Messier in Vancouver

[Sens Rule]

Gretz played awesome in the P/O's the year b4 but he never had the same success in the regular season that Messier had during his tenure with Vancover and years after Gretz Retired, Just look @ THE STATS, an injured Older Messier was better than Gretzky.

Gretzky was better in New York than Messier was in Vancouver. Of this I have no doubt. Still an assist machine. Messier didn't play like Messier in Vancouver - he played a non-interested game. The Stats don't show Messier was better in Vancouver either. 90 points vs 60? 62 points vs 48?

How was old Messier better statistically than Gretzky?

 

[The Thomas J.*]

Gretzky was better in New York than Messier was in Vancouver. Of this I have no doubt. Still an assist machine. Messier didn't play like Messier in Vancouver - he played a non-interested game. The Stats don't show Messier was better in Vancouver either. 90 points vs 60? 62 points vs 48?

How was old Messier better statistically than Gretzky?

Goal scoring wise he was better, Gretzkys last year he 9 Goals. He stopped shooting the puck, may have been his back bothering him, he never gave any reason for it
I'm not trying to take anything away from Gretzky, he did his thing.

 

[Forever27]

Goal scoring wise he was better, Gretzkys last year he 9 Goals. He stopped shooting the puck, may have been his back bothering him, he never gave any reason for it
I'm not trying to take anything away from Gretzky, he did his thing.

Wayne Gretzky led team in scoring for every year he was there. 9 goals yeah, but 53 assists too...

 

[Sens Rule]

Goal scoring wise he was better, Gretzkys last year he 9 Goals. He stopped shooting the puck, may have been his back bothering him, he never gave any reason for it
I'm not trying to take anything away from Gretzky, he did his thing.

Gretzky scored 23 the first year after Messier left year before and Messier scored 22. Of course Gretzky ALSO tied for the league lead in assists and 3rd overall in the NHL in points. But somehow LESS goals and 2/3rds as many points is better statistically?

Messier got 13 goals in his second Vancouver season while Gretzky only got 9 goals.
Of course Gretzky in his final year got 53 assists. Still good enough for 6th overall in the NHL.

Yeah nice try but You are completely wrong.

 

[Alan Jackson]

The Messier era in Vancouver was nothing short of a disaster.

I'm a Canuck fan, so I know full well that we haven't enjoyed a lot of success in Vancouver, but the Messier/Keenan years may have been the darkest days of the franchise, and that's saying something.

When you compare what was expected with what was delivered, the Messier signing might well be the biggest free-agent bust in the history of the sport.

Messier was supposed to lead the Canucks to Cups, not tear the team apart and lead them to nothing but lottery draft picks.

 

[The Thomas J.*]

Gretzky scored 23 the first year after Messier left year before and Messier scored 22. Of course Gretzky ALSO tied for the league lead in assists and 3rd overall in the NHL in points. But somehow LESS goals and 2/3rds as many points is better statistically?

Messier got 13 goals in his second Vancouver season while Gretzky only got 9 goals.
Of course Gretzky in his final year got 53 assists. Still good enough for 6th overall in the NHL.

Yeah nice try but You are completely wrong.

It still wasn't good enough to get the Rangers to the Playoffs.
If the player rles were reversed, do you think Vancover would have done better with Gretzky?

 

[The Thomas J.*]

The Messier era in Vancouver was nothing short of a disaster.

I'm a Canuck fan, so I know full well that we haven't enjoyed a lot of success in Vancouver, but the Messier/Keenan years may have been the darkest days of the franchise, and that's saying something.

When you compare what was expected with what was delivered, the Messier signing might well be the biggest free-agent bust in the history of the sport.

Messier was supposed to lead the Canucks to Cups, not tear the team apart and lead them to nothing but lottery draft picks.

IMO the biggest free agent signing bust was the Rangers signing Theo Flurey. That guy was given a boat load of Money & did nothing on the ice. Off the ice he was a Disaster too.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Just look @ THE STATS, an injured Older Messier was better than Gretzky.

