Messier Vs Yzerman

[FakeKidPoker*]

Better Career

In a debate that began in in a Jaromir Jagr thread of all places it turned into Messier Vs Yzerman.

To me it isn't close.. Messier without much of a thought.. I've often thought Messier overtime has really become well overrated on this board (On the general anyway.. don't spend as much time on history but can't imagine it being much different.)

I could only see Yzerman winning this due to it becoming a popularity thing and people seeing Yzerman as more of a "nice guy"..hope it doesn't but whatever.

Top 70 of all time of all time as of 2009.

Messier was voted 22nd.
Yzerman 36th.

Here are the Numbers and Awards.

Mark Messier.

Regular Season: 1756 games. 694 goals, 1193 assists, 1887 points
Playoffs: 236 games. 109 goals, 186 assists, 295 points.

Awards.

Stanley Cups: 6
Conn Smythe: 1
Hart Trophy: 2
Pearson: 2

Steve Yzerman.

Regular Season: 1514 games, 692 goals, 1063 assists, 1755 points
Playoffs: 196 games. 70 goals, 115 assists, 185 points.

Awards.

Stanley Cups: 3
Conn Smythe: 1
Hart Trophy: 0
Pearson: 1
Selke: 1

Click to read more...

 

[FakeKidPoker*]

I guess the only argument that can be made for Yzerman is the regular season numbers.. but had Yzerman played as long as Messier they'd have taken big hit as well.

But then you look at playoff numbers and Messier just destroys Yzerman there who isn't even a PPG.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I guess the only argument that can be made for Yzerman is the regular season numbers.. but had Yzerman played as long as Messier they'd have taken big hit as well.

But then you look at playoff numbers and Messier just destroys Yzerman there who isn't even a PPG.

I voted Messier too, but I think the playoff argument underrates Yzerman. The Red Wings were not a good team to play for to rack up high playoff PPG numbers - when the Red Wings were a good team that advanced far in the playoffs, they rolled all 4 lines and expected their centers to play fairly defensively. Even Fedorov, IMO one of the best playoff performers of all time, was under a PPG in the playoffs.

That said, we're comparing him to Messier, and when Messer is so far ahead of 3rd all time in the playoffs in points, it's kind of a big deal.

 

[Machinehead]

Messier pretty easily for me. 6 Cup Rings and 2nd all time in points.

And yes Jagr likely would have passed him if not for certain factors as we've been discussing, but be that as it may, Messier is still 2nd all-time in points for a guy that brought so much else besides points in terms of grit and leadership.

I think all things considered Messier is top 10 all-time. I wouldn't say the same for Yzerman.

 

[Sens Rule]

I can remember around 1987 and 1988 it being talked about that Messier was the best mortal player in the world... (Except 99 and 66). Then Yzerman took that crown from him among many for a year when he got 155 points... Then Messier won the Hart the next season.

Messier was the better overall player and had the better career in my opinion. Yzerman was more of an offensive force though in his prime of 5 or 6 seasons.

 

[seventieslord]

Messier. Easily.

 

[Big Phil]

I generally consider Messier to be somewhere inside the top 20. There was so much to like about Messier. He could beat you in so many ways. He would elbow you, score against you, or just............even stare at you. There wasn't a weakness in his game and there wasn't anything people said he couldn't do well. I guess we never saw Messier unload a slap shot very often if we really want to nitpick, but who cares?

Yzerman is an all-time great but he is being compared to someone better, simply put. I think all that Yzerman might have going for him is that once 1997 hit it was la-la land for Messier while Yzerman still did some serious damage after that (although he was 4 years younger). Yzerman was a key member of the 2002 Olympic team and at the exact same age Messier wasn't even invited in 1998. That's about all you could say because other than that Messier wins this battle.

 

[habsfanatics*]

To me, Stevie Y was a much better player. Messier gets all his votes based on team achievements. There couldn't be a more overrated player than Messier imo.

Better career, perhaps, but better player, no way in hell.

 

[Big Phil]

To me, Stevie Y was a much better player. Messier gets all his votes based on team achievements. There couldn't be a more overrated player than Messier imo.

Better career, perhaps, but better player, no way in hell.

I'd like to hear your analysis of that though. Because since you look at the whole "team stats" thing being overrated I can assure you it wasn't. Yes, Gretzky was the man in those 4 Cups. Messier did win the Smythe in 1984 vs. Gretzky (agree with that or not if you will) and he was captain of both the 1990 and 1994 champs. He played a pivotal role in those two wins. There was no Gretzky to shoulder the responsibility here. He thrived on it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

To me, Stevie Y was a much better player. Messier gets all his votes based on team achievements. There couldn't be a more overrated player than Messier imo.

