Messier vs Yzerman - Better Hockey Player (Career)

[Neutrinos]

What a joke of an argument. Yzerman's teams were more stacked than Messier's for the vast majority of their careers. Also, what happened when Gretz and Kurri left and everyone had written the Oilers off? Oh yeah Mess carried them to one of the most improbable Stanley Cups in NHL history. He was also dominant playing for the Rangers but you just seem to have left out half of his career.

Messier actually finished tied with Craig Simpson in team playoff scoring, and it was Ranford, not Messier, who took home the Conn Smythe

 

[streitz]

I think the criticism is that Messier was a more complete player at a younger age

No he wasnt', lol.

 

[streitz]

What a joke of an argument. Yzerman's teams were more stacked than Messier's for the vast majority of their careers. Also, what happened when Gretz left and everyone had written the Oilers off? Oh yeah Mess carried them a Stanley Cup. He was also dominant playing for the Rangers but you just seem to have left out half of his career.

1. What? lol

2. If 80-90 points(and a 107 point campaign) is 'dominant for the Rangers' it's no wonder they have 1 cup in like 60 years. No disrespect to his playoff performance in 94 but you're making his time on the Rags more then it was. Not to mention how pitiful he was during his 2nd stint with them.


3. Yeah he did well in 90, but post Gretz Oilers were still substantially better then any wings team from the 80's to the point where it's not close.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I think the criticism is that Messier was a more complete player at a younger age (and for more years of their career). I think its splitting hairs either way. Both were great. I picked Mess because of the physicality that he brought to the game that Yzerman didn't.

And yet you still continue to use that as an excuse while knowing their situations and still ignoring them.....

Messier was groomed into a second line winger early on, and didn’t hit the ground running until a few years into his career. He then became a second line center with top notch wingers.

Yzerman on the other hand was drafted on a poor team and was given the keys to it. He became(at the time) the youngest captain and their best/key player very early on.

Messier was more “complete” because he was given the advantages and opportunities to become one. Yzerman wasn’t. Yzerman was also better offensively IMO, given that he was one of the best players for a good span of time while on garbage teams.

I understand you like physicality, but your still using things against Yzerman that were simply out of his control. Although still a good defensive player, he had to carry his team year in and year out offensively. Messier never had to do that. Yzerman also became a better defensive player than Messier ever was later on regardless, and his impact helped his team win 3 cups and him a Smythe. Does it really matter that he didn’t do that early on? Especially when you really didn’t have the opportunity to?

 

[streitz]

Messier was more “complete” because he was given the advantages and opportunities to become one. Yzerman wasn’t. Yzerman was also better offensively IMO, given that he was one of the best players for a good span of time while on garbage teams.

Messier wasn't really more complete on the Oilers though. That team had so much firepower they didn't need to play defense, lol.

Aside from a few guys like Tikkanen(spelling?) and Kurri who were solid 2 way forwards, the only forward I cant think from the oilers who I'd class as an 'elite defensive forward' is MacTavish.


Messier and Anderson weren't there to play defense, they were there to score goals.

 

[GreatGonzo]

What a joke of an argument. Yzerman's teams were more stacked than Messier's for the vast majority of their careers. Also, what happened when Gretz left and everyone had written the Oilers off? Oh yeah Mess carried them a Stanley Cup. He was also dominant playing for the Rangers but you just seem to have left out half of his career.

Your the only one who honestly believes Yzermans teams were more stacked. That’s a joke. Gretzky, Kurri, Coffey......those names ring a bell? What line did Messier play on again?

Messier didn’t carry anyone anywhere. The ‘90 oilers still were an amazing team. Playing with Simpson, Kurri, and Tikkanen.....all having outstanding playoffs, with Simpson leading the team in points and goals(hence why your “carrying” argument is trash). Witu Ranford winning the Smythe. The ‘94 Rangers were also a stacked team.

You seem to have left out the other half of Yzermans career where he was on poor teams and putting up amazing numbers...why ignore that part?

 

[GreatGonzo]

Messier wasn't really more complete on the Oilers though. That team had so much firepower they didn't need to play defense, lol.

Aside from a few guys like Tikkanen(spelling?) and Kurri who were solid 2 way forwards, the only forward I cant think from the oilers who I'd class as an 'elite defensive forward' is MacTavish.


Messier and Anderson weren't there to play defense, they were there to score goals.

Very true. Messier was still a solid defensive player....but his play in his own end is getting greatly exaggerated. He definitely had benefits that Yzerman did not have until much later.

 

[DoobieDubas]

Favourite player of all time.

Stevey Y baby

 

[streitz]

Very true. Messier was still a solid defensive player....but his play in his own end is getting greatly exaggerated. He definitely had benefits that Yzerman did not have until much later.

I mean during the oilers heyday I'd say Gretzky was solid defensively in the sense that the best defense is a good offense. You don't need to play defense if you always have the puck.

