Messi vs. Ronaldo

[Maestro84]

Also, the theory that Ronaldo's international resume significantly trumps Messi's is a big myth. Messi has never scored a goal in the knocout rounds at the WC, but neither has CR7. CR7 has just one more career WC goal than Leo despite Messi being benched for much of the 2006 WC. Besides his outburst against Spain last year, the only nations Ronaldo was scoring WC goals against was versing far inferior teams such as Iran, USA, Morroco and North Korea (LOL). Additionally, the one Euro Cup Portugal won, Ronaldo wasn't even playing in the finals and overall, he was far from the best player in the tournament prior to the finals. It’s also worth noting that Portugal would not have advanced past the group stages under traditional rules.

Messi also won a tourney golden ball in both Copa America and the WC while leading his team to multiple finals; Ronaldo on the other hand, has yet to win an individual award in international play, and his best result in at the WC is a fourth place finish and he's only made it out of the rd of 16 once, compared to three times by Messi. Furthermore, Messi-led teams have also never failed to qualify for knockouts in both Copa Americas and WCs, while a CR7-led squad lost in group stages to the god damn USA in 2014.

They've also both saved their nation from failed WC qualification, as both Messi and Ronaldo scored hat-tricks against Ecuador in 2017 and Sweden in 2013, respectively, to single handily drag their nation into the tournament.

There's zero doubt that they're both once in a lifetime talents and they've both set countless records over the years and are bound to break even more going forward, but Messi is simply the better and greater player imo

 

[Ceremony]

I can't believe Ronaldo keeps on credit for winning the Euro over Messi ACTUALLY performing in Copa America and WC.

Defining image of Ronaldo in international competition:



Defining image of Messi in international competition:

 

[Panteras]

but why do you continue to belittle them time and time again whenever it's mentioned or you bring them up any chance you get? Because honestly you do...they won it , end of story, however you think they played or should have played etc. They still had to park the bus for an entire tournament. They did it. They won. It's in the record books and they accomplished it. You can't take it away from them as much as you'd like. Ronaldo was also injured IN the match. He was part of the team for all other games. Even then he was in the bench providing moral support. Anyway, don't want to hijack this thread but of course you want to diminish the fact that Ronaldo has an Euro Cup and try as you may he does and Messi doesn't have a Copa America. Sorry.

 

[Fred McCarthy]

Defining image of Ronaldo in international competition:



Defining image of Messi in international competition:

Whose going to listen to a guy who doesn't like Joe Salic

 

[les Habs]

If I had to play a final tonight for everything I hold dear in this life, I’d choose Ronaldo.

Ummm, and what has Ronaldo exact done in Finals? Here is Messi:

-Never lost a CL Final in three appearances, including against Ronaldo.
-Never played badly in a CL Final in three appearances.
-Scored in two CL Finals, including a match-winner, and his shot that Buffon spilled rebounded to Suarez in the third resulted in a goal.
-Very likely the best player in Copa del Rey Finals ever scoring in 6 of 8 Finals, all of which he won, including multiple spectacular goals that no current player would ever score. Should end up in the top 5 Copa del Rey goalscorers ever despite regularly not being selected for early round matches.

 

[maclean]

Nobody will ever satisfactorily explain to me why Ronaldo has the reputation of being clutch when anyone with eyes has seen him completely disappear time and time again. The only plausibility for why people see that is because Messi has humility and will come out and take the blame for things even when it wasn't his fault, whereas Ronaldo's ego never stops firing. So actually "clutch" just means making up poor excuses for one's mistakes.

 

[Evilo]

but why do you continue to belittle them time and time again whenever it's mentioned or you bring them up any chance you get? Because honestly you do...they won it , end of story, however you think they played or should have played etc. They still had to park the bus for an entire tournament. They did it. They won. It's in the record books and they accomplished it. You can't take it away from them as much as you'd like. Ronaldo was also injured IN the match. He was part of the team for all other games. Even then he was in the bench providing moral support. Anyway, don't want to hijack this thread but of course you want to diminish the fact that Ronaldo has an Euro Cup and try as you may he does and Messi doesn't have a Copa America. Sorry.

