Player Discussion Micheal Ferland

Diversification

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Jun 21, 2019
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Ferland and Miller push other players down the depth chart. It allows those players to play on the 3rd and 4th line commensurate with their skillset (where they can absorb tough defensive minutes). Without getting into acquisition costs and cap concerns, these are good things for the team for this upcoming season. Maybe even good enough to make the playoffs this year. As a fan who isn't smart enough to predict whether that closes off our route to becoming a perennial cup contender, I'm okay with a playoff berth as a short term destination.
 

bbud

Registered User
Sep 10, 2008
10,289
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BC
I consider this years cup run as a fluke.

I can't agree with fluke I do think a team gets that far with both hard work and luck especially injury luck , in the Blues case they were expected to be a very competitive team that just didn't get going till 2nd half.
 

bossram

Registered User
Sep 25, 2013
15,324
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Victoria
How can you isolate that Josh Leivo is the possession driver? I have a hard time with that. He had 60% o zone starts and only 54% Corsi here last year....80% o zone starts with his two most common linemates, Pettersson and Boeser. Anything that happened in Toronto needs to be compared relatively, since the whole team is a possession juggernaut.

I also question anyone who thinks he can put up 10-12 goals with Beagle. He was on pace for 15 EV strength goals playing first line minutes last year.

HockeyViz's Isolated Impact and Evolving Wild's RAPM use regression to tease out individual player impact when controlling for other variables, like teammates, quality of competition, zone starts, etc.

That is where Leivo comes out massively ahead.
 

thekernel

Registered User
Apr 11, 2011
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I consider this years cup run as a fluke.
They just had one of the hardest Cup paths in like, decades. Every team they beat was a contender. I don't consider that a fluke; Binnington, sure, but he was rather average in the playoffs. They had a stacked top 6 and a huge, smart D corps. An actual fluke run would be LA in 2012. They were gifted a soft bracket from the day Duncan Keith elbowed Daniel.
 
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Askel

By the way Benning should be fired.
Apr 19, 2004
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Malmö/Vancouver
They also had nice depth. Sundkvist, Barbashev and Steen their 4th line had 38 goals combined during the regular season. They were a good team that were held back by Allens horrific goaltending.
 

bobbyb2009

Registered User
Sep 3, 2009
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Ferland and Miller push other players down the depth chart. It allows those players to play on the 3rd and 4th line commensurate with their skillset (where they can absorb tough defensive minutes). Without getting into acquisition costs and cap concerns, these are good things for the team for this upcoming season. Maybe even good enough to make the playoffs this year. As a fan who isn't smart enough to predict whether that closes off our route to becoming a perennial cup contender, I'm okay with a playoff berth as a short term destination.

I think this os a reasonable take. This signing (and Miller trade) certainly change the balance and makeup of the team... and we are better today because of it. I hope we are only enough better to keep having a shot at adding impact players in the draft for the next couple of years. But I think the team will be easier to watch this year- even if we are bleeding goals defensively.
 

Bleach Clean

Registered User
Aug 9, 2006
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no i dont.

the reason i mentioned st. louis is because by looking at the makeup of that team, it should be easy even for you to see that players can bring value to a team by providing more than just raw skill.

This is so basic... i dont know why im explaining it to you.

Here's another example. Lets compare two players from say the 1998/1999 season

Based on your mindset where skill is all that matters. you would prefer:

Cliff Ronning. 60 pts. lots of skill and little else in terms of intangibles

over a player like

Jere Lehtinen 52 points, Selke winner. Grit and suffocating two-way play. +29.


heres another example
Mike Peca. another Selke winner. 2001/2002 season. 25 goals. 60 pts. punishing open ice hitter with loads of grit, and the ability to get under his opponents skin. Some leadership qualities too.
..but based on your logic, you'd prefer a high skilled guy like Sergei Samsonov. 29 goals. 70 points. and nothing else other than that.

Last example: Naslund 03/04. 84 pts. vs Iginla 73 pts.

Theres more to a hockey player than his ability to put up points. If you dont see that by now then there is no point in conversing with you.


I think the premise of your post has merit, but the way in which you explain it does not. For example, Selke level players like Lehtinen and Peca affected shot differentials in a significant way. That means that they likely prevented more than 8 goals in goal differential for their respective teams. The net benefit far outweighed the singular advantage Ronning (how dare you question his intangibles ;)) or Samsonov would have provided.

It is the net advantage of the hitting, the grit, the leadership etc... that matters. It's not merely the existence of those traits. That's what I think your analysis is missing, and why I think people can readily, and rightly, question the value these secondary skill sets provide.

For Ferland, it didn't seem like a better option was available, so it's fine. For JT Miller, there was Nyquist...
 

Regal

Registered User
Mar 12, 2010
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Vancouver
They just had one of the hardest Cup paths in like, decades. Every team they beat was a contender. I don't consider that a fluke; Binnington, sure, but he was rather average in the playoffs. They had a stacked top 6 and a huge, smart D corps. An actual fluke run would be LA in 2012. They were gifted a soft bracket from the day Duncan Keith elbowed Daniel.

LA made the conference finals and then won the cup again the following two years.