Better career, perhaps, but better player, no way in hell.

The Hart Trophy is an individual award

Top 5 finishes for the Hart:

Messier: 1st (1990), 1st (1992), 2nd (1996)
Yzerman: 3rd (1989), 4th (1988)

 

[FakeKidPoker*]

To me, Stevie Y was a much better player. Messier gets all his votes based on team achievements. There couldn't be a more overrated player than Messier imo.

Better career, perhaps, but better player, no way in hell.

He won two hart trophies something Yzerman couldn't even win once.

Not to mention he won cups without Gretzky... did Yzerman ever do anything without Lidstrom, his teams best player?

 

[Sens Rule]

I'd like to hear your analysis of that though. Because since you look at the whole "team stats" thing being overrated I can assure you it wasn't. Yes, Gretzky was the man in those 4 Cups. Messier did win the Smythe in 1984 vs. Gretzky (agree with that or not if you will) and he was captain of both the 1990 and 1994 champs. He played a pivotal role in those two wins. There was no Gretzky to shoulder the responsibility here. He thrived on it.

Well there was a dozen other veteran recent Cup winners on those teams. Not saying Messier wasn't a great Captain those years but 1990 was on a post dynasty Oiler's team filled with vets and the Rangers might have well been with all the ex-Oilers. Of course Yzerman had some great stars later on and Bowman.

The one big thing you can say for Yzerman in his younger offensive peak is he was a one man force. Few superstar centres end up at their peaks with wingers like Gallant and Probert. His contempories like Savard and Statsny had far better linemates. He never even had a Paul Maclean like Hawerchuk. Messier was a winger with Gretzky and once he was a centre he had Anderson.

I do think Messier was better. But imagine Yzerman as the second centre on the Oilers of the middle 80's. He would have, in my opinion, scored far more goals and points then Messier did.

The Oiler's were FAR better in the playoffs then the regular season. Some of it was Messier but in my opinion it was Gretzky. I think Gretzky taught ALL the Oiler's how to win and how to be the best. He gave them swagger because he was the best. Messier took that swaggar with him after Gretzky left the Oiler's and after Messier left for New York. I think giving TOO much credit to Messier for 1990 is a common occurance. The playoff 1990 Oilers were a playoff machine. Player's like Tilkanen and tons of others were playoff warriors. It is easy to lead a team that is already a united team of playoff veterans.

If anything Messier's actual play is underrated and his leadership is overrated. In my opinion. Yzerman's ability to difuse ego and become a cog in the machine later in his career in Detroit and be effective as Messier demanded he take over the whole show in Vancouver as he was declining and really should have only been a cog in the machine turns the leadership argument towards Yzerman.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

He won two hart trophies something Yzerman couldn't even win once.

Not to mention he won cups without Gretzky... did Yzerman ever do anything without Lidstrom, his teams best player?

To be fair to Yzerman, he probably wins the 1989 Hart against anything close to normal competition. Still, that's 1 Hart vs. potentially 3 for Messier (who was 2nd to Lemieux in 1996).

 

[habsfanatics*]

He won two hart trophies something Yzerman couldn't even win once.

Not to mention he won cups without Gretzky... did Yzerman ever do anything without Lidstrom, his teams best player?

It's hard to win harts when your direct competition during your prime is Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux and dman like Ray Bourque. It's hard to penalize Yzerman for coming short to those 3.

These two were placed into polar opposite situations. The Wings stunk and the Oilers were great. You switch their teams and the story is similar, but with Yzerman outproducing Messier by a lot imo.


At least one of Messier's Harts he didn't deserve imo. Mainly 1990 when Bourque should have been the winner. It was a nice narrative, but undeserving, Yzerman had two less points and nearly 20 more goals as well.

Samething in 92, Lemieux with 2 ppg. 15 games less played and 25 more points while making Kevin Stevens a 50 goal scorer. Sometimes all these awards do is call into question who the hell was voting.

Messier didn't achieve any of this until 10 years plus in the league.

You can't win the Smythe without great teams. I don't weigh them heavily at all. Yzerman has one too, so does Claude Lemieux.

Messier was an all-time great, but I feel the mystique surrounding his leadership and intangibles to be a load of hogwash.

Look, I know it's a minority opinion, but having watched both careers I feel that Yzerman was the better player and the circumstances surrounding them make the difference.