 

[Thenameless]

The Oilers won that series in 5 games, out-scoring the Islanders 21 - 12 in the process

It's not that simple. The devil's in the details:

Gotta See It: Messier's '84 series-turning goal - Sportsnet.ca

After Game 2, the series was tied at 1-1, with the Islanders looking to build momentum after having blown out the Oilers 6-1. And they were actually ahead in Game 3. Remember, these are the Dynasty Islanders that had just won 4 Cups in a row, beating Edmonton in the last one. Apart from the crucial Game 3 goal mentioned above, the Messier hit on Potvin in Game 1 really helped set the tone for the Oilers in that final. Everyone played a little bigger, a little more confidently after that. Gretzky could be relied on to always lead in scoring, but there was something about the way that Messier played that changed the complexion of this series - and it was recognized by the Conn Smythe. This is something that Yzerman could not have done for the Oilers at that time. Yzerman is the more polished offensive player, but he instilled no fear on opposing players. And intimidation was a more tangible thing in the 80's.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Yzerman is better at being a GM and not being an assholet than Messier.
Messier is slightly better at hockey and much better at taking your head off than Yzerman

 

[streitz]

Messier is slightly better at hockey

Why did Messier never score 155 points then?

 

[ManofSteel55]

Why did Messier never score 155 points then?

So you are using 1season to say which player was better? Seems legit.

 

[streitz]

So you are using 1season to say which player was better? Seems legit.

So you have no answer for this ?

 

[Jim MacDonald]

I know I might seem impartial due to my avatar....but I'll try to put forward a "good" argument for Stevie Y....and certainly welcome rebuttals as good, healthy passionate "bar stool banter" between fans is fun! 1. I've never heard people say Messier was both the best offensive and defensive player on his team, I have heard this said about Yzerman. 2. Yzerman, as crazy as this my sound because of the deterioration of his right knee, still, when healthy, was important to the team toward the end of his career....I've heard Messier, despite his diminishing skills, refused to take a reduced role/reduced minutes. 3. Yzerman could be used on both special teams (power play and penalty kill) because of his tremendous ability to win faceoffs. I don't really think of Messier as a special teams guy, granted I didn't get a love for hockey until Messier became a Ranger, so I might not know about Messier's special teams prowess during the Oiler's dynasty.

 

[GoGoSens]

Messier was better.

close this thread.

 

[JustinCase]

A quick search of the all time greatest lists will show that Messier is overwhelmingly regarded as the better all time player.

 

[Craig Button]

MAINEC

 

[Cup or Bust]

Why did Messier never score 155 points then?

Why did Yzerman never win any Hart Trophies?

 

[tomi2]

Messier was a slight tier ahead of Yzerman (and Sakic). He is clearly better.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Messier

And it isn't even close

 

[Volica]

Gotta go with Moose.
Also points for biggest asshole in the league. That Vancouver contract. LOL

 

[The Red Line]

I feel Yzerman was more skilled. He was a better skater, a better playmaker, but... a seven game series starts tomorrow and I need to pick between a prime Yzerman and a prime Messier to center my top line... I'm going to have to go with the Moose. I love a star player who plays with an edge. Messier played to win hockey games, period. His competitiveness was through the roof, he was tough and he topped that off with incredible skill and all-around playing ability. He could score and pass, and lead the charge no matter what went on in the ice. Great defensive player, great faceoff-taker, great matchup guy.

Yzerman was also a leader, but a more reserved one. He didn't have the same fire in his eyes. I think head-to-head, Messier would take the matchup. Both were super close skill-wise, so small things matter. Yzerman also peaked offensively while he sucked as a defensive and a team player. His overall game improved immensely in the mid-90's, but I was always confused which Yzerman was the real one. Or which was the peak. I feel maybe the defensive apt Yzerman was the better one to have.

Most importantly, Yzerman also played for the Wings, so **** him. I was never going to vote for him regardless.

Literally all of those things describe Yzerman, some of them actually describe him better than they do Messier. Then I read your last line and it all made sense. Why even bother attempting to explain when you can't even get past your own petty biases?

 

[Binister]

Loved Yzerman as a kid, he had a catchy and a cool name when me as a four year heard it for the first time. I have his jersey also so I pick him.

 

[SwedishFire]

Stevie was great, elite forward who learned all areas of the game to near perfection...but Mark Messier guaranteed victory and then came out and got a hat trick in the third period when the team was down in the ECF and later won the Cup.

Can't in good faith vote against that degree of ballsiness and boss moveage, unless it's between him and Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe and so on.

So one game triumphs a whole career?
For me Yzerman comes down to a smarter person and a bigger talent. Messier having great leadership,but some asshole-ness, and a mean streak that helps.

Dont know whos better. Messiers career in Van wasnt alright from what I understand.

Yzerman inspired a whole generation, scoring 692 something goals, being a legend in his own right.