It makes absolutely ZERO sense that you consider Ronaldo to have a better international resume than Messi because of that flukey win in which he played zero part (moral support, seriously?).
I don't care Portugal won. Bad image for football, but then again, the whole tournament was boring, so it makes sense.
You won't ever see me give credit to Ronaldo for that EC win. Ever. Charisteas or Zagourakis did more to win a Euro than Ronaldo.
You can bring that final as much as you want, Messi has a better international career than Ronaldo.

 

[sdf]

Ronaldo has f***ing ego which is mush bigger than his actuall skill, i sick of that moron

 

[koyvoo]

Portugal didn't park the bus only against France.
So again, WTF are you talking about?
They parked the bus in EVERY SINGLE GAME.
Just like Greece in 04. Flukiest tournament win ever.

If you want to blame that on me being sore of France defeat you couldn't be more wrong. But that's obviously easier than to discuss the ineptitude of Portugal during that tournament.

That’s not true. They only clearly parked the bus for one, yes one game.

In the group stage they dominated all three games in possession and shot attempts and we’re probably one of the unluckiest tournaments teams not get a win in three group games. They had upwards of 70+ percent possession and dwarfed their opponents in shots.

The first knockout game be Croatia they bunkered.

The next game vs Poland? No. Not until the extra time. For the 90 mins, Portugal showed far more initiative.

The next game vs Wales? You can’t even be serious to suggest that one.

In the final vs France they lost their catalyst and the entire engine room of the national for the past decade+ after 8 mins. They were in shock and defended for over an hour but by the time extra time came around it turned. Portugal took more shot attempts and hit the target more than France did after the 90. These stats are all over the Internet.

They can only be accused of fully bunkering once vs Croatia and an argument can be made that did vs France. In France’s house. To say they bunkered every game is a false narrative driven from the fact that the first knockout game everyone looked forward to was Portugal-Croatia in the round of 16, and they put the world to sleep. But that game was the outlier and the stats can be found anywhere. Croatia had 0 shots on target the entire game.

Greece never had possession once over any opponent in 2004. Portugal held possession in 5 of the 7 games they played. Greece never had more shots on goal than their opponents once in 2004. Portugal outshot their opponents 6 out of 7 games in 2016.

 

[Evilo]

That’s not true. They only clearly parked the bus for one, yes one game.

The first knockout game be Croatia they bunkered.

The next game vs Poland? No. Not until the extra time.

In the final vs France they lost their catalyst and the entire engine room of the national for the past decade+ after 8 mins. They were in shock and defended for over an hour

Yup. Right.
Portugal parked the bus the whole tournament, even when they were playing teams with half their collective talent. It was embarrassing. Their goalie and Pepe won them the whole thing. They couldn't beat f***ing Hungary in a decisive game.

 

[Evilo]

Portugal won 1 out of 7 matches in regulation.
Portugal lead on the scoreboard for a whopping total of 73 minutes THROUGHOUT the tournament. That's including the several OT.

If Iceland hadn't tied Austria in the last seconds of their group game, they would have been out in the first round. In a weak group.

Ronaldo had a good game against Hungary, disapeared for the other 3 games and then scored and added a missed shot into an assist. Injured in the final, he was not even among the top 5 players of the tournament. After the Poland game he had 2 goals in his last 42 shots. To imagine he should get redit for that under average performance in that tournament is ludicrous.

In fact, I'm sorry for the Greece comparison. Greece played against excellent teams, had a rough way to the final, and beat all the favourites one after the other, without much talent on their team. Portugal had a top 5 talented team in that Euro and played minnow football through the tournament. They were digusting to watch.

 

[koyvoo]

Yup. Right.
Portugal parked the bus the whole tournament, even when they were playing teams with half their collective talent. It was embarrassing. Their goalie and Pepe won them the whole thing. They couldn't beat ****ing Hungary in a decisive game.

The stats say you’re wrong. You don’t bunker having 70+% possession and doubling opponents shots and shot attempt totals.

They were so unlucky in the group stage. YouTube the highlights of that Hungary game and see Hungary score two of the most deflected goals possible. They completely dominated all three group stage opponents by every offensive metric.

 

[Evilo]

Really?
Look at the stats I gave you.
Those don't tell your story.

 

[koyvoo]

Really?
Look at the stats I gave you.
Those don't tell your story.

Yes. One out of seven. Without context it’s deceiving. They were one of the most unlucky group stage teams I’ve ever seen in a tournament. Peru had a similar experience in this past summers World Cup in that they were so positive but the results didn’t come.

