Messier Trade

[GMR]

This trade isn't mentioned as often as the Gretzky trade.

Nicholls was several years removed from his 150 point season. The other guys involved were a goon (Debrusk) and Steven Rice. Beukeboom also went to the Rangers in this trade.

Was this just a money dump where Edmonton had no leverage to ask for a better return?

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[Michael Farkas]

Mr. Super Leader asked to be traded and threw this whole "you'll never see me in this uniform again" pity party...there was a contract dispute, he was unhappy that his old pals were being traded/let go from the team...on the heels of a Cup and a trip to the Conference Final, he made up his mind that the team was a loser and he didn't want to be around anymore...

He even opted out of the '91 Canada Cup during all of this until Gretzky convinced him otherwise...

He was rewarded with a near unanimous Hart Trophy for his trouble...despite getting lapped in goals, assists, and points by a number of others, where his scoring fell more in line with "superstar's linemate" than superstar.

This message didn't start out so passive aggressive, but then I really leaned into it...I'm sorry.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Mr. Super Leader asked to be traded and threw this whole "you'll never see me in this uniform again" pity party...there was a contract dispute, he was unhappy that his old pals were being traded/let go from the team...on the heels of a Cup and a trip to the Conference Final, he made up his mind that the team was a loser and he didn't want to be around anymore...

He even opted out of the '91 Canada Cup during all of this until Gretzky convinced him otherwise...

Because of Messier notably being one fellow HoH regular’s infallible childhood hero or whatever it is, your choice of wording made me chuckle.

 

[sr edler]

I never contemplated the fact Louie DeBrusk was a goon, but if you look at his paper resume then, yeah, it kinda looks like one.

I might also have mixed him up with Rob DiMaio, the guy most famous for being properly body-slammed by Lindros.

Messier probably threw Beukeboom into the trade himself.

 

[sr edler]

Panther is also the biggest Bernie Nicholls fan on this board.

I think 95% of all Nicholls talk on this board is Panther, often Orson Welles-esque radio monologue style.

 

[Crosby2010]

I wonder if the trade that sent Fuhr and Anderson to the Leafs in September of 1991 was the straw that broke the camel's back for Messier. He would be traded in October of 1991 to the Rangers. Because in all honesty the 1991 Oilers had a very good roster and went all of the way to the semis that year. Messier missed a lot of time that season which is why they were only a .500 team but on that 1991 team you still had Fuhr, Ranford, Anderson, Tikkanen, Klima, Lowe, Huddy, MacTavish, Smith, Simpson, etc. With a healthy Messier that team is a Cup contender. But they started to deplete the team after 1991. The truth is the Messier trade to the Rangers should have been a home run for the Oilers but it wasn't. Nicholls going the other way isn't Messier, but he was always good for a point per game at least. Louie DeBrusk never amounted to anything but I think the wild card was Steven Rice who was definitely thought to be a good prospect that would flourish. Had a great junior career, played on two Canadian WJCs, he should have been the one that made this trade make sense. But as it is, he never panned out.

The Oilers in 1991 and 1992 are two very different teams with a cast of different players. Both made the semis though, but there isn't too often a difference in players over the course of a year like this.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

steven rice was captain of the 1991 wjc team and i remember him being projected to be a very good, if sub-elite power forward, in the vein of someone like shane doan

i definitely remember someone saying “young messier” about him, although you have to read through the de rigueur prospect hyperbole obviously to get to how he was actually regarded at the time

 

[K Fleur]

Panther is also the biggest Bernie Nicholls fan on this board.

I think 95% of all Nicholls talk on this board is Panther, often Orson Welles-esque radio monologue style.

“Yes he had Gretzky but that doesn’t really matter at all and Bernie really was an excellent player in his own right. I mean if you look at this cherry picked stretch of games he might actually be an all time great”

-Probably

 

[The Panther]

(Just for the record, I have never argued that Nicholls was an all-time great, and only recently I posted on here that I don't think he should be a Hall of Famer -- a topic raised by someone else -- whereas a couple of other people on here think he should be. So, I don't know where you guys are getting your information about me, but it's not from me. I'm not even that big of a Nicholls' fan.)

