Recalled/Assigned: Mete recalled, Juulsen assigned to Laval

[417]

Gourde, Erne, Paquette, Cirelli, Cernak, Joseph.... Marchesseault back then....

Gourde was never really a dominant AHL player, he had some good seasons, nothing outstanding and he kicked around the AHL/ECHL for years before he broke through last year (but he's come back down to earth somewhat this year). He's got some great talent around him, not sure he has the same breakout on another team.

Erne, Paquette, Cirelli, Cernak these are all depth players...so I wasn't referring to these types of players really, more the high end ones.

Joseph I really like but even he only played 70 AHL games.

 

[1909]

Gourde was never really a dominant AHL player, he had some good seasons, nothing outstanding and he kicked around the AHL/ECHL for years before he broke through last year (but he's come back down to earth somewhat this year). He's got some great talent around him, not sure he has the same breakout on another team.

Erne, Paquette, Cirelli, Cernak these are all depth players...so I wasn't referring to these types of players really, more the high end ones.

Joseph I really like but even he only played 70 AHL games.

70 games is something note worthy. How many games did Scherbak played at AHL level ?

 

[417]

70 games is something note worthy. How many games did Scherbak played at AHL level ?

He's played 150 AHL games...

 

[Cenzo_]

Since being sent down December 17th, Juulsen has only played 3 games in the AHL and none in 2019. What is his status, is he injured or is Laval messing up another prospect?

 

[CauZuki]

Since being sent down December 17th, Juulsen has only played 3 games in the AHL and none in 2019. What is his status, is he injured or is Laval messing up another prospect?

Upper body injury.

 

[Scriptor]

Upper body injury.

Any time line for his return?

 

[CauZuki]

Any time line for his return?

I havn't heard anything more they are being hush hush about it apparently...

 

[montreal]

He'll never be a dominant player...not in the NHL not in the AHL.

That's not the kind of player he is.

Furthermore, I know this "dominate the AHL" has become somewhat of a catchphrase.

But players who usually dominate the AHL, are players who aren't good enough for the NHL.

Top 10 AHL scorers as of today

Daniel Carr
Carter Verhaeghe
Peter Holland
Brandon Pirri
Andrew Poturalski
Cory Conacher
Chris Mueller
Chris Terry
Greg Carey
Jeremy Bracco

There isn't a big time prospect in this list, these are all AHL veterans because for the most part, the AHL is actually not a league full of top prospects who are developing for their respective teams, it's mostly a league made up of NHL/AHL veterans who aren't good enough to stick in the NHL...dominating the AHL doesn't really mean anything.

I don't really know what Mete will be, but he's got to score some goals here and there if he's going to be on the top pairing.

That said no one should expect a prospect to come in at 20 and be a top 10 scorer in the AHL. Now dominating is going to vary by definition and for me what I always push for is not to rush said prospects until they show they are ready for a call up. Instead the Habs seem to call them up once they start putting up some offense, DLR, McCarron, etc... But then in the NHL they don't put them in good positions to succeed and then it's only a matter of time before they are in the press box and then back in the AHL to start all over again.

None of us can know what's the right way to develop talent, we can only see what's worked and what hasn't but even then we aren't there at practice, we don't know what's been said to who and what they were told to work on or what kind of people they are as anyone that played any organized hockey at say at a certain age maybe the teenage years, that you are going to have those teammates some that are just so skilled but don't want to work hard or others that aren't so skilled but give it all every time they step on the ice. So it's hard for us to have a clue about the character of said prospects to know what they are willing to do to overcome failure or disappointments.

That said I loved how they handled Subban, he dominated the AHL at 20. Then again so did Leblanc, although I will always wonder if things could have at least gone a little better if they didn't rush him to the NHL at 20 and then hired a head coach for Hamilton that had a lot of experience as a head coach. But clearly there's more to it, as Hudon is another example, he killed it his rookie year, he started out the first month or two in the top 5 in league scoring which is just unheard of for 20 year old rookies at least for Hab prospects. He wasn't on a very good team and with his lack of size/strength he was going to have a very hard time keeping up that pace and he didn't. He still was 2nd in the league in scoring for rookies I believe. Evans is up there this year in rookie scoring, he's injured now but I'm hoping they leave him down all year to work on the physical tools (strength, speed, skating).