That's a ridiculous statement. Gretzky led the Rangers in scoring in all three of his seasons in New York, even in his final season when his bad back rendered him far less effective.

The stats?

Gretzky's point totals in his final three seasons with the Rangers: 97-90-62.

Messier's point totals in his final four seasons with the Rangers: 67-23-40-43.

Good thing we looked at the stats.

 

[Sens Rule]

It still wasn't good enough to get the Rangers to the Playoffs.
If the player rles were reversed, do you think Vancover would have done better with Gretzky?

Yes - Gretzky was a better player than Messier in his last 2 years. In pretty much every year. Switch Messier and Gretzky and the team with Gretzky is better.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

IMO the biggest free agent signing bust was the Rangers signing Theo Flurey. That guy was given a boat load of Money & did nothing on the ice. Off the ice he was a Disaster too.

In 224 games with the Rangers, Fleury scored 201 points. Yes he had his off ice issues, but to say he did nothing on the ice is another untrue statement. Fleury would likely have finished in the top-10 in league scoring in 2000-01 if he didn't miss 20 games.

 

[The Thomas J.*]

In 224 games with the Rangers, Fleury scored 201 points. Yes he had his off ice issues, but to say he did nothing on the ice is another untrue statement. Fleury would likely have finished in the top-10 in league scoring in 2000-01 if he didn't miss 20 games.

I saw him play everyday, he did almost nothing!, Yea he got alot oaf assists, his job was to score goals, the 201 points he scored where very over inflated. He would always put up a couple of points during Garage time when a game was out of reach.
thos Ranger teams form 97 to the lock out just weren't that good, it was painfull to watch, PAINFULL!

 

[The Thomas J.*]

That's a ridiculous statement. Gretzky led the Rangers in scoring in all three of his seasons in New York, even in his final season when his bad back rendered him far less effective.

The stats?

Gretzky's point totals in his final three seasons with the Rangers: 97-90-62.

Messier's point totals in his final four seasons with the Rangers: 67-23-40-43.

Good thing we looked at the stats.

Yea.....somthing I should have done before I posted. One thing about the 97-98 season, we would have made the playoffs if Lafontaine did not get knocked out By his own player. It all came apart after that.

I would have rather kept Messier & parted with Gretzky, but whatever its done now, I cant Believe its been 10 years this July.

 

[The Thomas J.*]

Wayne Gretzky led team in scoring for every year he was there. 9 goals yeah, but 53 assists too...

if we played a defensive game like The Devils did, that would have been great but we SUCKED SO BADLY that 62 points really just shows how bad we were.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

Messier was signed to play hockey and provide leadership.

He somehow thought he was being signed to be the GM.

His period in Vancouver was a disgrace. Cozied up to the owner, took a little over a month for him to get the GM and coach fired. Recommended the hiring of Keenan. Intentionally divided the dressing room and influenced the trading of any popular players, especially any friends of the former captain Linden. Was one of the biggest factors in turning what was a mediocre team when he arrived into a complete circus and one of the biggest joke franchises in the league.

Told Canuck fans a 56-point season was a great success. Jumped around like he won the Stanley Cup after scoring a goal in New Jersey to make the score 8-1 Devils.

And the biggest thing was that his effort level here was an absolute joke. Collected $20 million to float around the neutral zone and barely break a sweat. His effort defensively was the worst I've ever seen from an NHL player - and that includes guys like Bure. Simply wouldn't move his feet unless we had the puck and it was moving up ice.

Most arrogant player I've ever seen, most selfish player I've ever seen, worst display of leadership I've ever seen. If I saw him walking down the street today, I'd probably spit on him for pocketing my hard-earned money that I spent on tickets while putting in the most disgraceful effort possible and 'leading' the team to the worst period in franchise history. And probably 90% of Canuck fans feel that way, for damn good reason.