 

[pdd]

To be fair to Yzerman, he probably wins the 1989 Hart against anything close to normal competition. Still, that's 1 Hart vs. potentially 3 for Messier (who was 2nd to Lemieux in 1996).

Yzerman should have won the Hart. He was considered the favorite until the very end of the season, and won the Pearson. He had the worst teammates by far, and scored only a point apart from Lemieux and Gretzky at ES.

It's hard to win harts when your direct competition during your prime is Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux and dman like Ray Bourque. It's hard to penalize Yzerman for coming short to those 3.

These two were placed into polar opposite situations. The Wings stunk and the Oilers were great. You switch their teams and the story is similar, but with Yzerman outproducing Messier by a lot imo.


At least one of Messier's Harts he didn't deserve imo. Mainly 1990 when Bourque should have been the winner. It was a nice narrative, but undeserving, Yzerman had two less points and nearly 20 more goals as well.

Samething in 92, Lemieux with 2 ppg. 15 games less played and 25 more points while making Kevin Stevens a 50 goal scorer. Sometimes all these awards do is call into question who the hell was voting.

Messier didn't achieve any of this until 10 years plus in the league.

You can't win the Smythe without great teams. I don't weigh them heavily at all. Yzerman has one too, so does Claude Lemieux.

Messier was an all-time great, but I feel the mystique surrounding his leadership and intangibles to be a load of hogwash.

And that mystique is a huge reason for why Messier gets rated as highly as he does. The "guarantee" in 1994 is a huge part of why people talk about him as an amazing leader and incredible all-time great player. A five minute interview. A single sentence.

Look, I know it's a minority opinion, but having watched both careers I feel that Yzerman was the better player and the circumstances surrounding them make the difference.

Yzerman was definitely the better player. This is like arguing Rinne vs. Niemi.

 

[pdd]

He won two hart trophies something Yzerman couldn't even win once.

Not to mention he won cups without Gretzky... did Yzerman ever do anything without Lidstrom, his teams best player?

Posted the highest point total ever recorded by someone not named Gretzky or Lemieux, and did it without another 100-point player on the team. That's something Gretzky and Lemieux only achieved once each themselves.

Given that Yzerman had just recovered from surgery in the offseason to repair a severly injured knee that had ended his season the previous year; he missed 16 regular season games, but played the final 3 games of the CCF against Edmonton. With a support cast like Gretzky or Lemieux had and health like Gretzky's prime, could Yzerman have hit 200? It's certainly possible, he was being compared to those two in 1988 offensively. If he had retained his footspeed with no knee injury, maybe he is a perennial 70-80 goal guy instead of 50+ (he was on pace for 60+, and hit 65 and 62 the next two years).

 

[Rhiessan71]

He won two hart trophies something Yzerman couldn't even win once.

Not to mention he won cups without Gretzky... did Yzerman ever do anything without Lidstrom, his teams best player?

Lidstrom was NOT Detroit's best player in '97 or '98 and many, myself included, don't feel Lidstrom should have won the Conn in '02 but he should have won it in '08.

Don't you dare attempt to make all 4 of Detroit's Cups all about Lidstrom. They most certainly were not!

 

[habsfanatics*]

Lidstrom was NOT Detroit's best player in '97 or '98 and many, myself included, don't feel Lidstrom should have won the Conn in '02 but he should have won it in '08.

Don't you dare attempt to make all 4 of Detroit's Cups all about Lidstrom. They most certainly were not!

Agreed, but didn't feel like going down the Nik Lidstrom road again. The only other player overrated more than Mark Messier

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Lidstrom was NOT Detroit's best player in '97 or '98 and many, myself included, don't feel Lidstrom should have won the Conn in '02 but he should have won it in '08.

Don't you dare attempt to make all 4 of Detroit's Cups all about Lidstrom. They most certainly were not!

He shouldn't make it all about Lidstrom, but I think a valid counterargument to the "Messier had Gretzky" claim is "Messier won 2 Cups without Gretzky, while Yzerman didn't any Cups without Lidstrom and Fedorov." I thought Yzerman, Fedorov, and Lidstrom were close to co-MVPs across the 3 Cups between the lockouts.

That's not to say that Messier didn't have strong support, at least for the 1994 Cup.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

MOD Reminder: Nobody has run afoul of this yet, but here is a friendly reminder that this is not the thread in which to bicker about Nicklas Lidstrom.