I think all Oilers' trades from 1987 to about 2004 are what they are -- money-saving deals with a bit of hope for a good player, though that was a lesser concern.

It's easy to understand why Messier left in 1991---which, by the way, I think was just about the right time (whereas I think Gretzky left two or three years too early). For one thing, Mess was ready for the "second act" of his career and a new situation. I think that's quite natural when several of your peers and friends (Coffey, Gretzky, Kurri, plus several of the 1979-era guys he came in with) have left town for greener pastures. The other thing is obviously money. The Oilers simply couldn't afford to pay him what he was worth. I mean, what was he making in 1990-91---like, $600,000 or something? He was 30 and had had some serious injury issues that season (the Rangers refused to contract him until the team doctor cleared him, so worried were they about this). So, I mean, if you're recoving from injury, seeing guys you came in with retiring, and you're making $600,000 but worth $2 million on the open market, one can hardly blame him for wanting to try a new team.

There was always a thing with Doug Messier (Mark's Dad) and Sather, during training camp, from around 1986 to 1990, where Mark would hold out while his Dad negotiated with Sather. And I think, by 1990-91, the Messier camp was tired of having to spend weeks hammering out a contract every year that would pay Mess less than he was worth.

 

[sr edler]

I'm not even that big of a Nicholls' fan.

In this thread from March 2022, which is less than two years ago, you start your first post (#9) by saying

He was awesome! One of my favorite players ever, in fact.

Then a couple of posts (#18) later, you reiterate this stance

Bernie Nicholls (one of my favorite players of all time, btw)

Btw, this isn't meant as some great gotcha moment, I don't think you should be ashamed liking Nicholls. We all like various players for a lot of different reasons.

 

[The Panther]

In this thread from March 2022, which is less than two years ago, you start your first post (#9) by saying



Then a couple of posts (#18) later, you reiterate this stance



Btw, this isn't meant as some great gotcha moment, I don't think you should be ashamed liking Nicholls. We all like various players for a lot of different reasons.

Okay. I don't sit around ranking my favorite players, but if I did, I"m guessing Nicholls would be around the #25 to #30 range. Perhaps on that particular day, in March 2022, I was feeling particularly generous towards him. I'm not sure why this is of great importance to you.

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

Mr. Super Leader asked to be traded and threw this whole "you'll never see me in this uniform again" pity party...there was a contract dispute, he was unhappy that his old pals were being traded/let go from the team...on the heels of a Cup and a trip to the Conference Final, he made up his mind that the team was a loser and he didn't want to be around anymore...

He even opted out of the '91 Canada Cup during all of this until Gretzky convinced him otherwise...

He was rewarded with a near unanimous Hart Trophy for his trouble...despite getting lapped in goals, assists, and points by a number of others, where his scoring fell more in line with "superstar's linemate" than superstar.

This message didn't start out so passive aggressive, but then I really leaned into it...I'm sorry.

But I mean, its not like his forecast was wrong, outside of that weird 91-92 version of the team nobody talks about

 

[Michael Farkas]

Maybe. He and his friends left a small party...when asked why he left, "After we left, there was no one at the party."

 

[blogofmike]

This trade isn't mentioned as often as the Gretzky trade.

Nicholls was several years removed from his 150 point season. The other guys involved were a goon (Debrusk) and Steven Rice. Beukeboom also went to the Rangers in this trade.

Was this just a money dump where Edmonton had no leverage to ask for a better return?

Messier wanted out and Edmonton wanted money.

Messier signed a bigger contract in New York to become the 3rd highest paid player in the NHL (after 99 and 66)
Messier Signs for Five Years, $13 Million

As you can see from the LA Times article above there was no mention of cash, but as you can see here:
Secret cash payment to Pocklington in Mark Messier deal finally comes to light

The Oilers secretly got $2 million in cash.

Which, if I were to guess, was a huge deal to Pocklington, and the key piece in the return.

So it was a salary dump and cash grab all in one.

 

[JJ18Sniper]

Messier wanted out and Edmonton wanted money.

