Speculation: Mike Babcock fired by the Leafs, should we take him back?

Discussion in 'Detroit Red Wings' started by Henkka, Nov 18, 2019.

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Should we take Babcock back?

Poll closed Dec 18, 2019.
  1. Yes - fire Blashill and bring Babcock back at this season, if Babcock gets fired

    33 vote(s)
    11.7%
  2. Yes - keep Blashill for rest of the contract and bring Babcock back later, starting at 2021

    14 vote(s)
    4.9%
  3. No - keep Blashill for rest of the contract, and make coaching change at 2021

    118 vote(s)
    41.7%
  4. No - fire Blashill and bring in some other coach.

    118 vote(s)
    41.7%
  1. TheClap

    TheClap Registered User

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    Tatar. Hudler. Kyle Quincey. Kopecky. Best seasons all away from Babcock.

    Babs was in Detroit for 9 years, so there isn't a huge sample size of guys that got a chance elsewhere, especially during an era when the Wings liked to rarely give a prospect a chance until their RFA rights were exhausted.

    Inverse though, who are the guys that struggled elsewhere but excelled under Babcock? Dan Cleary defintely. Drew Miller sure. Sammy had his career jumpstarted but his best seasons were in Vancouver after he left Detroit.

    There may be a longer list of guys who were successful elsewhere and struggled under Babcock. Kyle Quincey: The Return, Stephen Weiss, Jordan Tootoo, David Legwand, Tyson Barrie and the rest of the 2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs.

    Time will tell. We'll see what happens with Marner, Matthews, Nylander and the other young Leafs.
     
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  2. TheClap

    TheClap Registered User

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    Yep. Can't have a coach and a GM that have such conflicting directions for the team and expect to be successful.

    Dubas will be feeling the hotseat himself soon enough if Keefe can't right the ship.
     
  3. Pavels Dog

    Pavels Dog Registered User

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    Tatar's 29 goal season is his best imo, but regardless I really don't think him or other skill players were mishandled by Babcock. If we're talking about young players being developed, if you want to give coaches ANY credit for it, you have to give Babcock credit for Nyquist, Hudler, Franzen, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Filppula, Tatar and maybe more. Not just bottom 6 grinders. You can't selectively pick and choose which players you think the coach deserves credit for developing. As if any skilled guy that becomes good was just destined to become good, but the coach ruins other skilled guy that don't become as good.

    Now you bring a bunch of veterans into the mix which muddles the discussion. Circling back to Toronto, Matthews & Marner have put up amazing numbers, Rielly's developed into an all-star (after not developing so much in the years prior to Babcock arriving), and Nylander was having a very strong season. If anything it was the bottom 6 grinders, the stay-at-home defense, the grit and physicality that was missing for that team. Skill and offense was not.
     
  4. 14ari13

    14ari13 Registered User

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    Howard was asked to do too much. Firstly in regular season and then playoffs.
    He never recovered after the loss to sharks.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
  5. MBH

    MBH Registered User

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    Seemed like the Chicago series was his last Hoorah.
     
  6. ManwithNoIdentity

    ManwithNoIdentity Registered User

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  7. Ricelund

    Ricelund ̶W̶e̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶t̶e̶a̶m̶ Sponsor

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  8. TheClap

    TheClap Registered User

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  9. ricky0034

    ricky0034 Registered User

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    how many of those examples played under said coach for 200+ games though?

    Babcock had a LOT of time with Smith and Kindl,it's impossible to really tell for sure what ultimate effect he had on them but the idea that a coach can have a positive impact on a player long term in a year or two but somehow can't have a negative one even if they play for him for half a decade is what's really "completely ridiculous" here
     
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  10. The Zetterberg Era

    The Zetterberg Era The Captain is Home!

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    So this is another person that references abuse of just regular JLA staff. You could be the guy that changes the garbage and if you didn't do it right...

    No, I don't think all people are equating them, just more Bowman did some pretty reprehensible things in his own right. I really doubt a bunch of people are going to talk on it above what they have, but he used to bully guys pretty good, he generally got his targets moved out of town though.

    Keep in mind through 2009 Bowman and Babcock talked daily when Scotty was in his consulting role. That was really his biggest role once he moved back to Buffalo was the constant communication with Babcock. I think Babcock is a Bowman want to be that couldn't pull it off in the same manner and what went from bad attempts, became spectacularly bad attempts once he couldn't clear some of his ideas or take Scotty's ideas on tough love and apply them. It is why it has gotten progressively worse and more dug in. But that is my opinion. I have heard plenty of stories on Bowman that aren't great either, but ultimately he had a much better feel for the line on most of his players and the people around him. I mean think of how often Ken Daniels tells the story of Bowman MFering him in the lobby and not talking to him for 6 or so weeks because he was unhappy with something he said. Was it crazy different than Babcock on Strickland, probably not only Bowman and Daniels did eventually talk and he did a much better job of re-establishing the relationship. Babcock seemed to want to establish dominance and keep it. Bowman wanted to establish dominance, but ultimately I think he wanted you to see he was working towards something. Babcock missed out on that part of his teachings in my opinion and just focused in on the endless mind games and preparation habits Bowman was known for, but Scotty figured out how to get to other levels beyond and if he was going to give up on you he just got you traded instead of keeping you for whipping boy purposes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2019
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  11. TheClap

    TheClap Registered User

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    There are people absolutely equating the two, normalizing Babcock's prickish behavior because "Bowman was a jerk too." They're missing the key difference that you've so eloquently just explained.