So there is no do this and you make the NHL and of course it's going to differ for each person but my point is that we haven't seem to had much success with how we have been rushing these kids in the past 6 years, so why not change the approach and take more caution? I think a lot less harm can come from caution vs rushing.

I'm not saying it never happens...it does.

I'm just saying I think there's a distorted view of what the AHL represents.

It's not the developmental breeding ground that I often see it portrayed as.

As a huge AHL fan, it's the league I watch the most of, I can very safely say that it is most certainly a developmental breeding ground. There's a reason why so many of today's NHLers have gone through the AHL. Of course you are going to have your mix of bubble players, guys like Terry, Chaput, Agostino, Carr, guys that can be top scorers in the AHL but lack something to be good NHLers, you are going to have your plugs, guys that the AHL is the highest they will ever go and in a few years are in the NLA, KHL, etc.. And then you have your prospects of which most likely won't turn into top 6 forwards/top 4 D's. Of course when you have your Crosby's, McDavid's, etc.. they will go directly to the NHL because their skill level is off the charts. But I'm still all for sending our prospects through the AHL especially now that we have a coach who seems to be doing a solid job.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I don't give a **** at this point. Goddamn GM is so useless.

God damn owner is self-centered. Wants to sell sell sell... gimme gimme gimme, with a grand illusion of smoke and mirrors to get the sheep to buy the narrative... anything can happen. Hope for the best, plan for the profit.

 

[417]

I don't really know what Mete will be, but he's got to score some goals here and there if he's going to be on the top pairing.

That said no one should expect a prospect to come in at 20 and be a top 10 scorer in the AHL. Now dominating is going to vary by definition and for me what I always push for is not to rush said prospects until they show they are ready for a call up. Instead the Habs seem to call them up once they start putting up some offense, DLR, McCarron, etc... But then in the NHL they don't put them in good positions to succeed and then it's only a matter of time before they are in the press box and then back in the AHL to start all over again.

Agreed - but I think that's a league-wide trend.

With the salary cap, every team wants to take advantage of young players on ELC's who can contribute to their lineup.

But the key part of what you wrote is when you talk about how the Habs don't put these players in positions to succeed when they do recall them.

That I agree with 100%

That said I loved how they handled Subban, he dominated the AHL at 20. Then again so did Leblanc, although I will always wonder if things could have at least gone a little better if they didn't rush him to the NHL at 20 and then hired a head coach for Hamilton that had a lot of experience as a head coach. But clearly there's more to it, as Hudon is another example, he killed it his rookie year, he started out the first month or two in the top 5 in league scoring which is just unheard of for 20 year old rookies at least for Hab prospects. He wasn't on a very good team and with his lack of size/strength he was going to have a very hard time keeping up that pace and he didn't. He still was 2nd in the league in scoring for rookies I believe. Evans is up there this year in rookie scoring, he's injured now but I'm hoping they leave him down all year to work on the physical tools (strength, speed, skating).

So there is no do this and you make the NHL and of course it's going to differ for each person but my point is that we haven't seem to had much success with how we have been rushing these kids in the past 6 years, so why not change the approach and take more caution? I think a lot less harm can come from caution vs rushing.

Agreed with this - but when it comes to Subban, I think the AHL was a waste of time for him, he could have played in the NHL as a 20yr old and did just fine. I don't think the AHL "helped" him become the player he became, he was always destined to be there.

As a huge AHL fan, it's the league I watch the most of, I can very safely say that it is most certainly a developmental breeding ground. There's a reason why so many of today's NHLers have gone through the AHL. Of course you are going to have your mix of bubble players, guys like Terry, Chaput, Agostino, Carr, guys that can be top scorers in the AHL but lack something to be good NHLers, you are going to have your plugs, guys that the AHL is the highest they will ever go and in a few years are in the NLA, KHL, etc.. And then you have your prospects of which most likely won't turn into top 6 forwards/top 4 D's. Of course when you have your Crosby's, McDavid's, etc.. they will go directly to the NHL because their skill level is off the charts. But I'm still all for sending our prospects through the AHL especially now that we have a coach who seems to be doing a solid job.