If you play those group games again with the way Portugal dominated, they get 7-9 pts nine out of ten times.

This is like the hockey analytics guys who look at numbers and don’t watch the games to put those numbers into context.

 

[Evilo]

Yes. One out of seven. Without context it’s deceiving. They were one of the most unlucky group stage teams I’ve ever seen in a tournament. Peru had a similar experience in this past summers World Cup in that they were so positive but the results didn’t come.

If you play those group games again with the way Portugal dominated, they get 7-9 pts nine out of ten times.

This is like the hockey analytics guys who look at numbers and don’t watch the games to put those numbers into context.

That's not the only stat I gave.
They had an easy group. A late goal by Iceland put them through. They had one tough game until the final but bunkered their way with a single win.

 

[Evilo]

Oh and I watched the games thank you.

 

[Evilo]

Heck you managed to say they parked the bus one game and in the same post gave three games where they did it. Including one against inferior opponents.

 

[koyvoo]

Look at the group ranks at the start of the tournament.

Iceland and Austria were rated higher than any team in France’s group. Or were Albania and Romania better at the time?

And they played Croatia before they played France. A Croatia who had just beat Spain to elevate themselves among the tournament favourites and who would go on to a World Cup final two years later. So France wasn’t their first tough game.

I believe you did watch the games but you’re talking like someone who didn’t. It’s like the hockey guys who stat watch with no context.

“Oh yeah, they drew their 3 group games”. That’s it. No context on how they were so dominant yet unlucky in those games. That’s what the hockey stats guys do.

 

[Evilo]

France has an easy, way, who said the contrary?
Did they park the bus?
No, they didn't.

Yes I said first tough game before the final. Croatia. That's it. Rest was easy.

 

[Maestro84]

Look at the group ranks at the start of the tournament.

Iceland and Austria were rated higher than any team in France’s group. Or were Albania and Romania better at the time?

And they played Croatia before they played France. A Croatia who had just beat Spain to elevate themselves among the tournament favourites and who would go on to a World Cup final two years later. So France wasn’t their first tough game.

I believe you did watch the games but you’re talking like someone who didn’t. It’s like the hockey guys who stat watch with no context.

“Oh yeah, they drew their 3 group games”. That’s it. No context on how they were so dominant yet unlucky in those games. That’s what the hockey stats guys do.

I'm not saying Portugal was undeserving of winning the Euro Cup, but that shouldn't be the end all be all reason to put Ronaldo above Messi from an international level, as that'd be a very casual and black/white way of evaluating them. Winning these trophies are a team achievment and Portugal proved that by beating France in the finals with CR7 on the bench for all but like 10 mins of the entire game.

 

[koyvoo]

I'm not saying Portugal was undeserving of winning the Euro Cup, but that shouldn't be the end all be all reason to put Ronaldo above Messi from an international level, as that'd be a very casual and black/white way of evaluating them. Winning these trophies are a team achievment and Portugal proved that by beating France in the finals with CR7 on the bench for all but like 10 mins of the entire game.

Believe me, I’m not one who gives weight in this debate to national team success, I only got into the Euro 2016 conversation because of the false narratives brought up. I’m imagining sitting down with anyone watching those three group games and having the person suggesting those were bunkering performance where the opponent was dwarfed, absolutely stomped in every offensive metric aside from the actual win.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

If Higuain scores in the final and Argentina win the CL and/or if Argentina beat Chile in the copa america finals does that make Messi the GOAT?

the NT achievement argument is bullshit.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

If Higuain scores in the final and Argentina win the CL and/or if Argentina beat Chile in the copa america finals does that make Messi the GOAT?

the NT achievement argument is bull****.

People are just dumb.... Someone even claimed here and in real life that if Argentina beat Germany in the final he'd be the best of all time. As if the result of a 120 minute game changes anything. I then asked what if that game went to shootout Messi missed his kick and Argentina still managed to win, what then? People only see what they want to.

 

[Cassano]

Throwback to the summer.

 

[The Abusement Park]

People are just dumb.... Someone even claimed here and in real life that if Argentina beat Germany in the final he'd be the best of all time. As if the result of a 120 minute game changes anything. I then asked what if that game went to shootout Messi missed his kick and Argentina still managed to win, what then? People only see what they want to.

Those 120 minutes now means he’s 120 minutes behind Pele in the GOAT race. Cmon it’s simple math.