Messi vs. Ronaldo

[The Abusement Park]

As a non-soccer follower, this thread makes me think of Gretzky and Lemieux. Both are all-time tallents but Messi is Gretzky and demonstrably superior in individual production, but Ronaldo/Lemieux is offensively talented enough at goal scoring that those who prefer him don't feel too crazy claiming he is better.

I think Ovi and Crosby is a better comparison.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

I'm a neutral. I don't it is a clear decision at all. Personally I like watching Ronaldo more just for his insane level of explosiveness, I have gotten tired of the debate though so my opinion is let's enjoy both why are they are here. But that's also easy to say as a neutral

Insane level of explosiveness? Messi on the ball is far more explosive than anyone. His solo runs circa 2006-2014 is unparalleled. Hell he still does it from time to time even at 30.

Here is unemotionally attached analysis. Messi is, and always was far better. Messi fans are far more insecure.

I believe that if Ronaldo scored 30 goals a year during that era rather than 50+, he’d have less hate. Just an arrogant Ibra. Great player, but no legit claim to best of the era, knowing his role, and quietly standing behind Messi in that line.

It’s like most other ways, so funny because they loathe each other, but 99% of Ronaldo and Messi hardcores are the exact same. Just like 99% of Barca and Madrid fans are exactly the same do you think their emotion would allow them to see what every other football fan sees?

Baseless. I just laugh at anyone who thinks otherwise really. IRL they're few in far between. Much less than it was in 2010 ish. Just takes time for people to see what they don't want to.

As a non-soccer follower, this thread makes me think of Gretzky and Lemieux. Both are all-time tallents but Messi is Gretzky and demonstrably superior in individual production, but Ronaldo/Lemieux is offensively talented enough at goal scoring that those who prefer him don't feel too crazy claiming he is better.

I think Ovi and Crosby is a better comparison.

I don't really like arguing on here about this because it's so painfully obvious and anyone who watches them REGULARLY or football in general agrees. Even the Madrid boys are quiet here because they know.

However, I'll say this and just leave it at that in comparing their goal scoring just because Ronaldo is seen as the more lethal goal scorer. Some say the best goal scorer of all time (LOL) but alas Ill rebuke it here. This is why the above 2 posts are quoted. We can all agree that Ronaldo's best attribute is goal scoring, he's seen as the goal scorer while Messi is the playmaker with scoring secondary to him right?

Cool here is there numbers since Ronaldo joined Madrid.

in the UCL+La liga one has 412 goals in 372 games played for a 1.10 goal per game

the other in the same 2 competitions the other has 416 goals in 385 games played for 1.08 goals per game.

I won't say who's who but I'll leave it up to the reader to decide if the difference of 4 more goals in 13 more games is justified in the claims above. keeping in mind this is just their goal scoring record where one is supposed to be clearly ahead that brings him to the others peer. When you factoring in the whole picture what what they bring... that's where the debate becomes ludicrous.

Sidenote, Please feel free to check my work. I sucks at maths. So could be off.

 

[Deficient Mode]

As a non-soccer follower, this thread makes me think of Gretzky and Lemieux. Both are all-time tallents but Messi is Gretzky and demonstrably superior in individual production, but Ronaldo/Lemieux is offensively talented enough at goal scoring that those who prefer him don't feel too crazy claiming he is better.

Can't make hockey comparisons based on production because the disparity in supporting cast between the best team and an average team is so much greater than in hockey, so much more goes on to lead to goals besides assists and shots than in hockey due to far longer periods of possession, and in general a star player is much more reliant on his teammates. Insane production is a far more reliable indicator of a great hockey player than a great soccer player. A player can be one of the 5 best goal+assist scorers in soccer and nowhere close to one of the 5 best players.

I have far more doubt that Cristiano is a top 2 player in his generation than I could have had for Lemieux.

 

[koyvoo]

Baseless. I just laugh at anyone who thinks otherwise really. IRL they're few in far between. Much less than it was in 2010 ish. Just takes time for people to see what they don't want to.

