Messier vs Yzerman - Better Hockey Player (Career)

Discussion in 'Polls - (hockey-related only)' started by Machinehead, Jan 12, 2019.

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Messier or Yzerman?

Poll closed Jan 22, 2019.
  1. Mark Messier

    53.7%
  2. Steve Yzerman

    46.3%
  1. streitz

    streitz Registered User

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    Would those 80's wings teams have even made the playoffs with Messier instead? Serious question.


    Because I recall Messier missing the playoffs for 7 years in a row with more talented teams then what Yzerman had to work with.
     
  2. psycat

    psycat Registered User

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    But in every Karlsson thread you blame him for being forced to carry the offense in Ottawa?
     
  3. ManofSteel55

    ManofSteel55 Registered User

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    This is rose coloured memories. At his offensive peak, Yzerman was not a good shutdown centre, he was double shifted, but he was in a scoring role basically all of the time. It was only a bit later into his career when he was told he would never be a champion by playing his style of one way hockey. Yzerman's defensive play was awful until he decided to change, and that is exactly when his offensive numbers started to take a big hit.
     
  4. GreatGonzo

    GreatGonzo Registered Derp

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    Well for one, I never did that. Two...that makes no sense what so ever. How does one “blame” someone for being the main source of offense on a team?

    I’ve never blamed EK for anything offensively. It’s mainly his defense that I’ve criticized. Try again
     
  5. streitz

    streitz Registered User

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    Like I said I watched the games in the 80's. I don't listen to panel analysts talking about narratives to get ratings and make themselves feel more knowledgeable.


    Yzerman himself is quoted saying he doesn't feel he played differently. His idol Trottier was quoted saying he always felt yzerman was good defensively. His decline in scoring probably coincides with....Get this.... Age.


    As for getting better defensively with age, 1999 Carbonneau was better defensively then 1982 Carbonneau. Who would have figured that.
     
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  6. GreatGonzo

    GreatGonzo Registered Derp

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    I’ve actually read on the history forum that Yzerman was not awful or bad defensively early on, he just wasn’t utilized that way....and for good reason as you have pointed out.

    Also, Bowman had Yzerman change his style, he didn’t simply choose to. But it couldn’t have come at a more perfect time IMO. his offense went down mainly due to injuries while exiting his peak/prime for the most part. He was 30 when he got any considerable selke votes and he still put up 95 points. He didn’t win his selke until he was 34.
     
  7. Cursed Lemon

    Cursed Lemon Registered Bruiser

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    Yzerman was never a "shutdown" player, a la Zetterberg. That doesn't mean he wasn't good defensively, otherwise Datsyuk would never have sniffed a Selke.
     
  8. mattydamon

    mattydamon Registered User

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    Yzerman

    **** Messier
     
  9. ManofSteel55

    ManofSteel55 Registered User

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    And like I said, its rose coloured glasses. You are remembering it the way you choose to. I watched the games in the 1980's as well, and while Yzerman may have been just as capable defensively in the 80's, he certainly didn't play that way all of the time. It's like Gretzky - he was always capable of being an elite scorer, but he figured out along the way that he was more valuable to his teammates as an elite set up man so he chose to play differently. Yzerman was the same. In his younger years, he focused a lot on his offense, you can tell if you go back and re-watch the games. Perhaps he wasn't "incapable" of playing defensive hockey, but that certainly wasn't his primary role as often, his team needed him to score. There certainly weren't many others who could do it consistently without him basically gift wrapping goals for them at that time.
     
  10. ManofSteel55

    ManofSteel55 Registered User

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    Checks location. Sounds about right.
     
  11. streitz

    streitz Registered User

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    Trottier says. "I played against him back then and I remember him killing penalties, hustling and back-checking. I guess no one else does."


    Hockey
     
  12. ManofSteel55

    ManofSteel55 Registered User

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    You can do all of those things while still putting more emphasis on the offensive side of the game. Hustling and backchecking doesn't make a guy especially good defensively either. Lots of guys do that but don't have the positioning or play the style needed to be any more than average defensively. I think you must think that I am saying that Yzerman was 100% a bad defensive player who only cared about the offensive side of the game. I don't believe I ever said that, I said he focused more on scoring because his team needed him to. I still think that is an accurate description.
     