Sure I understand this...but when I see a player play 4yrs of major junior hockey or 4yrs of NCAA, then spend 50 games in the AHL before he graduates to the NHL.

I question just how much they developed in the AHL.

Tomas Plekanec is a good example of a player who benefited from AHL development...he played 233 AHL games before graduating.

PK Subban is not a good example, IMO, of a player who benefited from AHL development...he played 77 AHL games and like I said earlier, I don't really think he needed those games to be honest, he could have played half of them and been just fine IMO.

 

[montreal]

Sure I understand this...but when I see a player play 4yrs of major junior hockey or 4yrs of NCAA, then spend 50 games in the AHL before he graduates to the NHL.

I question just how much they developed in the AHL.

Tomas Plekanec is a good example of a player who benefited from AHL development...he played 233 AHL games before graduating.

PK Subban is not a good example, IMO, of a player who benefited from AHL development...he played 77 AHL games and like I said earlier, I don't really think he needed those games to be honest, he could have played half of them and been just fine IMO.

We can never know if playing in the AHL helped Subban, but we can know that at least the last number I saw was over 80% of all NHLers had played in the AHL (but I think that was a few years ago when I saw that stat) I know that Subban had a lot of good things to say about his time with Guy Boucher and I know that I learned a lot just listening to his pre/post game interviews. That said we can only guess what helped him or not.

For NCAA players the AHL is usually needed to help them adjust to the long grinding schedule since they only play around 30-40 games a year and Ivy league schools even less. On top of that they mostly play just on the weekends so many need to learn what to do so they don't hit that wall mid to late in the season.

 

[Runner77]

I don't really know what Mete will be, but he's got to score some goals here and there if he's going to be on the top pairing.

....

Only time Mete has shown a true scoring ability were his 15 goals in 50 games on his last season with the London Knights.

Who knows if he's going to replicate that one day. Even if he never does, would it not be more reasonable to set his ceiling as a 2nd pairing D?

He's already a success on the basis of where he was drafted.

 

[417]

We can never know if playing in the AHL helped Subban, but we can know that at least the last number I saw was over 80% of all NHLers had played in the AHL (but I think that was a few years ago when I saw that stat) I know that Subban had a lot of good things to say about his time with Guy Boucher and I know that I learned a lot just listening to his pre/post game interviews. That said we can only guess what helped him or not.

How many of these 80% played significant games in the AHL?

Brendan Gallagher for example played 35 games under Sly...is anyone here ready to give Sly credit his development?

So IMO, that 80% number is a bit skewed.

For NCAA players the AHL is usually needed to help them adjust to the long grinding schedule since they only play around 30-40 games a year and Ivy league schools even less. On top of that they mostly play just on the weekends so many need to learn what to do so they don't hit that wall mid to late in the season.

Which stands to reason that the bulk of their development probably occurred during their years playing in the NCAA.

Not trying to discredit the AHL, I know you watch a ton of it so you're more informed on it then I...I'm just naturally inclined to question things and when people call the AHL a developmental league and the NHL NOT a developmental league.

I'm not quite sure that really accurate

 

[montreal]

Only time Mete has shown a true scoring ability were his 15 goals in 50 games on his last season with the London Knights.

Who knows if he's going to replicate that one day. Even if he never does, would it not be more reasonable to set his ceiling as a 2nd pairing D?

He's already a success on the basis of where he was drafted. Would it not be more reasonable to set his ceiling as a 2nd pairing D?

it's hard to say since he's still so young and was rushed to the NHL, what impact that has on him vs had he played in the OHL last year and a full year in Laval this season. Perhaps on a contending team he's more of a 2nd pairing, unless he can find a way to produce more offense. Now we had low scoring top pairing D's in the past when we had Komi playing with Markov, and if I'm totally honest when I look at this Habs team I would not have expected them to be this good at all, I thought they were more of a 9th to 12th place team now it's looking more like a 14th-18th and I'm not sure how they are doing it. I have been busy with work so I haven't been watching them play since before the WJC's, it sounds like Price is back and that Mete is playing much better since his call up.

That said it's hard to think of a top team, or a team going far in the playoffs with a defensemen on their top pairing that doesn't have 1 goal. Maybe there are examples from the past and it seems to be working out well enough so far since they look like they have a strong chance of making the playoffs.

