Mikita vs Dionne

pappyline

Registered User
Jul 3, 2005
4,587
182
Mass/formerly Ont
To get credit for a game played a player had to have one second of running time on the ice. Dressed but no ice time = no game played

Spares created the 4th line, plus you had Bob Turner left over.

Check the playoffs for an easier overview.

Leafs. You overlooked MacMillan and Regan who combined for 68 games.

Ok, I guess Goyette dressed for 61 Games that he received some ice time. Shows Montreal's depth. Goyette was a regular before that season and put up some decent numbers in following seasons.

There were not enough forward spares dressed to create a 4th line. Bob turner was the spare defenseman and was used as a forward on the PK.

I noticed Regan and MacMillan but they only played 30 some games each and totaled together 16 points. They were not used as part of a regular 4th line.

I don't know where you are getting this 4th line stuff. Do you have a source? I am a little older than you and remember that era. I turned 14 in 1961 and could name every player in the league and their linemates. No team ran 4 lines back then.

This is probably the wrong thread for this discussion but I just couldn't let it pass.
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,206
17,561
Connecticut
It might be worth noting here that Mikita had the best plus/minus (i.e., 5-on-5 results) of any player in the 60s.

I dunno, I mean: 4 Art Rosses (vs. 1 Dionne), 6 First-team All Star (vs. 2 for Dionne), 2 Hart trophies (vs. none for Dionne), better playoff stats than Dionne's (despite Mikita's playing in a less offensive era), and Mikita was the most dominant 5-on-5 player of his era.

I'm going to say 2nd (at least) to Orr.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,773
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Ok, I guess Goyette dressed for 61 Games that he received some ice time. Shows Montreal's depth. Goyette was a regular before that season and put up some decent numbers in following seasons.

There were not enough forward spares dressed to create a 4th line. Bob turner was the spare defenseman and was used as a forward on the PK.

I noticed Regan and MacMillan but they only played 30 some games each and totaled together 16 points. They were not used as part of a regular 4th line.

I don't know where you are getting this 4th line stuff. Do you have a source? I am a little older than you and remember that era. I turned 14 in 1961 and could name every player in the league and their linemates. No team ran 4 lines back then.

This is probably the wrong thread for this discussion but I just couldn't let it pass.

Look at the playoffs and the four lines are evident without having to look at complete season data.

BTW the Hawks that year used four lines at various points.
 

pappyline

Registered User
Jul 3, 2005
4,587
182
Mass/formerly Ont
Look at the playoffs and the four lines are evident without having to look at complete season data.

BTW the Hawks that year used four lines at various points.

Sure teams would threw out a makeshift 4th line occasionally usually by double shifting a regular but that is not what you were saying. You have stated that Montreal & Toronto ran a regular 4 line rotation and that is untrue.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,773
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Sure teams would threw out a makeshift 4th line occasionally usually by double shifting a regular but that is not what you were saying. You have stated that Montreal & Toronto ran a regular 4 line rotation and that is untrue.

Montreal and Toronto regularly ran four lines. Shift length varied as it does today, likewise deployment of players. A necessity of playing the Sunday road game.

You do not generate the numbers 4 deep at each forward position like they did otherwise nor do you have game ready depth for the playoffs.

Conversely and ties into Mikita compared to Dionne. The point gap between both Dionne and Mikita and linemates is such that it is clear when they were extra shifted.
 

pappyline

Registered User
Jul 3, 2005
4,587
182
Mass/formerly Ont
Montreal and Toronto regularly ran four lines. Shift length varied as it does today, likewise deployment of players. A necessity of playing the Sunday road game.

You do not generate the numbers 4 deep at each forward position like they did otherwise nor do you have game ready depth for the playoffs.

Conversely and ties into Mikita compared to Dionne. The point gap between both Dionne and Mikita and linemates is such that it is clear when they were extra shifted.

Didn't happen. I was there.
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
28,585
15,948
Both those islander rosters were substantially better then anything Dionne had to work with on the kings.

jude drouin? parise's dad? that was a literal expansion team, plus rookie trottier in year two.

dionne's number two center in the 70s was butch goring. the islanders didn't start winning until they acquired him to be their number two center.
 

Tarantula

Hanging around the web
Aug 31, 2017
4,451
2,863
GTA
Dionne gets short changed here by some, in my opinion. He accomplished quite a bit while playing for poor teams with a low profile. Mikita was more well rounded and if I had to choose between the two I would side with Stan.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,773
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
I suggest you watch some video of games from the early 60's because you are wrong.

Suggest following your own advice.

Game 2, 1960 SC finals , roughly the equivalent of one period.



We see the following four lines deployed by Montreal.

Bonin-Beliveau-Geoffrion
Moore-H.Richard-M.Richard
Pronovost-Goyette-Provost
Marshall-Backstrom-Hicke

This is supported with a deployment explanation in the game notes from the Gazette:

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

The Leafs also used four lines except Billy Harris was not dressed after being announced as in the pre-game line-up.

The Leafs, double shifted Gary Edmundson.

Olmstead-Pulford-Stewart
Mahovlich-Kelly-Edmundson
Duff-Regan-Armstrong
Wilson-Edmundson-James

The Wilson-Edmundson-James line is shown on the ice taking a defensive zone faceoff against the Moore-H-Richard-M.Richard line.

The video also shows the variable shift lengths, the point men on the PP as well as the Leafs using defencemen to take defensive zone faceoffs.
 

pappyline

Registered User
Jul 3, 2005
4,587
182
Mass/formerly Ont
Suggest following your own advice.