He's an all-time great based on what he accomplished from 79-94, but those accomplishments clearly went to his head past that point and turned him into a guy who was nothing but a cancer on an organization.

You didnt watch Naslund play until this year I guess. Messier played hurt in Vancouver many times and while he did do total ********* things off the ice he still gave an honest effort out there, which is more than many other Vancouver players did.

 

[Sonny Lamateena]

Messier was supposed to lead the Canucks to Cups, not tear the team apart and lead them to nothing but lottery draft picks.

I think this is primary reason some Vancouver fans hate Messier so much, when they signed him they believed that was all it was going to take to win the cup. The truth of the matter is the Canucks had peaked in 94 when they lost the cup final and were on steady decline which continued until Messier's last year when they started to rise again.

1994 2nd in Pacific, Lose in Stanley Cup Finals.
1995 2nd in Pacific, Lost in Conference Semifinals
1996 3rd in Pacific, Lost in Conference Quarterfinals
1997 4th in Pacific, Did not qualify for playoffs
Messier signs
1998 7th in Pacific, Did not qualify
1999 4th in Northwest, Did not qualify
2000 3rd in Northwest, Did not qualify
Messier leaves
2001 3rd in Northwest, Lost in Conference Quarterfinals

The Canucks wanted Messier to duplicate what he did in New York, was this realistic considering his age? Probably not, but if thats your plan then you have to be committed to it even through the bumps in the road. Just adding Messier to a team on a decline doesn't make it a champion. In 1991 The year before Messier was traded to New York the Rangers finished second in their division and lost in the first round of the playoffs, only 3 players from that team remained the cup winning team 3 seasons later, the coach was also fired and Messier had a hand in all those changes. Players who were popular but either wouldn't or couldn't buy in to new team concept were moved and it payed off. Their was turmoil, the team missed the playoffs in 93 only to rebound with a Presidents trophy and Stanley Cup in 94.

Their is plenty of blame to go around in Vancouver and Messier regardless of injurys or players he played with, did not produce on the ice to the level that his contract would dictate. Beyond that most of the other blame Messier gets should be directed at ownership and the people above him.

 

[Askel]

You didnt watch Naslund play until this year I guess. Messier played hurt in Vancouver many times and while he did do total ********* things off the ice he still gave an honest effort out there, which is more than many other Vancouver players did.

Messier played like **** in Vancouver. He got linden and gelinas traded cause he didnt like them . Recommended Keenan as coach GM.

Nasund is the best player since Bure to play for the Canucks, sure hes not a great defensive player but he was great offensevly. Maybe you should watch some old messier game tapes from his Canuck days, he sucked.

 

[Sonny Lamateena]

Messier played like **** in Vancouver. He got linden and gelinas traded cause he didn't like them . Recommended Keenan as coach GM.

The moment Messier was signed Trevor Linden started sulking, he was no longer the man and he didn't like it. Immediately the media started pestering him about what he would do with the captaincy, he consulted a bunch of people including Messier and was told by all to do what he thought was best. Prior to the season Linden displayed his courage giving up the captaincy, he said the reason he did it was if the Canucks didn't win he would be blamed. So Linden remained in the locker room sulking, dividing the room until Mike Keenan traded him for Todd Bertuzzi, Bryan McCabe, and a pick that became Jarkko Ruutu.

 

[VanIslander]

The moment Messier was signed Trevor Linden started sulking, he was no longer the man and he didn't like it. Immediately the media started pestering him about what he would do with the captaincy, he consulted a bunch of people including Messier and was told by all to do what he thought was best. Prior to the season Linden displayed his courage giving up the captaincy, he said the reason he did it was if the Canucks didn't win he would be blamed. So Linden remained in the locker room sulking, dividing the room until Mike Keenan traded him for Todd Bertuzzi, Bryan McCabe, and a pick that became Jarkko Ruutu.

This is very wrong.

Linden took it with great class. He did not sulk. Keenan is the bad guy in that story.