 

[montreal]

How many of these 80% played significant games in the AHL?

Brendan Gallagher for example played 35 games under Sly...is anyone here ready to give Sly credit his development?

So IMO, that 80% number is a bit skewed.


Which stands to reason that the bulk of their development probably occurred during their years playing in the NCAA.

Not trying to discredit the AHL, I know you watch a ton of it so you're more informed on it then I...I'm just naturally inclined to question things and when people call the AHL a developmental league and the NHL NOT a developmental league.

I'm not quite sure that really accurate

Then it gets into what is a significant amount, I have always said that I doubt Gallagher learned all that much from Lefebvre in half a season especially since he had back to back to back 40+ goal seasons in the dub and was always a hard worker so it's not like his game changed any from the AHL. But we also can't know what impact any coach has on these kids and at what point playing however many games impacts them. I always said I loved to listen to Boucher talk hockey and I hated to listen to Lefebvre, so far I haven't listened too much to Bouchard but have liked what i've heard. But what does that mean for the players, I can't know.

I fully consider the AHL a development league and the NHL not a development league. Of course players will develop in the NHL, but that for me the AHL is designed to be a development league and the NHL is not per say. If you are a bottom barrel team in the NHL, then you should be focused on development then. If you are a contending team, then winning should be the only focus imo.

To me if you can't do it in the AHL, chances are good you won't be able to do it in the NHL, that's why I like to see the kids go through the AHL to show what they can do but give them a full season to learn and grow in a much less pressure fueled environment outside of the McDavid's of course. But in the end we can only speculate as to what is better for each prospect, clearly the NHL looks to the AHL as a development league or you wouldn't have 80% of the players appearing in any AHL games, it would be much lower logically imo.

 

[1909]

Upper body injury.

Concussion ?

 

[417]

Then it gets into what is a significant amount, I have always said that I doubt Gallagher learned all that much from Lefebvre in half a season especially since he had back to back to back 40+ goal seasons in the dub and was always a hard worker so it's not like his game changed any from the AHL. But we also can't know what impact any coach has on these kids and at what point playing however many games impacts them. I always said I loved to listen to Boucher talk hockey and I hated to listen to Lefebvre, so far I haven't listened too much to Bouchard but have liked what i've heard. But what does that mean for the players, I can't know.

Not just Gallagher - for anyone really.

How much can one learn/develop in half a season in the AHL?

Is it not safe to say that when they graduate, that there's also some development and more significant development IN the NHL?

But fair point - there's no way of really knowing.

I fully consider the AHL a development league and the NHL not a development league. Of course players will develop in the NHL, but that for me the AHL is designed to be a development league and the NHL is not per say. If you are a bottom barrel team in the NHL, then you should be focused on development then. If you are a contending team, then winning should be the only focus imo.

I'm not sure how true that is today.

To me if you can't do it in the AHL, chances are good you won't be able to do it in the NHL, that's why I like to see the kids go through the AHL to show what they can do but give them a full season to learn and grow in a much less pressure fueled environment outside of the McDavid's of course. But in the end we can only speculate as to what is better for each prospect, clearly the NHL looks to the AHL as a development league or you wouldn't have 80% of the players appearing in any AHL games, it would be much lower logically imo.

A lot of times its a roster squeeze issue...teams will send a player who doesn't have to go through waivers to the AHL because they don't have room for him on the NHL roster, in fact, I'd suggest this happens quite often.

That's what IMO, makes that 80% number skewed...you have to drill down deeper.

How many of those 80% were situations just like Brendan Gallagher?

 

[1909]

Not just Gallagher - for anyone really.

How much can one learn/develop in half a season in the AHL?

Is it not safe to say that when they graduate, that there's also some development and more significant development IN the NHL?

But fair point - there's no way of really knowing.


I'm not sure how true that is today.


A lot of times its a roster squeeze issue...teams will send a player who doesn't have to go through waivers to the AHL because they don't have room for him on the NHL roster, in fact, I'd suggest this happens quite often.

That's what IMO, makes that 80% number skewed...you have to drill down deeper.

How many of those 80% were situations just like Brendan Gallagher?

So why bother having affiliate teams at AHL level, then ?

 

[417]

So why bother having affiliate teams at AHL level, then ?

