You’re significantly underrating Messier’s performance during his time with Gretzky. Just because Messier played on the same team, it doesn’t mean that he wasn’t an elite player in his own right. Here are some quotes to support my position:
- A 1983 Sports Illustrated article declares that Messier "is, quite simply, the best left wing in the NHL". This supports my argument that, even without Gretzky, Messier would likely have been a year-end all-star very early in his career. The article also clearly states that (although he still hasn't reached his prime yet) a young Messier would "be the No. 1 star on most teams".
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1120551/1/index.htm
- In 1983, Messier "did a superb job of shutting down Islander star Bryan Trottier in the Cup finals". Evidence that even very early in his career, Messier was a good defensive player.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1122708/3/index.htm
- In 1987, Messier is “one of the NHL's five best playersâ€. More evidence that Messier was a complete player before Gretzky was traded: “You have to go back to Gordie Howe to find someone who can dominate every aspect of a game—puckhandling, checking, skating—the way Mark canâ€.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1067299/index.htm
- Messier faced Gretzky in the 1989 playoffs and outshone his former captain: “With due respect to Gretzky, Messier was the series' most dominant player through four games. On every shift, it seemed, the muscular center set up a scoring opportunity by making a slick pass or by drilling either a shot or a King. Sometimes he did all three.â€
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1068284/index.htm
I can spend time looking for more articles but this should suffice; it shows that, even while Gretzky’s teammate (and in the season immediately after losing him), Messier was regarded as an elite, complete player.
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None of your points contradict my position. Messier scored more without Gretzky (even though league scoring was dropping and his team was getting worse). The decline is especially noticeable on the powerplay. The decrease in Messier's playoff production post-Gretzky is small, despite a very long playoff career and a massive decrease in leaguewide GPG.
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A 1990 poll of players named Messier the best all-around player in the league, the 2nd toughest to defend against (behind Gretzky), the #3 player to start a franchise with (behind Gretzky and Lemieux).
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AAAAIBAJ&pg=5762,1654607&dq=mike+ramsey&hl=en. I know that a lot of people like to ignore the 1990 Hart voting results, but this is independent evidence (in the sense that it's from the players, not the media who votes for the Hart) that Messier was highly respected. For a complete player like Messier, it's hard to imagine a better accolade than being named the league’s best all-around player by your peers.
It's inaccurate to call Messier "offense-first". He was a complete player from early in his career, as demonstrated by the quotes above (shutting down Trottier in the playoffs, being compared to Howe).
Yes, Yzerman eventually turned into a great defensive forward (better than Messier ever was). A number of reasons for that - the league was becoming more defensive in general, the Wings have other scoring threats aside from #19, and of course Bowman molded Yzerman into a different kind of player. Yzerman deserves full credit for becoming an elite defensive player in the mid-nineties and, as I've said, he has a higher peak as a defensive player than Messier. That being said - I’ve presented a lot of evidence that Messier was a complete two-way player early in his career (though not an elite, Selke caliber forward either) and it's important to recognize that this helps offset Yzerman's offensive advantage. As you suggested, if we look only at 1988 to 1993 (which is them most favourable possible comparison as it includes Yzerman's six best seasons while it excludes several of Messier's), Yzerman outscored Messier by 15% per game. Part of that difference is offset by Messier's superior two-way game at that stage in their career - I'd probably take Yzerman in a prime vs prime comparison, but it's close.
To justify my assumption that Yzerman was not a great defensive player early in his career:
1. I have a 1990 players poll (referenced above), right in the middle of Yzerman's prime. This is the one where Messier was named the league's best all-around player by 64 players, more than half of those responding. Yzerman got 4 votes.
2. I have the results of a 1993 coaches' poll (
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=21786884&postcount=4). Coaches were asked to name the best defensive forward and best penalty killer. Yzerman didn't receive any votes.
3. I have the results of a 1994 coaches' poll (
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=21786910&postcount=5). Coaches were asked to name the best defensive forward and best penalty killer. Yzerman didn't receive any votes.
4. I have the result of another poll from 1994 (
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=32763145&postcount=21). Once again, Yzerman didn't get any votes in the best defensive forward or best penalty killer categories. In case you were curious, Bryan Trottier (who was in fact a complete two-way player even during his offensive prime, certainly more so than Messier) placed in the top five in the best defensive forward category in a similar poll from 1984 (
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=21073305&postcount=1).
5. I have a glowing article that justifiably called Yzerman the 3rd best player in the league in 1989. It’s a long, gushing article but they don’t say anything about his defensive play. If he was really a great defensive player during his offensive prime, I think they would have wrote at least one sentence in a 1,500 word article about that aspect of his game.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1126637/1/index.htm
6. Yzerman received virtually no votes for the Selke trophy prior to 1996. By my count, he got 2 first place votes (one each in 1988 and 1989) and 2 second place votes (one each in 1989 and 1993). In comparison, Messier got 6 first place votes (three in 1992, two in 1987 and one in 1990), 4 second place votes (one in 1986, two in 1988 and one in 1990) and 2 third place votes (one each in 1984 and 1986). Prior to 1996, Yzerman (2-2-0) earned roughly the same number of Selke votes as Michel Goulet (2-1-1)
7. I know that Yzerman said in 1997 that "I always considered myself a decent two-way player"
http://articles.nydailynews.com/199...rman-john-leclair-flyers-captain-eric-lindros. I'll agree that Yzerman was decent defensively early in his career, but in comparison to Messier, who I've already proven was well above "decent" in terms of two-way play, I don't think that helps Yzerman's case very much.
I realize that none of this evidence, on its own, necessarily shows that pre-Bowman Yzerman wasn’t great defensively, but collectively the evidence I’ve presented clearly shows that Messier was regarded as a more complete and better defensive player, much earlier in his career.
Like I said before, I try to debate honestly, so here’s an article with a quote from Trottier that says that Yzerman was good defensively -
http://m.espn.go.com/wireless/story?storyId=8147906&wjb. But I don’t think it outweighs all the other evidence I've presented.
Yzerman is a great player and it was a privilege to watch him, but there isn’t a strong case for ranking him above Messier. To summarize this and my previous post, Messier was regarded as one of the best and most complete players in the league even while playing in Gretzky’s shadows. He posted his two best seasons statistically (adjusted) and won two Hart trophies within the first three full seasons of playing apart from TGO. There are only perhaps two dozen players in history who can match Messier’s peak (two Harts and runner-up to Lemieux for a third), incredible playoff portfolio, exceptional longevity and physical presence/complete game - and as great as he is, Yzerman isn’t one of those players.