You quoted my saying that the Messi hardcores are more insecure and are saying it’s baseless. It would be hard for me to believe that anyone would peruse different social media platforms looking for troll accounts and such, created only to put down a player and not see that. Unless, the emotional investment in the issue I’ve highlighted is present. On twitter and Instagram, the Ronaldo troll accounts outnumber the Messi ones by st least 10-1. Again, someone without that blinding emotional investment looking at the specific content of such pages could only come to the conclusion that it’s based on insecurity.

 

[les Habs]

Cool here is there numbers since Ronaldo joined Madrid.

in the UCL+La liga one has 412 goals in 372 games played for a 1.10 goal per game

the other in the same 2 competitions the other has 416 goals in 385 games played for 1.08 goals per game.

I won't say who's who but I'll leave it up to the reader to decide if the difference of 4 more goals in 13 more games is justified in the claims above. keeping in mind this is just their goal scoring record where one is supposed to be clearly ahead that brings him to the others peer. When you factoring in the whole picture what what they bring... that's where the debate becomes ludicrous.

To your point about what each brings to the team, this doesn't even consider assists since people are so obsessed with stats. More than that though, it also doesn't consider their respective positions/roles over that period of time. And if you want more context, look at their respective shots taken during that period. I won't speculate as to the difference in shots taken, but off the top of my head it's probably quite considerable.

 

[koyvoo]

And, it’s clear the insecurity (now this insecurity is not warranted for someone like Messi, it’s the emotionally invested fanboys) is worse now than in 2013. In 2013 it was actually virtually non-existent because in their minds, as far as future historical record would show, it was then 4-1 in ballon dors and with the ages of both players in 2013, it would obviously end up being like 9-1 or 8-2 in Messi’s favour when all was said and done. Justice served.

The fact that 5 years later in went in the complete opposite direction, despite the fact that Messi is the greatest ever and Ronaldo is old, drives them bat shit, raging mad.

 

[Suiteness]

The fact that 5 years later in went in the complete opposite direction, despite the fact that Messi is the greatest ever and Ronaldo is old, drives them bat ****, raging mad.

Yup, and it's quite obvious by perusing any page from this thread.

I'll never understand rampant fanboyism, what do people get out of it?

 

[Deficient Mode]

And, it’s clear the insecurity (now this insecurity is not warranted for someone like Messi, it’s the emotionally invested fanboys) is worse now than in 2013. In 2013 it was actually virtually non-existent because in their minds, as far as future historical record would show, it was then 4-1 in ballon dors and with the ages of both players in 2013, it would obviously end up being like 9-1 or 8-2 in Messi’s favour when all was said and done. Justice served.

The fact that 5 years later in went in the complete opposite direction, despite the fact that Messi is the greatest ever and Ronaldo is old, drives them bat ****, raging mad.

Psssssst, The Ballon d'Or exists to fan the flames of the debate we're having in this thread to drive interest in the sport. No one cares about a story with an unchallenged king like Messi. If "justice" were served, someone from Real Madrid other than Cristiano would have won a Ballon d'Or in the years they won the Champions League.

 

[les Habs]

It's funny that someone would be clueless enough to suggest that just because someone engages in a discussion about Messi and Ronaldo and puts forth valid points and actual facts to support Messi being the better player they're somehow a rampant fanboy. And indeed, peruse just about any page from this thread and it will be abundantly clear who the rampant fanboys are. I mean look at @Suiteness ' posts. He doesn't have a horse in the race at all...

 

[koyvoo]

Psssssst, The Ballon d'Or exists to fan the flames of the debate we're having in this thread to drive interest in the sport. No one cares about a story with an unchallenged king like Messi. If "justice" were served, someone from Real Madrid other than Cristiano would have won a Ballon d'Or in the years they won the Champions League.

My main point in rejoining the conversation here was the fanboy aspect was brought up, and dismissed for one side, when they’re exactly the same. And, when it was suggested that as time passes, the debate will diminish. Which is ludicrous. And I don’t disagree necessarily with your point, but my point is that it’s moot. Because the farther into the future that you go, the less the eye test will be counted on, and fair or just or not, the stats and accolades will be what the meat of the debate will centre on.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

You quoted my saying that the Messi hardcores are more insecure and are saying it’s baseless. It would be hard for me to believe that anyone would peruse different social media platforms looking for troll accounts and such, created only to put down a player and not see that. Unless, the emotional investment in the issue I’ve highlighted is present. On twitter and Instagram, the Ronaldo troll accounts outnumber the Messi ones by st least 10-1. Again, someone without that blinding emotional investment looking at the specific content of such pages could only come to the conclusion that it’s based on insecurity.