You're missing the point...

I never said AHL affiliates are useless...if I did, your post would be relevant.

But again, I never said that.

What I said was that I question just how much AHL affiliates are developmental breeding grounds for NHL teams.

 

[CauZuki]

You're missing the point...

I never said AHL affiliates are useless...if I did, your post would be relevant.

But again, I never said that.

What I said was that I question just how much AHL affiliates are developmental breeding grounds for NHL teams.

It really depends which prospects you have , I think lately with the wave of prospects coming into this league straight from another mens league (KHL ,Liiga) or even the American program has led to bypassing the need for the AHL for many of the high end prospects. Especially in the cap era , teams are bringing up their ELC kids at a much quicker rate as they are cost controlled and can be developped on the go in the NHL. Especially for teams that can afford to live with their prospects inevitable mistakes.

All this to say the AHL is far from useless but many other development streams have proven themselves effective and in the end, talent and attitude matter far more than anything else.

 

[LaP]

Upper body injury.

My gosh i thought it was 200% impossible to injure yourself in the AHL. Anyway that's what i read here.

 

[Scriptor]

Agreed - but I think that's a league-wide trend.

With the salary cap, every team wants to take advantage of young players on ELC's who can contribute to their lineup.

But the key part of what you wrote is when you talk about how the Habs don't put these players in positions to succeed when they do recall them.

That I agree with 100%


Agreed with this - but when it comes to Subban, I think the AHL was a waste of time for him, he could have played in the NHL as a 20yr old and did just fine. I don't think the AHL "helped" him become the player he became, he was always destined to be there.



Sure I understand this...but when I see a player play 4yrs of major junior hockey or 4yrs of NCAA, then spend 50 games in the AHL before he graduates to the NHL.

I question just how much they developed in the AHL.

Tomas Plekanec is a good example of a player who benefited from AHL development...he played 233 AHL games before graduating.

PK Subban is not a good example, IMO, of a player who benefited from AHL development...he played 77 AHL games and like I said earlier, I don't really think he needed those games to be honest, he could have played half of them and been just fine IMO.

Or he could have gone straight to the NHL and seen his head grow to four times its size.

 

[417]

Or he could have gone straight to the NHL and seen his head grow to four times its size.

So you think the AHL humbled him? lol

This is PK Subban we're talking about?

77 games in Hamilton did not change PK Subban one bit, no one will change him...not even the personality-killing hockey fans/media/coaches/executives could do that.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Only time Mete has shown a true scoring ability were his 15 goals in 50 games on his last season with the London Knights.

Who knows if he's going to replicate that one day. Even if he never does, would it not be more reasonable to set his ceiling as a 2nd pairing D?

He's already a success on the basis of where he was drafted.

I think it would just be reasonable to let him continue to develop and see where he goes?

I don't expect him to be a first pairing D, but I don't forego the possibility entirely either.

To me, it's always about what's going on between a player's ears. That's why development is so unpredictable, because the human mind can be very unpredictable, especially when it comes to development.

What I saw was a very young player who was overwhelmed but still managed to look not too bad, and from what I could see, it was due to very good skating and good basic read of the play. Now, that last part to me is important. If his play reading was already quick enough to actually play in the NHL, there's a good chance that with time, this play reading will become more acute. Now, where will that bring him is anybody's guess, but I wouldn't discount him learning to read the play better than most defenders which would make him a flawed first pairing D similar to Rafalski.

 

[1909]

You're missing the point...

I never said AHL affiliates are useless...if I did, your post would be relevant.

But again, I never said that.

What I said was that I question just how much AHL affiliates are developmental breeding grounds for NHL teams.

If NHL teams cannot develop players at AHL level, why waste money on that at all ? Just to have a bank of generic players in case of injuries ? Why not do it the NFL (football) way ! No farm clubs.

Nowadays, most NHL teams want to win, and win fast. They don't have much time to teach-develop players at NHL level. Habs badly wanted to send down DLR and Scherbak for further development to AHL but lost them on waivers because of the actual rules. Look at Pittsburg who were able to develop many players on their AHL farm team.

Of course, players are arriving at NHL level younger than before. look at the actual NHL. Way faster and quicker. But also more goals allowed. Worst defensive coverage.