Edit: Here is the proper thread for all things Lidstrom:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1297143

 

[FakeKidPoker*]

He shouldn't make it all about Lidstrom, but I think a valid counterargument to the "Messier had Gretzky" claim is "Messier won 2 Cups without Gretzky, while Yzerman didn't any Cups without Lidstrom and Fedorov." I thought Yzerman, Fedorov, and Lidstrom were close to co-MVPs across the 3 Cups between the lockouts.

That's not to say that Messier didn't have strong support, at least for the 1994 Cup.

This not making it all about Lidstrom at all just needed a name... I could have easily put Fedorov in there who did win a Hart and Two Selkes as well... but picked Lidstrom as I think everyone will agree is probably the gold standard for Red Wings over the past 20 years...and probably the best Wing since Howe.

As said I don't post much on the history section so sorry if Lidstrom is a real sore point or something.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

The Hart Trophy is an individual award

Top 5 finishes for the Hart:

Messier: 1st (1990), 1st (1992), 2nd (1996)
Yzerman: 3rd (1989), 4th (1988)

A few people (including you) have mentioned that the competition skews this comparison. If we remove Gretzky and Lemieux, it looks like:

Messier: 1st (1990), 1st (1992), 1st (1996)
Yzerman: 1st (1989), 2nd (1988)

One could argue that Bourque deserved the Hart over Messier in 1990 (since it was such a close race), and/or that Yzerman really deserved the Hart in 1988 (the only mortal player to finish above him was Fuhr, and one could argue it's unlikely that Fuhr would have won the Hart on another team).

If we use both of these assumptions (which are favourable to Yzerman), the revised trophy case looks like:

Messier: 1st (1992), 1st (1996), 2nd (1990)
Yzerman: 1st (1988), 1st (1989)

It's definitely closer than the original comparison but no matter how you slice it, Messier fared better than Yzerman in Hart voting.

 

[FakeKidPoker*]

It's hard to win harts when your direct competition during your prime is Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux and dman like Ray Bourque. It's hard to penalize Yzerman for coming short to those 3.

These two were placed into polar opposite situations. The Wings stunk and the Oilers were great. You switch their teams and the story is similar, but with Yzerman outproducing Messier by a lot imo.


At least one of Messier's Harts he didn't deserve imo. Mainly 1990 when Bourque should have been the winner. It was a nice narrative, but undeserving, Yzerman had two less points and nearly 20 more goals as well.

Samething in 92, Lemieux with 2 ppg. 15 games less played and 25 more points while making Kevin Stevens a 50 goal scorer. Sometimes all these awards do is call into question who the hell was voting.

Messier didn't achieve any of this until 10 years plus in the league.

You can't win the Smythe without great teams. I don't weigh them heavily at all. Yzerman has one too, so does Claude Lemieux.

Messier was an all-time great, but I feel the mystique surrounding his leadership and intangibles to be a load of hogwash.

Look, I know it's a minority opinion, but having watched both careers I feel that Yzerman was the better player and the circumstances surrounding them make the difference.

Messier did it, twice.

I don't know how you can say 92 should have been to Lemieux but 88-89 to Yzerman.

Lemieux had 44 more points than Yzerman was well over a goal per game and if played the full season would have been just shy of Gretzky's all time record....playing with Rob Brown

I will concede Yzerman was a little bit better than Mess on just offensive alone (Mess would have put up similar numbers if not behind Gretz though) but Messier simply was a better overall player and had a far better career.

Also Messier is probably the only player ever that "intangibles" can be brought up legitimately.. and I'm a Chicago Blackhawks fan

 

[FakeKidPoker*]

Also the guarantee was brought up.. well it's just what happened after that? He went out and he scored a hattrick and also got an assist.

He was in on every single goal the Rangers scored that night.

He was just such a dominating figure a true playoff legend.

Did we ever get that from Yzerman? Yes he was a great player but just ever the feeling he could just will a team to victory?

Even in his prime he still had big struggles in the playoffs.

 

[jkrx]

Also the guarantee was brought up.. well it's just what happened after that? He went out and he scored a hattrick and also got an assist.

He was in on every single goal the Rangers scored that night.

He was just such a dominating figure a true playoff legend.

Did we ever get that from Yzerman? Yes he was a great player but just ever the feeling he could just will a team to victory?

Even in his prime he still had big struggles in the playoffs.

Yes, many fans got that feeling in '02 but maybe not as much as they did about Messier. Besides, Messiers guarantee was a gamble and he did it several times more after '94 which all failed.

I dislike that such things gets hyped up to such an extent that it propells a player above others. It's like the Legend of Bill Barilko.