Ok Freud... You called out Messi fans being insecure meaning you called me out. What response did you expect?

I'll try to keep it simple but the accusation is baseless because you CANNOT quantify insecurity. How does one even attempt to do so? Never mid the fact that you are generalizing fans over FB/Insta and what ever simpleminded platforms. I've read some of the most racist and straight up bizarre comments on the internet is that how we should judge people? If that's the case most should be institutionalized.

My main point in rejoining the conversation here was the fanboy aspect was brought up, and dismissed for one side, when they’re exactly the same. And, when it was suggested that as time passes, the debate will diminish. Which is ludicrous. And I don’t disagree necessarily with your point, but my point is that it’s moot. Because the farther into the future that you go, the less the eye test will be counted on, and fair or just or not, the stats and accolades will be what the meat of the debate will centre on.

It's not dismissed but your branding of ALL messi fans being more insecure is baseless as in there is no evidence to it. But please carry on your fine psychoanalysis of people through the internet.

 

[Havre]

I think the development of the vote says it all. If I remember correctly Ronaldo was actually in front at some point.

This thread was started after Ronaldo had scored those 3 goals some days earlier (the hype was ridiculous in the media scoring a penalty, given a goal by DDG and a great set-piece) and Messi's Argentina just lost 3-0. It was therefore an artificially close race for awhile. With Ronaldo's hattrick a distant memory Messi has gotten 15 out of the last 20 votes or something.

I could of course be random that many of the people voting early were on average more in favor of Ronaldo in general, but I doubt it.

 

[YNWA14]

There's a lot of things that are off. Make no mistake, Messi is a goalscorer, and relied on to score goals, just as much as Ronaldo is. He goes about it differently, and he's better at other aspects of the game, but goal scoring is just as much a part of his game. Does Messi shoot as much as Ronaldo? No, but their team structure and tactics are different, and Messi does always lead his team in shots by a fair margin (IIRC, and I haven't done the math on it but as a team Barcelona typically shoot less than Real Madrid, so Messi may actually take a higher percentage of his team's shots than Ronaldo does).

Nor do I, but then I'm not the one objecting when it's applied to Ronaldo.

I don't think it should be applied to either.

OK, so you said they weren't as complementary then. That's clutching at straws.

How it is clutching at straws? Busquets/Iniesta/Xavi has an argument for being the best midfield ever. Modric is the only one of Madrid's midfielders over the span that Ronaldo has been there that compares to them. Not only did they have incredible chemistry as a team but they also worked really well within Barcelona's structure and with Messi specifically.

-Kroos is overrated, but he's very complementary to Ronaldo. His being overrated doesn't change that and just because he's overrated doesn't mean he's chopper liver.
-Casemiro is very effective and to say he's nothing special is ridiculous. And however limited he may be is irrelevant because of his performances.

Again, irrelevant because they complement him and the entire team should be considered.

I've seen you talk plenty about many Madrid players being overrated and Barcelona players being underrated. So are you saying that you think that the Madrid teams that have Ronaldo on them have been better than the Barcelona teams that have had Messi? That doesn't even take into account the coaching, which again has been better (especially from a league perspective) with Barcelona.

I'm not having it both ways. I never said they were a better midfield and regardless of if they were or not it's irrelevant as again the entire team needs to be considered. On top of that, and to the first part of your post I'm replying to, I don't see why it would apply to one and not the other. And I can actually say that credibly here.

...and once again, I have never said that it should apply to one and not the other. However, people often talk like Madrid only has one goal and that's to get Ronaldo goals (which obviously isn't true), and act like Messi is somehow part of a team that doesn't use him as the focal point and he's not the main goal scorer (he absolutely is).

That doesn't change that Messi is the superior player to Ronaldo; that's clear, but people keep using really strange arguments to diminish Ronaldo's accomplishments when, for the most part, a lot of those same arguments used to detract from Ronaldo's stats also apply to Messi.

