Speculation: Mike Babcock fired by the Leafs, should we take him back?

[odin1981]

He is the kinda coach who you hire when the team is on the cusp and just can't get over the hump. He isn't a coach that is good with developing young players that aren't bottom 6 grinders.

 

[14ari13]

He is the kinda coach who you hire when the team is on the cusp and just can't get over the hump. He isn't a coach that is good with developing young players that aren't bottom 6 grinders.

Maybe. But he will have to prove it.
How many has he won?

 

[14ari13]

Btw leafs won 5 after firing him, now they lost 2.

 

[Dotter]

Btw leafs won 5 after firing him, now they lost 2.

There's usually a surge after a coaching change. Same thing will happen if Blashill gets replaced, there will be a small bump... then they'll fall back down to their usual suckage.

 

[14ari13]

There's usually a surge after a coaching change. Same thing will happen if Blashill gets replaced, there will be a small bump... then they'll fall back down to their usual suckage.

we all should know that.

Now when everything falls to its place is the time to see what happens. I kind of think they have no chance of making playoffs

 

[Henkka]

Btw leafs won 5 after firing him, now they lost 2.

4 wins and 3 losses.

Keefe honey-weeks seem to be over and the Dubas-fundamentals on roster building are coming back.

Problem is Dubas, not Keefe or Babcock.

 

[14ari13]

4 wins and 3 losses.

Keefe honey-weeks seem to be over and the Dubas-fundamentals on roster building are coming back.

Problem is Dubas, not Keefe or Babcock.

You are right.
3 wins, 1 draw (win) and 3 losses.
They are surrounded by teams which are good and fighting for the playoffs spots.

 

[Pavels Dog]

He is the kinda coach who you hire when the team is on the cusp and just can't get over the hump. He isn't a coach that is good with developing young players that aren't bottom 6 grinders.

Most young players in Toronto have done amazing under him. A lot of youngsters in Detroit played their best hockey under him (Sheahan, Tatar, Jurco, Nyquist, Dekeyser etc). You might even go back to when he started in Detroit and guys like Dats, Z and Franzen broke out as star players while he was coach. Filppula and Hudler developed well, as did Howard. And so on.
How much of that is him "developing" them I don't know, but if you don't count any of that as evidence that he's good at it, I would certainly like to see the evidence that he isn't good at developing young players.

 

[TheClap]

Most young players in Toronto have done amazing under him. A lot of youngsters in Detroit played their best hockey under him (Sheahan, Tatar, Jurco, Nyquist, Dekeyser etc). You might even go back to when he started in Detroit and guys like Dats, Z and Franzen broke out as star players while he was coach. Filppula and Hudler developed well, as did Howard. And so on.
How much of that is him "developing" them I don't know, but if you don't count any of that as evidence that he's good at it, I would certainly like to see the evidence that he isn't good at developing young players.

Tatar's best season is right now, and last year in Montreal.
Jurco was used with primarily with grinders in limited minutes and likely had his development as a scoring line winger hampered by Babcock and is now basically out of the NHL. He Kopecky'ed him.
Nyquist has been just as productive in San Jose as he was in Detroit.
Dekeyser had the benefit of playing with a more talented roster his first seasons with Babcock which elevated his play and he could pair with a better partner, instead of now being "The Guy," and expected to log top pair minutes in a role he is obviously over his head in. He's also been injury prone which likely has a lot to do with it. He also looked very solid last year and this year and on par with his best Babcock season when healthy.
Hudler's best year came in Calgary prior to his coke problems.
Filppula's best years in Tampa are on par with his best years in Detroit.
Howard.... I mean.... really? He was an above average starter when he was younger that became an inconsistent, injury prone mess. I don't know how much props you can give to Babcock for "developing" him.
Dats and Z obviously excelled under him, but they were also already excelling and trending in that direction under Dave Lewis leading up to the lockout.
Franzen broke out when replacing Homer as a netfront force with Dats and Z after he went down with injury, so sure.

The evidence of him failing to develop guys are right there. Guys like Jurco, and especially the defensemen. Kindl, Marchenko, Brendan Smith, and to lesser extent Oullett. Maybe they still suck and never amount to anything, but maybe they develop without an a**hole coach that scratches, punishes, and belittles them for every small mistake and aren't playing scared and timid all the time. Or in the case of Brendan Smith, gets used in situations more catered to his strengths, such as the PP, instead of being used mainly on the PK. Maybe he develops those offensive areas of his game more to better mask the defensive deficiencies and general boneheadedness he always had if he's allowed to play in those situtaions.