    I 100% agree with your assessment of the differences in Bowman's and Babcock's tactics, and that is precisely why Bowman is almost universally praised, and the other is getting universally lambasted.
     
  12. MBH

    MBH Registered User

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    Key thing:
    “That’s the key. In spite of him, right? In spite of him. And I learned that more getting into ’09 because we won in ’08 in spite of him and lost in ’09 because of him. That’s exactly the thing because he misused (Pavel) Datsyuk, (Henrik) Zetterberg and just because he’s stubborn and that was his way.”

    In a thousand years, I'll never understand why
    Holmstrom-Datsyuk-Zetterberg
    Franzen-Flip-Hossa
    wasn't good enough
     
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  13. Dotter

    Dotter life feels like a test I didn’t study for

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    I didn't click open the article. And I know your post is directed towards me. But what cost the Detroit Red Wings the cup in 2009 was the Pittsburgh Penguins, who were the better team when it mattered most.

    I think it's cowardly to not accept that Pittsburgh was the better team and they fully deserved the Stanley Cup.
     
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  14. Lazlo Hollyfeld

    Lazlo Hollyfeld Pitter Patter

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    That's what's so stupid about all of this. Now that the lynch mob has started Babcock is getting blamed for everything Wings fans were ever disappointed about.

    Not winning the cup in 09. Any prospect who didn't turn into a good NHL player. That Datsyuk and Zetterberg didn't magically continue their peak point production into their late 30s.

    It muddies the actual issue of what is acceptable behavior for a coach now and bringing a culture change into hockey. To a man (minus Commodore) all the players being referenced still admit that Babcock was a good coach. Babcock is not unique in coaching for being stubborn. That's not the issue. The issue is a code of conduct and professionalism and what is acceptable and what is not.
     
  15. Retire91

    Retire91 Let's go Red Wings, clap, clap, fall on face Sponsor

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    I just kinda have 3 takeaways. He is not as good a coach as people thought he was, but he is also not a bad coach. And he is a jerk to his players more so than typical coaches. And that some organizations will overlook his jerkness because they want/need a good coach.

    I don't think his personality sheds much light on anything that happened differently, it doesn't explain anything. It is just eye opening.
     
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  16. ManwithNoIdentity

    ManwithNoIdentity Registered User

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    Well he does have a hand in a lot of that but it really is ridiculous all these people coming out and kicking him while he’s down
     
  17. Dotter

    Dotter life feels like a test I didn’t study for

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    This is fair.
     
  18. Bondurant

    Bondurant Registered User

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    I doubt McCarty's opinions of Babcock have changed over the years. He's just now being asked to share them. My only critique of McCarty would be giving any quotes to Carlos.
     
  19. 2xJack

    2xJack Registered User

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    So, the teams meet in 2008 and the Wings win, and then we add Hossa. Yet in 2009 the Penguins are better? Right.
     
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  20. 2xJack

    2xJack Registered User

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    The Babcock defenders need to give up now. The dam has broken. I expect the stories to continue rolling in, it seems there is more than enough material to air. This has gone far beyond just looking bad for him.

    Regarding the Babcock vs Bowman comparisons, I think a very key difference that many are missing is that while Bowman did play mind games with his players, he was a master of beating the opposition mentally. Anyone remember Crawford's meltdown? Scotty's classic "I knew your father before you did" line? Bowman never took his eye off winning. He knew who he needed on his side and only pushed people over the line when they were on the other team. Basically, anything he did to play with the minds of his own players was child's play compared to what he did to opponents. Babcock, on the other hand, is more like the Bobby Knight of the NHL.
     
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  21. ManwithNoIdentity

    ManwithNoIdentity Registered User

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    I really don’t see anyone rushing to defend Babcock
     
  22. nhlisawesome

    nhlisawesome Registered User

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    I'll stand by it. Babcock is/was an excellent coach who can lead a team to the promised land.
     
  23. Ricelund

    Ricelund ̶W̶e̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶t̶e̶a̶m̶ Sponsor

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    Not directed at you in particular and you’re missing the point.
     
  24. Dotter

    Dotter life feels like a test I didn’t study for

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    Don't be a sore loser. Just accept they were the better team.
     
  25. MBH

    MBH Registered User

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    Why is it ridiculous?
    Did Babcock care if he kicked guys while they were down?
     

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