 

[Askel]

The moment Messier was signed Trevor Linden started sulking, he was no longer the man and he didn't like it. Immediately the media started pestering him about what he would do with the captaincy, he consulted a bunch of people including Messier and was told by all to do what he thought was best. Prior to the season Linden displayed his courage giving up the captaincy, he said the reason he did it was if the Canucks didn't win he would be blamed. So Linden remained in the locker room sulking, dividing the room until Mike Keenan traded him for Todd Bertuzzi, Bryan McCabe, and a pick that became Jarkko Ruutu.

This is BS.

 

[Sonny Lamateena]

This is BS.

Read this book, it documents the whole thing including a quote from Linden. http://www.amazon.ca/Messier-Jeff-Z-Klein/dp/0770429084

 

[rmchahn]

So after reading this thread, its safe toi say there will not be a Messier jersey retirement Night Any time soon??

Wasn't no. 11 already retired for the late Wayne Maki? Was the number unretired for Messier?

 

[Askel]

Read this book, it documents the whole thing including a quote from Linden. http://www.amazon.ca/Messier-Jeff-Z-Klein/dp/0770429084

From Amazon:
Unfortunately, neither Messier nor anyone in his family agreed to be interviewed for Klein's book, so fans will have to wait to find out if Messier agrees. Yet Klein, a writer for the New York Times Magazine, still brings plenty of colour and a knack for telling details, especially in regards to Messier's career in New York, subsequent rise in celebrity, and troubled stint with the Vancouver Canucks.

Couldnt care less what this guy has to say about Messier. I heard interviews with guys who was in that lockerromm when Kennan/Messier was running the Show. Of course Linden didnt like Messier the guy took his captainicy away from the team he loved. But Messier played like **** as a canuck and no rangerfan who writes a book can change that.

 

[The Thomas J.*]

This is very wrong.

Linden took it with great class. He did not sulk. Keenan is the bad guy in that story.

Every story I ever heard about this Linde/Messier Situation than & now was While Linden gave up The Captaincy, he wasn't thrilled about it, & when he was traded, he Killed everyone in the press, Messier Keenan, Burke etc....

The linden Trade worked out pretty good for Vancover anyway.

 

[Sonny Lamateena]

From Amazon:
Unfortunately, neither Messier nor anyone in his family agreed to be interviewed for Klein's book, so fans will have to wait to find out if Messier agrees. Yet Klein, a writer for the New York Times Magazine, still brings plenty of colour and a knack for telling details, especially in regards to Messier's career in New York, subsequent rise in celebrity, and troubled stint with the Vancouver Canucks.

Couldnt care less what this guy has to say about Messier. I heard interviews with guys who was in that lockerromm when Kennan/Messier was running the Show. Of course Linden didnt like Messier the guy took his captainicy away from the team he loved. But Messier played like **** as a canuck and no rangerfan who writes a book can change that.

I agree with you on one point, Messier played poorly as a Canuck and he did not earn his contract. If Canuck fans want to hate him for that, its totally fair. However as far as the rest of Canuck urban legends, Messier did not take Linden's captaincy, Linden gave it away, so if that upsets you, hate Linden. If the size of Messier's contract upsets you, if the fact he was given number 11 upsets you, if the fact he was involved in player personnel changes and coaching changes upsets you blame John McCaw and the Vancouver Canucks organization. Thats who made those decisions and thats who is responsible.

 

[The Thomas J.*]

I agree with you on one point, Messier played poorly as a Canuck and he did not earn his contract. If Canuck fans want to hate him for that, its totally fair. However as far as the rest of Canuck urban legends, Messier did not take Linden's captaincy, Linden gave it away, so if that upsets you, hate Linden. If the size of Messier's contract upsets you, if the fact he was given number 11 upsets you, if the fact he was involved in player personnel changes and coaching changes upsets you blame John McCaw and the Vancouver Canucks organization. Thats who made those decisions and thats who is responsible.

The Situation with McCaw had bad Karma written all over it, Seeing McCaw's window on TV so upset was rough.