OT: Michigan Sports Thread: The 1-3 Edition

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jkutswings

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Fair enough. It's not really the Lions I feel bad for but their fans. We can talk about people not showing up, not buying the merch, etc., but it's their team and football seasons are really short.

The Fords might not deserve better, but the fans do.
I hear you. There are lots of different types of fans, each entitled to their own style of fandom. But considering that I actively rooted against the Wings for a few years due to lack of ROI in the product (despite all their previous success), I'm not losing any sleep over the disaster in Allen Park until they hold themselves accountable.
 
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Bondurant

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Ownership surrounds themselves with yes men and has no idea what they're doing.
This is not true. Fords do not hire "yes men". William Clay was one of the most hands off owners in the NFL. He did not mettle and game GM's a long leash. The only known instance of meddling I am aware of is the 2002 draft. Fords problem is not "yes men" but staying the course for too long even when the course is clearly headed in the wrong direction.

Quinn came onboard after Martha hired Ernie Accorsi to help find a GM.
 

Bondurant

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The Fords problem is they don't know shit about football.
Which puts them on par with NFL ownership. This is why general managers and other front office personnel exist. Ironically, William Clay knew quite a bit about football (as did Matt Millen). That does not equate success. Ford's problem was being loyal to a fault and not holding people accountable. The 21 year tenure of Russ Thomas being a prime example. Alex Karras wrote of these shortcomings in '77.
 
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jkutswings

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This is not true. Fords do not hire "yes men". William Clay was one of the most hands off owners in the NFL. He did not mettle and game GM's a long leash. The only known instance of meddling I am aware of is the 2002 draft. Fords problem is not "yes men" but staying the course for too long even when the course is clearly headed in the wrong direction.

Quinn came onboard after Martha hired Ernie Accorsi to help find a GM.
I didn't mean to say that the Fords are another version of Jerry Jones, where the owner is also the de facto GM. I meant that there's nobody inside the ownship inner circle - the Ford Family themselves, or any of their close advisors - that has any knowledge of the game of football or any backbone to tell the Fords that they don't have a clue.

According to the Freep, it was the Commissioner of the NFL and the owner of the Carolina Panthers that suggested Accorsi:

Roger Goodell asked Ernie Accorsi to assist Lions

"Then, with the Lions looking for a GM after firing Martin Mayhew in November, NFL commissioner Roger Goodell and Panthers owner Jerry Richardson asked Accorsi to help the Detroit franchise. On Wednesday, Goodell said such a suggestion is “not unusual” because of the league’s desire to have all teams improve after an overhaul."

And before they brought in Quinn, the Lions hired Rod Wood as CEO (who played a role in bringing in Quinn, by the way). No previous football experience at any level, and a close friend of the Ford Family. Here are a few actual quotes from this wonderful CEO:

(during his very first press conference)
"I would probably say I'm not qualified to run any other NFL team, but I would say I'm qualified to run this one."

(upon Martha Ford taking over the team and hiring Quinn and Patricia)
"I think Mrs. Ford is a very different owner than her husband and has a lot less patience and a lot less tolerance for mediocrity, which is why we’ve made some of the changes that we've made," Wood said in video posted by Grand Rapids TV station Fox-17. "Certainly when I was hired and we had the opening for a general manager, I wanted to go to an organization and hire somebody who was used to winning and had come from an organization that doesn't know anything other than winning. That’s why we landed on Bob Quinn. And then after we decided to make a change with the head coach, we kind of went back and looked for the same kind of opportunity to add a coach who doesn't expect anything less than competing for the Super Bowl every year."

(and regarding the changes made going into the current NFL season)
"There is always change. Added a couple new coordinators and position coaches. We're into the third year now of Matt (Stafford) and Bob (Quinn) working together. There is some benefits from stability," Wood told WXYZ-TV in February. "Anything that keeps us moving in the right direction with the players more familiar with the coaching staff allows us to build a foundation that should keep us competitive year in and year out, that's the goal."

They think they're doing the right thing, but there's no knowledge base of the game itself (either on the field or from a business standpoint) when making these decisions. Anybody can talk them into anything because they don't know anything about running a football team, and they don't have anybody else around them who does.
 

BSHH

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I don't.

This is a franchise with exactly one playoff victory in the last 62 seasons (about to be 63). And with the deadly combination of ineptitude of ownership and a guaranteed continuation of profit, there's no path to change.

While I have no idea if the decisions will ultimately pan out, look how quickly Troy Weaver changed the entire landscape of the Pistons. There's a clear plan, and major changes happened immediately. You put a real front office in place, and a team can change their fortunes in just a few years.

Now contrast that with the Lions, who have hired guys like Matt Millen (who they ended up giving an extension to!) and Bob Quinn. Ownership surrounds themselves with yes men and has no idea what they're doing. But the fans keep watching and the revenue checks keep flying in.