Also, St. Louis had guys like Sammy Blais in the top 6 at points. It was good, but I wouldn't call it stacked
 

F A N

Registered User
Aug 12, 2005
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It is the net advantage of the hitting, the grit, the leadership etc... that matters. It's not merely the existence of those traits. That's what I think your analysis is missing, and why I think people can readily, and rightly, question the value these secondary skill sets provide.

That's a rather odd comment. If there is a net advantage to hitting, grit, leadership etc., why do you think that people rightly question the value that these secondary skill sets provide? I get your point about making a cogent enough argument to "help us understand," but we're not in debate club or philosophy class. We're not in front of a judge with some novel case where are arguments are the key to the decision. What's important is getting to the truth of the matter.

I was listening to Luke Fox's interview on 650 and he was talking about the coach's conference. He made this point about basically all the high level coaches, managers etc. talk about these importance of these "secondary skill sets." This is nothing new of course, but the interesting part he found was that they were able to show how these traits had a positive impact through video etc.

For Ferland, it didn't seem like a better option was available, so it's fine. For JT Miller, there was Nyquist...

I think that had Luongo not retired the Canucks would have likely traded for Miller and signed Nyquist. This make sense given the Ferland signing. The difference between Nyquist's contract and Ferland's was basically the effect of the recapture penalty.
 

PuckMunchkin

Very Nice, Very Evil!
Dec 13, 2006
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They just had one of the hardest Cup paths in like, decades. Every team they beat was a contender. I don't consider that a fluke; Binnington, sure, but he was rather average in the playoffs. They had a stacked top 6 and a huge, smart D corps. An actual fluke run would be LA in 2012. They were gifted a soft bracket from the day Duncan Keith elbowed Daniel.

I dont think its a team that is well built for the current NHL.

Not a popular opinion but NHL is a league where the best team wins maybe 55-60% of the time.
And in most of their matchups they werent the better team. Anyone looking to copy their "model" is insane. Todays league is moving away from big slow heavy suffocating hockey.
 

bandwagonesque

I eat Kraft Dinner and I vote
Mar 5, 2014
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I dont think its a team that is well built for the current NHL.

Not a popular opinion but NHL is a league where the best team wins maybe 55-60% of the time.
And in most of their matchups they werent the better team. Anyone looking to copy their "model" is insane. Todays league is moving away from big slow heavy suffocating hockey.
They were the 2nd best team in the league over the last half of the season then went 16-10 in the playoffs to win the Stanley Cup. That's a obviously not a fluke. I don't think anyone is really advocating copying their model and both of the forwards the Canucks acquired this offseason are fast, young and fairly skilled.
 

Josepho

i want the bartkowski thread back
Jan 1, 2015
14,762
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British Columbia
Not fond of the e before the a in Micheal. Not fond of the fact that I didn't notice this until just now.

I have a rule where if the Canucks win a cup before my first hypothetical child I'm going to give them the exact name of whoever scores the cup winning goal but I might make an exception with this one.

Unique spellings are ass.
 
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F A N

Registered User
Aug 12, 2005
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I have a rule where if the Canucks win a cup before my first hypothetical child I'm going to give them the exact name of whoever scores the cup winning goal but I might make an exception with this one.

Unique spellings are ass.

I'm rooting for Brogan or Sven in your case.
 

Burke's Evil Spirit

Registered User
Oct 29, 2002
21,372
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I have a rule where if the Canucks win a cup before my first hypothetical child I'm going to give them the exact name of whoever scores the cup winning goal but I might make an exception with this one.

Unique spellings are ass.

FWIW, it's not a unique spelling of Michael, they're different names. One is Irish/Gaelic, the other is Hebrew.
 
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MS

1%er
Mar 18, 2002
53,362
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Vancouver, BC
I have a rule where if the Canucks win a cup before my first hypothetical child I'm going to give them the exact name of whoever scores the cup winning goal but I might make an exception with this one.

Unique spellings are ass.

What dumb parents are thinking - "By spelling my kid's name Kiel instead of Kyle we're totally showing how trendy and unique we are!"

What dumb parents are actually saying - "We're selfish idiots who screwed our kid over with a name that will be misspelled every single day of his life and result in multiple inconveniences for them, all so we feel like special clever snowflakes who invented a unique name!"
 

Wo Yorfat

dumb person
Nov 7, 2016
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What dumb parents are thinking - "By spelling my kid's name Kiel instead of Kyle we're totally showing how trendy and unique we are!"

What dumb parents are actually saying - "We're selfish idiots who screwed our kid over with a name that will be misspelled every single day of his life and result in multiple inconveniences for them, all so we feel like special clever snowflakes who invented a unique name!"

The best part is when they mention the spelling unprompted. "Yeah, we named him Jake but it's spelled J-A-Y-K-E" Uh ok, I wasn't planning on writing the lil fellas' name.
 

F A N

Registered User
Aug 12, 2005
18,626
5,890
What dumb parents are thinking - "By spelling my kid's name Kiel instead of Kyle we're totally showing how trendy and unique we are!"

What dumb parents are actually saying - "We're selfish idiots who screwed our kid over with a name that will be misspelled every single day of his life and result in multiple inconveniences for them, all so we feel like special clever snowflakes who invented a unique name!"

Seems like you speak from experience. :D M stands for Miceal?
 

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