 

[robertmac43]

His solo runs circa 2006-2014 is unparalleled. Hell he still does it from time to time even at 30.

Oh Messi has amazing solo runs I won't deny that. But Ronaldo has unparalleled raw power.

 

[The Abusement Park]

That doesn't change that Messi is the superior player to Ronaldo; that's clear, but people keep using really strange arguments to diminish Ronaldo's accomplishments when, for the most part, a lot of those same arguments used to detract from Ronaldo's stats also apply to Messi.

But context.

 

[YNWA14]

Oh Messi has amazing solo runs I won't deny that. But Ronaldo has unparalleled raw power.

Something that people also overrate is dribbling. Not that it's not a great skill to have, and sometimes you can create moments of magic with it, but often enough you'll see Messi dribble 2 or 3 players and at the end when he looks up he has no passing option so he has to recycle it backwards. Dribbling is a very interesting part of soccer that is hard to really evaluate, IMO, in its effectiveness because the longer you have the ball at your feet, regardless of how good of a dribbler you are, the more time the other team has to snap back into shape or close down space, etc.

Just as an example, Messi is probably the best dribbler ever, or at least the most effective. He's generally direct with it, and he often enough creates chances or space for his teammates using it. We know this from watching. What people don't necessarily take into account is that even the best dribbler in the world hovers around a 60% or slightly less success rate over his career (rough eyeball math looking at successful vs. unsuccessful dribbles per 90). That means he's still losing the ball 40% or slightly more when he tries to take people on.

I think dribbling in general is overrated (Hazard is the one I find that exemplifies this the most) while 'space investigation' (we'll call it) is underrated in general. Not that it in any way makes up the gap in who is a better player between Ronaldo and Messi because Messi is certainly better at more than just dribbling, but Ronaldo is just better as a player than people give him credit for (and it's not just a 'raw power' thing, Ronaldo is an incredibly intelligent footballer).

 

[The Abusement Park]

Something that people also overrate is dribbling. Not that it's not a great skill to have, and sometimes you can create moments of magic with it, but often enough you'll see Messi dribble 2 or 3 players and at the end when he looks up he has no passing option so he has to recycle it backwards. Dribbling is a very interesting part of soccer that is hard to really evaluate, IMO, in its effectiveness because the longer you have the ball at your feet, regardless of how good of a dribbler you are, the more time the other team has to snap back into shape or close down space, etc.

Just as an example, Messi is probably the best dribbler ever, or at least the most effective. He's generally direct with it, and he often enough creates chances or space for his teammates using it. We know this from watching. What people don't necessarily take into account is that even the best dribbler in the world hovers around a 60% or slightly less success rate over his career (rough eyeball math looking at successful vs. unsuccessful dribbles per 90). That means he's still losing the ball 40% or slightly more when he tries to take people on.

I think dribbling in general is overrated (Hazard is the one I find that exemplifies this the most) while 'space investigation' (we'll call it) is underrated in general. Not that it in any way makes up the gap in who is a better player between Ronaldo and Messi because Messi is certainly better at more than just dribbling, but Ronaldo is just better as a player than people give him credit for (and it's not just a 'raw power' thing, Ronaldo is an incredibly intelligent footballer).

Fanboy.

 

[robertmac43]

Ronaldo and Messi because Messi is certainly better at more than just dribbling, but Ronaldo is just better as a player than people give him credit for (and it's not just a 'raw power' thing, Ronaldo is an incredibly intelligent footballer)

They are both amazing footballers and I enjoy watching both for different reasons. I was just commenting on the power because it's what I find more entertaining. Its the same reason I find Ovi more exciting to watch than Crosby.

 

[koyvoo]

Ok Freud... You called out Messi fans being insecure meaning you called me out. What response did you expect?

I'll try to keep it simple but the accusation is baseless because you CANNOT quantify insecurity. How does one even attempt to do so? Never mid the fact that you are generalizing fans over FB/Insta and what ever simpleminded platforms. I've read some of the most racist and straight up bizarre comments on the internet is that how we should judge people? If that's the case most should be institutionalized.



It's not dismissed but your branding of ALL messi fans being more insecure is baseless as in there is no evidence to it. But please carry on your fine psychoanalysis of people through the internet.