Glendening/Franzen are probably his greatest success and guys I'd credit him the most for. These are the types of guys Babcock is really good at getting the most out of. Even Abby and Helm in their primes Babs gets absolute credit for. Marginally talented, strong work ethic types he seems to get more out of than anyone else. Franzen falls in this category as well, coming into the league as a strong defensive checking line center that showed he had some pretty great offensive flair once given an opportunity in that role.

His track record with offensively minded players (unless they have a strong pre-existing 2 way game) is not great. And his track record with young defensemen is pretty abysmal.

 

[MBH]

4 wins and 3 losses.

Keefe honey-weeks seem to be over and the Dubas-fundamentals on roster building are coming back.

Problem is Dubas, not Keefe or Babcock.

That's a good f***ing roster.
Johnsson-Matthews-Nylander
Mikjeyev-Tavares-Marner
Hyman-Kerfoot-Kapanen
Engvall-Spezza-Timashov

Reilly-Barrie
Muzzin-Holl
Dermott-Ceci

They could use a bit more toughness and grit, but the analytics guys seem to think that's a myth.

 

[14ari13]

Tatar's best season is right now, and last year in Montreal.
Jurco was used with primarily with grinders in limited minutes and likely had his development as a scoring line winger hampered by Babcock and is now basically out of the NHL. He Kopecky'ed him.
Nyquist has been just as productive in San Jose as he was in Detroit.
Dekeyser had the benefit of playing with a more talented roster his first seasons with Babcock which elevated his play and he could pair with a better partner, instead of now being "The Guy," and expected to log top pair minutes in a role he is obviously over his head in. He's also been injury prone which likely has a lot to do with it. He also looked very solid last year and this year and on par with his best Babcock season when healthy.
Hudler's best year came in Calgary prior to his coke problems.
Filppula's best years in Tampa are on par with his best years in Detroit.
Howard.... I mean.... really? He was an above average starter when he was younger that became an inconsistent, injury prone mess. I don't know how much props you can give to Babcock for "developing" him.
Dats and Z obviously excelled under him, but they were also already excelling and trending in that direction under Dave Lewis leading up to the lockout.
Franzen broke out when replacing Homer as a netfront force with Dats and Z after he went down with injury, so sure.

The evidence of him failing to develop guys are right there. Guys like Jurco, and especially the defensemen. Kindl, Marchenko, Brendan Smith, and to lesser extent Oullett. Maybe they still suck and never amount to anything, but maybe they develop without an a**hole coach that scratches, punishes, and belittles them for every small mistake and aren't playing scared and timid all the time. Or in the case of Brendan Smith, gets used in situations more catered to his strengths, such as the PP, instead of being used mainly on the PK. Maybe he develops those offensive areas of his game more to better mask the defensive deficiencies and general boneheadedness he always had if he's allowed to play in those situtaions.

Glendening/Franzen are probably his greatest success and guys I'd credit him the most for. These are the types of guys Babcock is really good at getting the most out of. Even Abby and Helm in their primes Babs gets absolute credit for. Marginally talented, strong work ethic types he seems to get more out of than anyone else. Franzen falls in this category as well, coming into the league as a strong defensive checking line center that showed he had some pretty great offensive flair once given an opportunity in that role.

His track record with offensively minded players (unless they have a strong pre-existing 2 way game) is not great. And his track record with young defensemen is pretty abysmal.

Babcock destroyed Howard career. Howard was great in his first 2 seasons. Babcock used him in back to back games.

 

[odin1981]

That's a good ****ing roster.
Johnsson-Matthews-Nylander
Mikjeyev-Tavares-Marner
Hyman-Kerfoot-Kapanen
Engvall-Spezza-Timashov

Reilly-Barrie
Muzzin-Holl
Dermott-Ceci

They could use a bit more toughness and grit, but the analytics guys seem to think that's a myth.

Roster is way to top 6 heavy and in comparison to other playoff or bubble teams has the worst defense.

 

[Henkka]

Babcock destroyed Howard career. Howard was great in his first 2 seasons. Babcock used him in back to back games.