Game 2, 1960 SC finals , roughly the equivalent of one period.



We see the following four lines deployed by Montreal.

Bonin-Beliveau-Geoffrion
Moore-H.Richard-M.Richard
Pronovost-Goyette-Provost
Marshall-Backstrom-Hicke

This is supported with a deployment explanation in the game notes from the Gazette:

The Montreal Gazette - Recherche d'archives de Google Actualités

The Leafs also used four lines except Billy Harris was not dressed after being announced as in the pre-game line-up.

The Leafs, double shifted Gary Edmundson.

Olmstead-Pulford-Stewart
Mahovlich-Kelly-Edmundson
Duff-Regan-Armstrong
Wilson-Edmundson-James

The Wilson-Edmundson-James line is shown on the ice taking a defensive zone faceoff against the Moore-H-Richard-M.Richard line.

The video also shows the variable shift lengths, the point men on the PP as well as the Leafs using defencemen to take defensive zone faceoffs.


I just watched it. I see both teams rotating 3 regular lines;

Montreal

Bonin-Beliveau-Geoffrion
Moore-Richard-Richard
Pronovost-Goyette-Provost

At the very end of the clip, I see Backstrom & Hicke out for their first shift. I am not sure who the LW was. Anyway they were not part of the regular rotation.

Toronto

Duff-Reagan -Armstrong
Olmstead-Pulford-Stewart
Mahovlich-Kelly-Edmundson

I never noticed Wilson & James on the ice at all. If they were it must of been very very brief.

I also watched a period of the 1959 Toronto/ Boston game in the sticky above. Toronto ran 3 lines:

Mahovlich-Harris-Ehman
Duff-Reagan-Armstrong
Olmstead-Pulford-Stewart
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nick Hansen

Neutrinos

Registered User
Sep 23, 2016
8,587
3,597
Are you guys in the right thread?

The discussion is supposed to be about Mikita vs Dionne

Not whether or not the Leafs and Habs ran 3 lines or 4 way back in the 60's
 
  • Like
Reactions: double5son10

hector morrison

Registered User
Apr 1, 2018
4,792
1,998
I thought this might make for an interesting discussion since both players were short, right-handed shooting offensive stars

Which one was better?
Gramps would say Stan,cause was his favorite player,I say Marcel cause he was great,also ,I eat lunch at his restaurant sometimes! Very nice man!
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,773
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
I just watched it. I see both teams rotating 3 regular lines;

Montreal

Bonin-Beliveau-Geoffrion
Moore-Richard-Richard
Pronovost-Goyette-Provost

At the very end of the clip, I see Backstrom & Hicke out for their first shift. I am not sure who the LW was. Anyway they were not part of the regular rotation.

Toronto

Duff-Reagan -Armstrong
Olmstead-Pulford-Stewart
Mahovlich-Kelly-Edmundson

I never noticed Wilson & James on the ice at all. If they were it must of been very very brief.

I also watched a period of the 1959 Toronto/ Boston game in the sticky above. Toronto ran 3 lines:

Mahovlich-Harris-Ehman
Duff-Reagan-Armstrong
Olmstead-Pulford-Stewart

Toronto 4th line at the start, Montreal at the end.

There are gaps in the action. The lines are clearly identified by Danny Gallivan and the hockey notes from The Gazette by Dink Carroll are quite explicit and coincide with the official game summary:

Toronto Maple Leafs - Montréal Canadiens - April 9th, 1960

You can also reconstruct games 1,3 and 4 from the link. All featured four lines per team.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,773
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Are you guys in the right thread?

The discussion is supposed to be about Mikita vs Dionne

Not whether or not the Leafs and Habs ran 3 lines or 4 way back in the 60's

Indirectly impacts on perceptions of Stan Mikita who played on a three line team.

Canadiens and Leafs rolling 4 lines means that their top 2 centers - Beliveau and Henri Richard plus Kelly and Keon had less ice time than Mikita so Mikita's scoring is far less impressive.
 

Nick Hansen

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
3,119
2,649
Indirectly impacts on perceptions of Stan Mikita who played on a three line team.

Canadiens and Leafs rolling 4 lines means that their top 2 centers - Beliveau and Henri Richard plus Kelly and Keon had less ice time than Mikita so Mikita's scoring is far less impressive.

There is always two sides to the coin that some of you try to make a coin having only one side. Playing more is more tiring as well.
 

pappyline

Registered User
Jul 3, 2005
4,587
182
Mass/formerly Ont
Toronto 4th line at the start, Montreal at the end.

There are gaps in the action. The lines are clearly identified by Danny Gallivan and the hockey notes from The Gazette by Dink Carroll are quite explicit and coincide with the official game summary:

Toronto Maple Leafs - Montréal Canadiens - April 9th, 1960

You can also reconstruct games 1,3 and 4 from the link. All featured four lines per team.

Throwing out a makeshift line for a brief shift once or twice a game does not constitute rotating 4 lines. I don't know how to get this across to you. You are just being obstinate. Did you watch the 59 game. Toronto rotated 3 lines 1-2-3 for the whole 2nd period.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,773
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
Throwing out a makeshift line for a brief shift once or twice a game does not constitute rotating 4 lines. I don't know how to get this across to you. You are just being obstinate. Did you watch the 59 game. Toronto rotated 3 lines 1-2-3 for the whole 2nd period.

1959 has no impact on 1960.

The gap today between 1st and 4th liners TOI today is in the 23:00 minutes vs 8:00 minutes rather constant over the years so by your standards even today we have three line hockey.
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->