I believe somewhere I said that %99 of the fanboys are like this. Not all. On an individual level, it can never be proven for one person, but as a whole, you can see that it’s just about everyone.

It’s the same with Barca and Madrid “fans” in general. It can’t be proven that any one individual fan is a plastic gloryhunting, but you can say that %99 of their worldwide “fans” are, based on the fact that if either of these two teams go the next 10 years with no trophy for example, their “fanbases” would fall 10000%. Yes maybe the one individual would still be a lifelong fan if one of Madrid or Barca was in the 2nd division, but 99/100 def would not.

However, the main point is that whoever is that emotionally invested, on either side of the debate, will never, ever see it as being emotional analysis.

And, I’m not unique in my stance. Like I mentioned the social media wars on this subject. For the many, many raging mad, completely out of fan boys on either side, you get the odd comment saying - “I love them both, you idiots are just immature. Just appreciate the show you’re seeing” etc.

 

[koyvoo]

Look. It’s as simple as this. If you’re gonna to deny that the debate will rage, because you really think it shouldn’t, that is an emotional and not logical assessment

 

[Evilo]

Huh, no emotion for me. I feel if you watch them both, there shouldn't be any debate. I'm not denying there is one, as I said, I'm denying there should be one.

And again, I have no horse in this race and have no emotion engaged here.

 

[koyvoo]

To feel there shouldn’t be a debate, and not acknowledging that despite that fact, there is a debate, is more what I’m saying.

 

[cgf]

Something that people also overrate is dribbling. Not that it's not a great skill to have, and sometimes you can create moments of magic with it, but often enough you'll see Messi dribble 2 or 3 players and at the end when he looks up he has no passing option so he has to recycle it backwards. Dribbling is a very interesting part of soccer that is hard to really evaluate, IMO, in its effectiveness because the longer you have the ball at your feet, regardless of how good of a dribbler you are, the more time the other team has to snap back into shape or close down space, etc.

Just as an example, Messi is probably the best dribbler ever, or at least the most effective. He's generally direct with it, and he often enough creates chances or space for his teammates using it. We know this from watching. What people don't necessarily take into account is that even the best dribbler in the world hovers around a 60% or slightly less success rate over his career (rough eyeball math looking at successful vs. unsuccessful dribbles per 90). That means he's still losing the ball 40% or slightly more when he tries to take people on.

I think dribbling in general is overrated (Hazard is the one I find that exemplifies this the most) while 'space investigation' (we'll call it) is underrated in general. Not that it in any way makes up the gap in who is a better player between Ronaldo and Messi because Messi is certainly better at more than just dribbling, but Ronaldo is just better as a player than people give him credit for (and it's not just a 'raw power' thing, Ronaldo is an incredibly intelligent footballer).

Aimless dribbling is over-rated...waves at Marko Marin & Amin Younes...but dribbling with purpose & ingenuity has become under-rated by hardcore fans. Probably because it can so easily be dismissed as the kind of overhyped flashiness that suckers in casuals & ADD-millenials, but not true pseudo-experts.

Its importance is the part of the pep-revolution that people have seemingly ignored entirely. Yes, excellent pressing is key...and so is well-structured possession play & crisp passing, that lets you flow into the attacking third & probe the defense until they crack...but even Pep has always emphasized having the kind of purposeful dribblers that help a team consistently crack bus after bus more than off the ball movement or aerial prowess.

 

[cgf]

To feel there shouldn’t be a debate, and not acknowledging that despite that fact, there is a debate, is more what I’m saying.

It's a stupid debate though; as it shouldn't exist even if fanboys are keeping it alive, for now.

 

[YNWA14]

When has dribbling ever been underrated? Genuinely curious; I don't think I've ever seen someone who underrates it.

I also wasn't saying that it's not useful. It certainly is when used appropriately, and having a great dribbler is a huge boon to any team if they know how to use it properly. But in today's game, where time and space are becoming more and more limited, dribbling is often excessive and hurtful more than helpful (IMO of course) -- at least as it pertains to running with the ball at your feet. For me close control in tight spaces after getting to where you want to go off the ball is becoming much more important.