Somehow legit point. Now there has been a lot of discussions, like with Henrik Lundqvist how it could be better to split more games and have a more of goalie duo, to keep bodies healty.

That would be key to regular season, not mcuh for the playoffs, because playoff schedule is always easier. You can go with starter-only there.

 

[14ari13]

Somehow legit point. Now there has been a lot of discussions, like with Henrik Lundqvist how it could be better to split more games and have a more of goalie duo, to keep bodies healty.

That would be key to regular season, not mcuh for the playoffs, because playoff schedule is always easier. You can go with starter-only there.

Howard played great. Babcock asked him to play back to back.
I think he overused him. Babcock did not manage it well enough.

 

[MBH]

Roster is way to top 6 heavy and in comparison to other playoff or bubble teams has the worst defense.

Yeah but Tavares-Marner on one line, Matthews-Nylander on another. That's not top 6 heavy.
That's two line 1s on just about any team in the NHL. Kerfoot and Kapanen are fine on most L3s.

I think, as a whole, too soft.

 

[odin1981]

Yeah but Tavares-Marner on one line, Matthews-Nylander on another. That's not top 6 heavy.
That's two line 1s on just about any team in the NHL. Kerfoot and Kapanen are fine on most L3s.

I think, as a whole, too soft.

In a cap league that's a good line is two players and a passenger sadly.

 

[Henkka]

That's a good ****ing roster.
Reilly-Barrie
Muzzin-Holl
Dermott-Ceci

They could use a bit more toughness and grit, but the analytics guys seem to think that's a myth.

They just need more defencemen who can actually defend.

On the Flyers loss, the ne-front was totally open and Flyers kept a party there.

That same flaw has been on the team all the time, which Dubas ignores.

Another 1st round exit coming until something is done for that flaw.

 

[MBH]

They just need more defencemen who can actually defend.

On the Flyers loss, the ne-front was totally open and Flyers kept a party there.

That same flaw has been on the team all the time, which Dubas ignores.

Another 1st round exit coming until something is done for that flaw.

Why they wanted Tyson Barrie is beyond me.
I would have gone after a RH Muzzin.
I would have kept Marchenko.

 

[Squirrel in the Hole]

Most young players in Toronto have done amazing under him. A lot of youngsters in Detroit played their best hockey under him (Sheahan, Tatar, Jurco, Nyquist, Dekeyser etc). You might even go back to when he started in Detroit and guys like Dats, Z and Franzen broke out as star players while he was coach. Filppula and Hudler developed well, as did Howard. And so on.
How much of that is him "developing" them I don't know, but if you don't count any of that as evidence that he's good at it, I would certainly like to see the evidence that he isn't good at developing young players.

That's certainly not happening now. Larkin, Bertuzzi, Mantha seem to be developing in spite of Blashill.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Tatar's best season is right now, and last year in Montreal.
Jurco was used with primarily with grinders in limited minutes and likely had his development as a scoring line winger hampered by Babcock and is now basically out of the NHL. He Kopecky'ed him.
Nyquist has been just as productive in San Jose as he was in Detroit.
Dekeyser had the benefit of playing with a more talented roster his first seasons with Babcock which elevated his play and he could pair with a better partner, instead of now being "The Guy," and expected to log top pair minutes in a role he is obviously over his head in. He's also been injury prone which likely has a lot to do with it. He also looked very solid last year and this year and on par with his best Babcock season when healthy.
Hudler's best year came in Calgary prior to his coke problems.
Filppula's best years in Tampa are on par with his best years in Detroit.
Howard.... I mean.... really? He was an above average starter when he was younger that became an inconsistent, injury prone mess. I don't know how much props you can give to Babcock for "developing" him.
Dats and Z obviously excelled under him, but they were also already excelling and trending in that direction under Dave Lewis leading up to the lockout.
Franzen broke out when replacing Homer as a netfront force with Dats and Z after he went down with injury, so sure.

The evidence of him failing to develop guys are right there. Guys like Jurco, and especially the defensemen. Kindl, Marchenko, Brendan Smith, and to lesser extent Oullett. Maybe they still suck and never amount to anything, but maybe they develop without an a**hole coach that scratches, punishes, and belittles them for every small mistake and aren't playing scared and timid all the time. Or in the case of Brendan Smith, gets used in situations more catered to his strengths, such as the PP, instead of being used mainly on the PK. Maybe he develops those offensive areas of his game more to better mask the defensive deficiencies and general boneheadedness he always had if he's allowed to play in those situtaions.