  13. streitz

    streitz Registered User

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    Yes it does.
     
  14. GreatGonzo

    GreatGonzo Registered Derp

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    Your whole position has been debunked twice already. So what exactly are you trying to prove?

    We get it, Yzerman wasn’t THAT great defensively for your liking. You know why and what position he was in to HAVE to be a main offensive threat.....so why are you arguing his defensive capabilities back then?

    Again, I have no idea why you think your correct on what you say. He “didn’t care” about defense? He was “100% bad defensively”? Both statements have been proven wrong....why you continue to argue them is beyond me.
    we remember Yzerman being one of the best offensive players during his prime, carrying around some really bad wing teams, and being among the best in the league during all this.....you are the one who seems to think that means he was “bad” defensively because he chose to be the teams top offensive threat, which again, he had no choice in the end. He was the reason that team stayed afloat.

    Your Gretzky reference has nothing to do with what your arguing. Gretzky was always a top set up guy, his goal scoring totals continued to soar as the years went on...:and even before that he was an elite scorer regardless. He didn’t “choose”, he is the best playmaker to ever play.....that was his main weapon...his anticipation, vision, possession, and ability to know where his teammates were going to be. He was one of the best goal scorers ever as well, but his playmaking was beyond comprehension.

    You can’t claim that he didn’t care about the defensive side of things(knowing the context), and that he was 100% bad defensively, only to then say that it wasn’t like he wasn’t capable of that he had a choice......yes, his primary role was to score....because he was the only one who could lead that team offensively at the time. Notice how things shifted later on?
     
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  15. Thenameless

    Thenameless Registered User

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    I like Yzerman a lot more than I like Messier. But Messier is the better hockey player - at least as far as their careers went.

    Now, had Messier been drafted by Detroit, and Yzerman by Edmonton then things may have turned out differently. We need to remember though that Messier was a big part of the Oilers' first Cup (Conn Smythe in 84), and Yzerman was only a rookie that year. They may not have beaten the Islanders without Messier's physical presence.
     
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  16. ManofSteel55

    ManofSteel55 Registered User

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    Not alone it doesn't. Lots of guys hustle and backcheck but aren't especially good defensively.
     
  17. Datsyukian Deke

    Datsyukian Deke The Captain is Home!!

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    For his first 6 or 7 years until Fedorov came along.

    Messier, obviously never had that problem during that span.
     
  18. streitz

    streitz Registered User

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    Well Yzerman was.
     
  19. ManofSteel55

    ManofSteel55 Registered User

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    Sure, eventually he did.
     
  20. GreatGonzo

    GreatGonzo Registered Derp

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    I mean even then Yzerman was still at his best offensively up until his injury in ‘94. That’s when Fedorov took the reigns with an amazing season.

    Not just that but he was a second line center playing with Anderson.
     
  21. GreatGonzo

    GreatGonzo Registered Derp

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    Why should that be held against him?
     
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  22. ManofSteel55

    ManofSteel55 Registered User

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    I think the criticism is that Messier was a more complete player at a younger age (and for more years of their career). I think its splitting hairs either way. Both were great. I picked Mess because of the physicality that he brought to the game that Yzerman didn't.
     
  23. allhailmatthews

    allhailmatthews Registered User

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    Messier was the better player, the more complete player in his prime. That is why he made Canada Cup rosters in 87 and 91 and Yzerman didn't, won 2 Hart Trophies and Yzerman didn't. If you wanted to win, Messier was the guy. All he did was win in his prime, with or without Gretzky. 5 on 5, powerplay, shorthanded, clutch, whatever was needed. Yzerman was a great player and had a great career in his own right though.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
  24. Connor McConnor

    Connor McConnor Registered User

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    What a joke of an argument. Yzerman's teams were more stacked than Messier's for the vast majority of their careers. Also, what happened when Gretz left and everyone had written the Oilers off? Oh yeah Mess carried them a Stanley Cup. He was also dominant playing for the Rangers but you just seem to have left out half of his career.
     
  25. Neutrinos

    Neutrinos Registered User

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    The Oilers won that series in 5 games, out-scoring the Islanders 21 - 12 in the process
     

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