TSN: McKenzie's Take On The Habs

[Sorinth]

Price is a top-15 goalie but not top-5.
Subban is a top-30 dman but not top-15.
Plekanec is a op-30 center but not top-15

Price lead the league in wins 2 years ago, and has pretty consistently been one of the 10 best goalies. Whenever he has a good season he's a candidate for the Vezina. Can you really name 10 goalies that you think are better than Price? Can you even name 5?

There are only about 10 defenceman that are clearly better than Subban. Then there is a group of about 10-15 defenceman who could be ranked anywhere between 10-20 depending on how there season goes which PK is a part of.

Pacioretty finished in the top 15 for goal scoring by wingers.

If Markov is finally healthy he'll be another top 10-15 player

Plekanec is a top 30 center. And if we look at 2-way centers he's probably top 5.

Galchenyuk is the 8th best prospect according to HF.

So thats 4-5 guys that are among the best at their position league wide. And

Can you really say we lack top end talent?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Price lead the league in wins 2 years ago, and has pretty consistently been one of the 10 best goalies. Whenever he has a good season he's a candidate for the Vezina. Can you really name 10 goalies that you think are better than Price? Can you even name 5?

There are only about 10 defenceman that are clearly better than Subban. Then there is a group of about 10-15 defenceman who could be ranked anywhere between 10-20 depending on how there season goes which PK is a part of.

Pacioretty finished in the top 15 for goal scoring by wingers.

If Markov is finally healthy he'll be another top 10-15 player

Plekanec is a top 30 center. And if we look at 2-way centers he's probably top 5.

Galchenyuk is the 8th best prospect according to HF.

So thats 4-5 guys that are among the best at their position league wide. And

Can you really say we lack top end talent?

Price is definitely at or near the top for goalies. Subban is a legit number one blueliner and will improve but he's not top ten yet. That's about it.

Pacman could be very good and it's way too soon on Galchenyuk. Markov is a total question mark. Compare us to the Leafs and we're not much better. We've got better goaltending and our D is a little better but we're not that much better man.

Pleks being a top 30 center doesn't mean a whole lot. 30 other teams have centers in the top 30. That's not top end talent.

You want top end talent? Go look at Boston, Vancouver, Chicago, Pittsburgh... THAT's top end talent. We might get there if things go right but not right now.

 

[Sorinth]

Boston has Chara that is clearly better than anyone we have, but beyond that they have a bunch of good players that are at a similar level to us.

Vancouver have the Sedin's. Both Pacioretty and Cole scored more goals then anyone on their team.

Pittsburgh and Chicago, sure their top players are some of the best in the league but even with all that talent Chicago couldn't even get home ice advantage to start the playoffs last year and Pittsburg hasn't made it out of the first round for the last 2 years.

Maybe there's more to winning than a having couple of elite players.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Boston has Chara that is clearly better than anyone we have, but beyond that they have a bunch of good players that are at a similar level to us.

Vancouver have the Sedin's. Both Pacioretty and Cole scored more goals then anyone on their team.

Pittsburgh and Chicago, sure their top players are some of the best in the league but even with all that talent Chicago couldn't even get home ice advantage to start the playoffs last year and Pittsburg hasn't made it out of the first round for the last 2 years.

Maybe there's more to winning than a having couple of elite players.

Boston's got a Norris Trophy winner. They've already won a cup and have elite young players coming up to go with Chara.
Vancouver's got two Scoring Champions and have been to the finals.
Pittsburgh and Chicago have both won cups.

We were the 3rd worst team in the league last season...

 

[Miller Time]

Dude, you're one of the better posters on this board. You understand that it's about winning cups. I'm asking you to take the emotion out of this. Think about it for a second without worrying about the short term.

Look at our core right now going forward. I agree, it's a good core. I also agree that it might be good enough to contend in a few years. Not this year, not next but maybe (if we're lucky) two or three years from now. But it's a maybe... its not a sure thing with what we've got.

Even assuming that it is though, that's two or three years where we could be developing prospects that we could be trading for now. That's also two or three years where guys like Markov, Cole and Pleks will be drained of their diminishing returns.

If we got even late firsts for Cole and Subban + a good prospect for Pleks (which is realistic) then we'll probably fall in the standings this year (we may fall anyway) and get another top pick. Now add that to what we already have. How could we NOT be contenders in three years?

You're saying that we might be contenders with what we have in a few years and maybe you're right. I think if we cash in some assets now, we'd be ensuring ourselves of it. And all I care about are cups. That's it.

If we trade away all of our contributing vets, in 2-3 years we'd be what the oilers, isles & jackets have been... Loaded with young talent but not enough depth or leadership to be even a playoff team.

Bourque, Kaberle are obviously guys you move for virtually whatever...

