No it does as previously you tried the deployment tactic when the video clearly showed 4 distinct lines used by Toronto and Montreal in less than a period of game time.

Now your other gambits have failed.

 

[Moose Head]

Both those islander rosters were substantially better then anything Dionne had to work with on the kings.



Frankly it's a moot point for me. I consider Potvin the 3rd or 4th best defenceman of all time. Was he more valuable then Dionne? Probably but like I said I'm higher on Dionne then most people.



This thread isn't about Potvin though, it's about Dionne vs Mikita and there I'd take Dionne.

Potvin joined a 30 pt team and had them within a game of the final in his second season on a team with no trottier or bossy. Dionne joined a 105pt kings team around the same time and they immediately dropped 20pts in the standings.

As for the OP, Mikita by quite a bit.

 

[streitz]

Potvin joined a 30 pt team and had them within a game of the final in his second season on a team with no trottier or bossy. Dionne joined a 105pt kings team around the same time and they immediately dropped 20pts in the standings.

As for the OP, Mikita by quite a bit.

Irrelevant. Unless you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that these players (potvin/Dionne) were 100% responsible for the respective changes in the standings then what you're saying doesn't matter at all.

 

[The Panther]

Irrelevant. Unless you can prove without a shadow of a doubt...

If we had to prove everything beyond a shadow of a doubt, there would be no forum.

 

[Canadiens1958]

"The Shadow Knows"

 

[Moose Head]

Irrelevant. Unless you can prove without a shadow of a doubt that these players (potvin/Dionne) were 100% responsible for the respective changes in the standings then what you're saying doesn't matter at all.

I didn’t say they were the only reasons but given they were each teams best player so they had the most impact on the success of their team. So yes, a teams success is very relevant in those circumstances.

You’re the one bringing up roster quality. You said Potvins rosters were better. I showed that, pre-Bossy/Trots that just wasn’t the case, but Potvins team achieved something great. Dionne’s regressed. So yes, very relevant.

 

[Killion]

"The Shadow Knows"

Yes, I see all. Still Haunting the place.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I didn’t say they were the only reasons but given they were each teams best player so they had the most impact on the success of their team. So yes, a teams success is very relevant in those circumstances.

You’re the one bringing up roster quality. You said Potvins rosters were better. I showed that, pre-Bossy/Trots that just wasn’t the case, but Potvins team achieved something great. Dionne’s regressed. So yes, very relevant.

Key point, Islanders did not give-up talent for Potvin. Kings overpaid for Dionne.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

I'm lower on Mikita than about everybody... and feel like I'm higher on Dionne than most. Still, I have about 20 places on my all-time 120 list between Mikita & Dionne.

Just the centers that I have between the two include Yzerman, Clarke, Syl Apps, and Schmidt.

It's the centers that I have above Mikita that might surprise folks...

 

[Moose Head]

Key point, Islanders did not give-up talent for Potvin. Kings overpaid for Dionne.

I Wouldn’t call Dan Maloney, a solid power forward type, and an old Terry Harper overpayment for a young 120pt Center.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I Wouldn’t call Dan Maloney, a solid power forward type, and an old Terry Harper overpayment for a young 120pt Center.

If you have replacements, no. Otherwise creating two holes to fill perhaps 1 as the Kings had three reasonable centers in Goring, Widing and St. Marsaille you get weaker.

 

[streitz]

Key point, Islanders did not give-up talent for Potvin. Kings overpaid for Dionne.

How exactly would the Islanders 'give up talent' for Potvin? They took him in the draft.



Aren't you the guy who thinks teams rolled 4 lines in the 50's and 60's?


Makes sense now.

 

[streitz]

I didn’t say they were the only reasons but given they were each teams best player so they had the most impact on the success of their team. So yes, a teams success is very relevant in those circumstances.

You’re the one bringing up roster quality. You said Potvins rosters were better. I showed that, pre-Bossy/Trots that just wasn’t the case, but Potvins team achieved something great. Dionne’s regressed. So yes, very relevant.

He had Trottier by his 3rd year.

 

[Moose Head]

He had Trottier by his 3rd year.

I know that. However, He got the Isles within a game of the finals in his second year though.

 

[Canadiens1958]

How exactly would the Islanders 'give up talent' for Potvin? They took him in the draft.



Aren't you the guy who thinks teams rolled 4 lines in the 50's and 60's?


Makes sense now.

Exactly. Building thru the draft.
Kings had to give up two starters thereby creating holes. Islanders just filled holes. No stepping back.

That two teams rolled four lines in the sixties has been proven with video, statistical and newspaper archive evidence where the fourth line is clearly defined and deployment explained.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Dionne was certainly the better offensive talent.

Mikita was the more complete and slightly overall better player.

modern way of asking the question would be Seguin vs Bergeron

 

[pappyline]

\
That two teams rolled four lines in the sixties has been proven with video, statistical and newspaper archive evidence where the fourth line is clearly defined and deployment explained.

Wrong

 

[Michael Farkas]

Just to maybe help mediate this...

C1958 in and around the time you're talking about, specifically for Montreal and Toronto, how much ice time or how many shifts would you consider to be "rolling" - does that represent a "regular" shift or does it just represent the presence of a fourth line (in whole, or in part) in certain scenarios?

i.e. one of their swingmen rotating up to forward with their other "extra" forward(s) in defensive zone situation vs. what Tampa currently dressing 11/7 and Nikita Kucherov takes the open spot every other fourth line shift to get away from line matchups...