When it comes to the NFL, I'm loyal to two things: watching the playoffs and running my fantasy football team. Neither of which usually have anything to do with the Lions.
Bob Quinn once acted like Troy Weaver and asked for change. He then replaced Caldwell with Patricia (and effectively moderate success with failure). The Fords let Quinn and Patricia act, but just like Bondurant I do think that the owners must "mettle" now.

Having Quinn replaced is the most important task. The Lions will have further early draft picks and should not waste these ones on rather expendable positions like CB, TE or RB again. Signing an able coaching staff and decent free agents will also be imperative.

Gruß,
BSHH
 

jkutswings

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Bob Quinn once acted like Troy Weaver and asked for change. He then replaced Caldwell with Patricia (and effectively moderate success with failure). The Fords let Quinn and Patricia act, but just like Bondurant I do think that the owners must "mettle" now.

Having Quinn replaced is the most important task. The Lions will have further early draft picks and should not waste these ones on rather expendable positions like CB, TE or RB again. Signing an able coaching staff and decent free agents will also be imperative.

Gruß,
BSHH
I agree with some of what you're saying, but I don't think it's fair to compare the hirings of Quinn and Weaver.

Quinn came in and axed Caldwell based on the premise that middle of the road wasn't good enough, and the franchise needed to take the next step with the existing pieces. Then he went and hired his buddy who ended up being clearly over his head.

Weaver came in to actually rebuild and immediately started burning it to the ground in hopes of eventually having the draft capital to land a superstar or two.

Both were changes, yes. But with very different understandings (or lack thereof) of where the team was in the competitive cycle.
 

newfy

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Yeah Quinn is responsible for this mess in the grand scheme of things, he needs to go and obviously Patricia with him. I fully supported (and still do) the firing of Caldwell. Those teams had a lot of talent but didnt win and there were a lot of coaching mistakes that were part of that. I like the analogy that Caldwell was their Murray/Demers, and the lions needed their Bowman to put them over the top to start winning playoff games and going on meaningful runs. Seriously, anyone who says they shouldnt have moved on from Caldwell, go look at how stacked that 2014 roster was and they didnt win a playoff game. They needed to move on to a coach that could push them over the top. That loss to Cincy was the cherry on top....

With that being said, Quinn knew Patricia better than anyone and the type of football he played. He shouldnt have chosen a coach that was going to have to completely overhaul the roster to fit his scheme. He should've found a coach that would make some tweaks but could work with the current make up of the roster because they were right on the cusp of being really, really good. Quinn gambled on his guy that hes friends with and it completely blew up in his face, including several really good players not wanting to play in Detroit anymore.

Time to poach someone from Seattle, Pittsburgh or Baltimore to run this thing, including a new coach and a fairly high pick this year to start turning things around. Might be Trey Lance/Justin Fields time in Detroit
 

jkutswings

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Quinn knew Patricia better than anyone and the type of football he played. He shouldnt have chosen a coach that was going to have to completely overhaul the roster to fit his scheme.
That's the part that indicts those two the most. Sure, have an idea(s) about the scheme you like, but if the personnel clearly doesn't fit, and you're continuing to get trucked, stop banging your head against the same wall and change things up.

And not only have they stubbornly continued this, "3 man rush, man coverage secondary" nonsense, but they keep doubling down on bad combinations, by signing free agents that don't fit the scheme either. For example, Tre Flowers might not be a Hall of Fame player, but he's decent and has proven to be successful when in the right situation. Yet they take that square peg and hammer him into a round hole - instead of giving him help up front to be a rover amongst a strong defensive line, rotating several guys around to keep teams guessing, he's the one adequate player on a group that nobody fears, so QBs can tee off for 350 yards a game.

It's like Patricia thinks it's still the NFL of the 1990's, and Quinn thinks he can make any player he signs magically fit into a different (and much worse) system than they've ever played in.
 
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MBH

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Interesting that fans and the media come out for blood for Lions coaches...
Blashill? Local media blocks for him.

In that way, the Detroit Lions get big league coverage in this town.
 

newfy

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Interesting that fans and the media come out for blood for Lions coaches...
Blashill? Local media blocks for him.

In that way, the Detroit Lions get big league coverage in this town.

I think its because those coaches have both had completely different circumstances and rebuilding in both leagues arent really comparable either
 
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jkutswings

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Interesting that fans and the media come out for blood for Lions coaches...
Blashill? Local media blocks for him.

In that way, the Detroit Lions get big league coverage in this town.
One has a GM and ownership with rings on their fingers. The other has a front office that's a ring around the commode.

I'm not a huge Blashill fan, but the Wings are a good franchise and will eventually right the ship, with or without him. The Lions? They make the Three Stooges look like brain surgeons.
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

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Interesting that fans and the media come out for blood for Lions coaches...
Blashill? Local media blocks for him.

In that way, the Detroit Lions get big league coverage in this town.

Local media doesn't care about hockey unless we're Stanley Cup favorites.
Local media cares very deeply about NFL football.

And local media isn't blocking for Jeff Blashill. They know that 90% of their readers couldn't possibly give a shit less who Jeff Blashill is.