Cole, who has a NTC, I'd move in the right deal, but not just for the sake of it & not for just a late first round pick (for every maxpac, there's a fisher or chipchura waiting in the weeds)

Gionta same as Cole... Both bring a quality work ethic/attitude element that has value beyond their declining production. Both are on premium contracts, but replacing them with ufas will give more of the same

Pleks is not a guy you move unless the offer is outlandishly high... He's everything you want out of a veteran top 6 player who is at that level just below elite, and he's shown repeatedly that he can effectively complement a star player. At 5m he's a perfect fit. Trading him for a mid-1st + prospect (unless its a taresenko or huberdeau, which ain't happening) would be a waste and hurt our contender building more than help.

Markov, if healthy & back to/close to normal.... Same as Pleks. If he's reduced significantly, we won't get much in return but moving his contract if we can would make sense.


I am and have always been about long term contender building, and have no emotional attachment to any one player.... Being extremist in either direction is unproductive.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

If we trade away all of our contributing vets, in 2-3 years we'd be what the oilers, isles & jackets have been... Loaded with young talent but not enough depth or leadership to be even a playoff team.

Bourque, Kaberle are obviously guys you move for virtually whatever...

Cole, who has a NTC, I'd move in the right deal, but not just for the sake of it & not for just a late first round pick (for every maxpac, there's a fisher or chipchura waiting in the weeds)

Gionta same as Cole... Both bring a quality work ethic/attitude element that has value beyond their declining production. Both are on premium contracts, but replacing them with ufas will give more of the same

Pleks is not a guy you move unless the offer is outlandishly high... He's everything you want out of a veteran top 6 player who is at that level just below elite, and he's shown repeatedly that he can effectively complement a star player. At 5m he's a perfect fit. Trading him for a mid-1st + prospect (unless its a taresenko or huberdeau, which ain't happening) would be a waste and hurt our contender building more than help.

Markov, if healthy & back to/close to normal.... Same as Pleks. If he's reduced significantly, we won't get much in return but moving his contract if we can would make sense.


I am and have always been about long term contender building, and have no emotional attachment to any one player.... Being extremist in either direction is unproductive.

My position isn't extreme. Extreme would be dealing away our young core.

Cole for a 1st? Absolutley. Anything less, the other club can kiss our butt.
Markov for a 1st? Absolutely.
Pleks for a good prospect or a top ten pick... yes.

Gionta we can keep for now.

That's not radical, it's practical. Obviously there are no trade clauses to work around and maybe it can't be done but that's what we should be looking at doing.

And making these deals isn't going to condemn us to be the Oilers for the next five years. And if that's the case, then man you are really out to lunch saying that we could be contenders in as soon as two years with what we have now.

I think if we make those trades we'll probably sink in the standings this year (we might anyway) and maybe we'll struggle next year. After that, it's a steady climb upwards with younger players in our arsenal. It makes perfect sense.

 

[Monctonscout]

My position isn't extreme. Extreme would be dealing away our young core.

Cole for a 1st? Absolutley. Anything less, the other club can kiss our butt.
Markov for a 1st? Absolutely.
Pleks for a good prospect or a top ten pick... yes.

Gionta we can keep for now.

That's not radical, it's practical. Obviously there are no trade clauses to work around and maybe it can't be done but that's what we should be looking at doing.

And making these deals isn't going to condemn us to be the Oilers for the next five years. And if that's the case, then man you are really out to lunch saying that we could be contenders in as soon as two years with what we have now.

I think if we make those trades we'll probably sink in the standings this year (we might anyway) and maybe we'll struggle next year. After that, it's a steady climb upwards with younger players in our arsenal. It makes perfect sense.

Under your scenario the young core would end up leaving because they'd want no part of a team showing no effort to win and just trying to stockpile young players.

Not even close to realisic scenario.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Under your scenario the young core would end up leaving because they'd want no part of a team showing no effort to win and just trying to stockpile young players.

Hey man, thanks. I needed that.

Love some of the crap you guys come up with.

We can't do it because the team can't afford it (team has 334 straight sellouts)
We can't do it because the young players will leave (I guess those contracts and RFA agreements mean nothing)
We can't do it because teams never do this. (Yes they do and even if they didn't it wouldn't matter.)
We can't do it because there are no guarantees. (There's no guarantee of anything but we've seen it work even on our own team.)
My favourite - We can't do it because Montreal has a responsibility for revenue sharing with the league to make the playoffs (I guess this doesn't apply to TO)

All straw man arguments that aren't real.

 

[Sorinth]

Boston's got a Norris Trophy winner. They've already won a cup and have elite young players coming up to go with Chara.

If Boston's elite young players that are coming up can benefit from having a 35 year old Chara. Then surely Montreal's young players/prospects would also benefit from guys like Gionta/Cole/Markov/Plekanec, no?