Messier signed a bigger contract in New York to become the 3rd highest paid player in the NHL (after 99 and 66)
Messier Signs for Five Years, $13 Million

As you can see from the LA Times article above there was no mention of cash, but as you can see here:
Secret cash payment to Pocklington in Mark Messier deal finally comes to light

The Oilers secretly got $2 million in cash.

Which, if I were to guess, was a huge deal to Pocklington, and the key piece in the return.

So it was a salary dump and cash grab all in one.

Makes a lot more sense now!

 

[FerrisRox]

Messier wanted out and Edmonton wanted money.

Messier signed a bigger contract in New York to become the 3rd highest paid player in the NHL (after 99 and 66)
Messier Signs for Five Years, $13 Million

As you can see from the LA Times article above there was no mention of cash, but as you can see here:
Secret cash payment to Pocklington in Mark Messier deal finally comes to light

The Oilers secretly got $2 million in cash.

Which, if I were to guess, was a huge deal to Pocklington, and the key piece in the return.

So it was a salary dump and cash grab all in one.

Great post.

I missed this and never realized that Pocklington had actually confirmed the cash in the Messier transaction.

 

[Neutrinos]

I've always just assumed that like the Gretzky to L.A. deal, the NHL wanted a superstar in New York, and the Oilers were used to facilitate that

 

[Stephen]

I want to throw out a curveball here.

When you look at the relatively poor and one sided retusn from the Messier trade, Ron Francis trade, or Gilmour + for Leeman +, and other similar blockbusters that ended up looking lopsided during that era, I wonder how many teams figured their outgoing star player would be on a steep decline and out of the game in relatively short order?

I use someone like Bryan Trottier as an example of the aging curve back in 1992, time of the Messier trade.. Trottier was a 1956 born and had half a decade on Messier and the gold standard of centermen half a generation before Gretzky and Messier. By the start of 1991-92, Trottier was a complete shadow of his former Conn Smythe, Hart, and Art Ross self and pretty much a role player on Pittsburgh.

Would it have been unreasonable for Edmonton to assume Messier would be done and out of the game in a few short years and why not get a decent return around Nicholls, DeBrusk and Rice? Who could have figured Messier would have another Hart, Cup and 12 years of hockey left in him?

 

[MadLuke]

, I wonder how many teams figured their outgoing star player would be on a steep decline and out of the game in relatively short order?

That an interesting theory, but Nicholls is the same age than Messier, Cullen is only one year younger than Francis, maybe quite the different mileage on them and it was more wear and tear than age in that era.

 

[Stephen]

That an interesting theory, but Nicholls is the same age than Messier, Cullen is only one year younger than Francis, maybe quite the different mileage on them and it was more wear and tear than age in that era.

No clear explanation other than Cullen and Nicholls seemed to break into the league later than Francis and Messier?

 

[blogofmike]

No clear explanation other than Cullen and Nicholls seemed to break into the league later than Francis and Messier?

Messier for Nicholls seems to be money-driven on both sides.

Francis for Cullen was money on the owner's side:
Pittsburgh Steelers, Penguins, Pirates News, Live Coverage | DK Pittsburgh Sports

Gilmour for Leeman was money on Gilmour's side
EDIT- I can't figure out how to link to sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/maple-leafs-flames-doug-gilmour-trade/

The common theme is rising salaries post-Gretzky-trade. Ironically, Edmonton helped create a financial situation where they couldn't compete and almost moved to Houston before being sold locally. Hartford did move a few years after being sold in 1994. Messier won a Cup and Hart as the top forward and wanted to be paid. Gilmour won a Cup and thought he was jobbed in arbitration - he had his bags packed to go to the national team and Calgary traded him the next day. Eddie Johnston said Francis was on a list of 4 people who ownership wanted to trade in the Francis trade article (same section where Neil Smith notes the economics of the Gretzky trade.)

Toronto was probably just fortunate that Leeman wanted out around the same time and/or Trader Cliff was on top of their Rolodex in Calgary. Toronto and New York had no issue with spending money. Neither did Pittsburgh but maybe it was money they didn't have and that came back to bite them at the end of the decade.