I will say I don't really buy into the whole "media is good for asking 'hard questions' of coaches or demanding accountability." Sports markets like Toronto, Philadelphia, Boston, and New York piss me off more than anything. If you have a coach worth a shit, they're not gonna give the media anything to work with. Quick, give me your favorite Bill Belicheck analysis that he's shared with the media. Or Derek Jeter quote that wasn't sterilized and run through the media cleaners. I will never understand this weird obsession with being angry that Helene St. James asks softball questions or Max Bultman isn't digging into the decision of why Frans Nielsen wasn't bought out. A good organization doesn't listen to the media anyway, so why on Earth is it interesting to see acrimony in the press conference room? Frankly, I could do away with 90% of sports reporters... and not because they're "sycophants".
 
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RabidBadger

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Whatever, not going to engage and derail. Just glad some sports fans in this town have sportswriters who don't p***yfoot around.

Okay, I'll flog this dead horse a bit more. What exactly were your expectations of Blashill's teams with a dynamic #1 D pairing of Big Rig and Kronwall's corpse? Not to mention having a washed Z as your top scorer?

Blashill inherited a sinking ship whereas Quinn and Patricia were the iceberg that sank the Lions. I think you could make a valid pount if you have players who quit on Blash, ala Slay with Patricia or if Blash actually had a reasonable amount of talent to work with. IF this season is played and The Wings are still getting railed 5-1 with the changes made, and say, Hronek demands a trade because Blash told him to get off Malkin's schmeckel, then I'm all with ya. If the Wings trend up, not so much.
 
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Bench

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Okay, I'll flog this dead horse a bit more. What exactly were your expectations of Blashill's teams with a dynamic #1 D pairing of Big Rig and Kronwall's corpse? Not to mention having a washed Z as your top scorer?

Blashill inherited a sinking ship whereas Quinn and Patricia were the iceberg that sank the Lions. I think you could make a valid pount if you have players who quit on Blash, ala Slay with Patricia or if Blash actually had a reasonable amount of talent to work with. IF this season is played and The Wings are still getting railed 5-1 with the changes made, and say, Hronek demands a trade because Blash told him to get off Malkin's schmeckel, then I'm all with ya. If the Wings trend up, not so much.

It also ignores, perhaps due to ignorance, the vast difference in impact NHL coaches versus NFL coaches.

NFL coaching is widely considered tied with the QB for having the most influence on the game. Sometimes even more so.

There isn't a person alive that would trade any coach for Connor McDavid or Victor Hedman. Meanwhile, almost every football franchise would pick Belichick for their team over Brady.

Given Patricia has Matt Stafford under center, one of the better QBs in the entire NFL, and the team still fails to move the ball consistently... that's coaching. It would be like Blashill having access to Patrick Kane and still running a miserable powerplay. Alas, Blash doesn't have anyone near Kane's level. But Patricia does. At the most important spot in the entire game.
 

ricky0034

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Local media doesn't care about hockey unless we're Stanley Cup favorites.
Local media cares very deeply about NFL football.

And local media isn't blocking for Jeff Blashill. They know that 90% of their readers couldn't possibly give a shit less who Jeff Blashill is.

I will say I don't really buy into the whole "media is good for asking 'hard questions' of coaches or demanding accountability." Sports markets like Toronto, Philadelphia, Boston, and New York piss me off more than anything. If you have a coach worth a shit, they're not gonna give the media anything to work with. Quick, give me your favorite Bill Belicheck analysis that he's shared with the media. Or Derek Jeter quote that wasn't sterilized and run through the media cleaners. I will never understand this weird obsession with being angry that Helene St. James asks softball questions or Max Bultman isn't digging into the decision of why Frans Nielsen wasn't bought out. A good organization doesn't listen to the media anyway, so why on Earth is it interesting to see acrimony in the press conference room? Frankly, I could do away with 90% of sports reporters... and not because they're "sycophants".

Jeff Blashill took over a team that was more talented than it had been the year before(basically traded 30 games of Franzen for a full season of Larkin and Green) from a coach that from many accounts had essentially lost the room by then(Zetterberg etc were beyond fed up with him at the end of his time here)and managed to have them perform significantly worse(not only 7 less points but also went from a +14 goal differential to a -13 one)
 

Lil Sebastian Cossa

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Nah their problem is that they don't know that they don't know shit about football.

The Lions will never turn the corner as long as the Ford family continues to own the team.

No, that's not accurate.

WCF couldn't have cared any less about football.
Bill Ford Jr. may be the only guy who thought he knew football but didn't.
Martha went to the league to get their help in the search because they wanted to get a good guy. They provided Bob Quinn to her.
Sheila hasn't had the job long enough to make any call like that.

They don't know enough about football to know whether someone is selling them a yard of shit on what they can do.
 

Wingsfan 4 life

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Is anybody here even the slightest bit optimistic now that Patricia got shitcanned?



No? Same here.


Didn't even realize it was a combo firing. Maybe if I had any more f's to give over this shitstorm of an organization, I'd actually click the notification and read the whole thing.


Either or, IMO, just gonna be the same shit, different pile.
 
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