Glendening/Franzen are probably his greatest success and guys I'd credit him the most for. These are the types of guys Babcock is really good at getting the most out of. Even Abby and Helm in their primes Babs gets absolute credit for. Marginally talented, strong work ethic types he seems to get more out of than anyone else. Franzen falls in this category as well, coming into the league as a strong defensive checking line center that showed he had some pretty great offensive flair once given an opportunity in that role.

His track record with offensively minded players (unless they have a strong pre-existing 2 way game) is not great. And his track record with young defensemen is pretty abysmal.

Summary: every player that became good became good in spite of Babcock, every player that didn't, didn't become good because of Babcock.

Gotcha. Zero bias in that analysis for sure.

 

[MBH]

Btw leafs won 5 after firing him, now they lost 2.

Dead cat bounce?

 

[MBH]

Howard played great. Babcock asked him to play back to back.
I think he overused him. Babcock did not manage it well enough.

Howard sucked in his second season. He dropped from .924 and 2.26 to .908 and 2.79.
He rebounded for two more very good years.
Unfortunately, Holland agreed to that six-year contract in the second of those back-to-back very good years.
And then as soon as the contract started, Howard regressed.
Howard's injuries might have more to do with him being out of shape. The last few years I've seen a lot of pictures of him where he looks the designated hitter for the 1982 Brewers.

 

[TheClap]

Summary: every player that became good became good in spite of Babcock, every player that didn't, didn't become good because of Babcock.

Gotcha. Zero bias in that analysis for sure.

You lack reading comprehension.

I'll summarize again since you didn't bother making an effort.

He does great with strong 2 way players, he squeezes the most out of defensive forwards with strong work ethic. Franzen, Glendening, Abby, Helm I fully give him credit for. Zetterberg and Datsyuk were trending toward greatness before him, but they obviously excelled under him even if they hated his guts.

He has done very poorly with young defensemen.
He has generally done poorly with young forwards that have offensive potential but aren't defensively very good or "soft."

This has been true both in Detroit and Toronto.

 

[Pavels Dog]

You lack reading comprehension. I credited Babcock for several players, including Franzen, Glendening, Abby, Helm.

Which is just silly. You're trying to fit things into a narrative and therefore you're ignoring for example how much Tatar improved under Babcock. I'd argue that Babcock got more out of Brendan Smith and Jakub Kindl than anyone else.
Those with memories know that Jurco got lots of chances to be a scoring line player but it never worked out. That's another guy that has never been as good as he was under Babcock. The idea that a coach can ruin someone's development is completely ridiculous, there are countless examples of players that were mishandled by coaches and went on to fulfill their potential for other coaches. Guys don't forget talent because they're used on a 4th line or on the PK instead of the top 6 and PP.

Tbh I don't really give a whole lot of credit to coaches overall for "developing" players, but I do think coaches can push players in the right directions that make them better players or fulfill their talent, but it's not gonna make the difference between a Kindl and a Hedman. The fact that there's almost no player we can look at that did poorly under Babcock and say "look, he went elsewhere and did much better" is a strong indication that Babcock does get the most out of players, both offensively minded players and grinders.

 

[Henkka]

I'll summarize again since you didn't bother making an effort.

He does great with strong 2 way players, he squeezes the most out of defensive forwards with strong work ethic. Franzen, Glendening, Abby, Helm I fully give him credit for. Zetterberg and Datsyuk were trending toward greatness before him, but they obviously excelled under him even if they hated his guts.

He has done very poorly with young defensemen.
He has generally done poorly with young forwards that have offensive potential but aren't defensively very good or "soft."

Quite funny those Dumas summer moves.

- "does great with strong 2-way players." - Dubas trades his best defensive/matchup center Kadri away. Season ago left Bozak walk (wins Cup at St. Louis)
- "squeezes the most out of defensive forwards. - Dubas trades also Connor Brown to Ottawa, who is now 1st minute logger there.
- "has done poorly with young defencemen. - Dubas did get rid of veteran defemen, and next options on line are just Marlies prospects.

So Dubas has built the exactly opposite direction, which have been Babcock's bread and butter.

Guy didn't give a shit about his coaches wishes.