Simple question do you think having Cole around last season helped Max Pac become a better player, yes or no? Because it's just as important if not moreso that the young players we have right now reach their potential and become elite players then it is to simply get a couple of prospects that might turn into good players 5 years from now.

 

[TheGoalJudge]

Under your scenario the young core would end up leaving because they'd want no part of a team showing no effort to win and just trying to stockpile young players.

Not even close to realisic scenario.

Just like all the Oilers players left Edmonton right? Get real.

Is it the end of the world if we trade Gionta and Cole for a couple 1sts and some prospects and use the money to sign their replacements? Really?

Or are we closing our Stanley Cup window for this year!

 

[TheGoalJudge]

Price lead the league in wins 2 years ago, and has pretty consistently been one of the 10 best goalies. Whenever he has a good season he's a candidate for the Vezina. Can you really name 10 goalies that you think are better than Price? Can you even name 5?

There are only about 10 defenceman that are clearly better than Subban. Then there is a group of about 10-15 defenceman who could be ranked anywhere between 10-20 depending on how there season goes which PK is a part of.

Pacioretty finished in the top 15 for goal scoring by wingers.

If Markov is finally healthy he'll be another top 10-15 player

Plekanec is a top 30 center. And if we look at 2-way centers he's probably top 5.

Galchenyuk is the 8th best prospect according to HF.

So thats 4-5 guys that are among the best at their position league wide. And

Can you really say we lack top end talent?

Your evaluations of our players are, quite frankly, delusional. We have 4 or 5 guys that are the best at their position? So we basically have a top player at every position? Really?

 

[Monctonscout]

Just like all the Oilers players left Edmonton right? Get real.

Is it the end of the world if we trade Gionta and Cole for a couple 1sts and some prospects and use the money to sign their replacements? Really?

Or are we closing our Stanley Cup window for this year!

A whole bunch of them did.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

If Boston's elite young players that are coming up can benefit from having a 35 year old Chara. Then surely Montreal's young players/prospects would also benefit from guys like Gionta/Cole/Markov/Plekanec, no?

Not what I'm saying. I'm saying Chara is awesome now. They have Seguin who's awesome now. They have top end talent that we don't now and they have prospects coming up who are also highly touted like Hamilton. They are in great shape now and in the future. Rask is another guy who's been absolutely great and has been stuck behind the best goalie in the league.

Simple question do you think having Cole around last season helped Max Pac become a better player, yes or no? Because it's just as important if not moreso that the young players we have right now reach their potential and become elite players then it is to simply get a couple of prospects that might turn into good players 5 years from now.

If Markov had been here last year you'd have asked the same question about his effect on PK. He wasn't here and PK still developed and progressed as the season went along. He's now the best blueliner we have and a legit 1st paiging guy in the NHL.

You have your answer.

And btw, yes I think vets can help. I'm not suggesting we completely empty our team of them. I'm saying we take three of them who have value and maximize the returns. They are worth more in what they can bring to the team in terms of young talent than in experience. We'll still have Gionta, Gorges and others. We don't need all these guys. I'm pretty sure Max knows how to tie his own skates.

 

[TheGoalJudge]

A whole bunch of them did.

Which one of Hall, Eberle, Yakupov, RNH, hell even Gagner and Hemsky left again? FFS, even Ryan Smyth returned to the team.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Which one of Hall, Eberle, Yakupov, RNH, hell even Gagner and Hemsky left again? FFS, even Ryan Smyth returned to the team.

Justin Schultz decided to sign there as well...

 

[TheGoalJudge]

Justin Schultz decided to sign there as well...

Oh you mean a young player actually wanted to play for them because he would get playing time and not play on the 4th line for 2 years like Eller did behind SCOTT GOMEZ?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Oh you mean a young player actually wanted to play for them because he would get playing time and not play on the 4th line for 2 years like Eller did behind SCOTT GOMEZ?

Yup. But why let a little lie get in the way of a good excuse...

Again, straw man crap.

 

[Sorinth]

Not what I'm saying. I'm saying Chara is awesome now. They have Seguin who's awesome now. They have top end talent that we don't now and they have prospects coming up who are also highly touted like Hamilton. They are in great shape now and in the future. Rask is another guy who's been absolutely great and has been stuck behind the best goalie in the league.

Boston is still unlikely too win the cup in the next 3 years, so shouldn't they trade Chara for a bunch of elite young players/prospects/picks so that they maximize their chance at a cup maybe even multiple cups in 4-5 years?

And if Seguin is an awesome and elite talent right now, then so are Pacioretty and Subban who have accomplished just as much as he has in the NHL.

Out of curiosity how many vets do you think we should have in the top-6 to help out the young players?

 

[Sorinth]

Your evaluations of our players are, quite frankly, delusional. We have 4 or 5 guys that are the best at their position? So we basically have a top player at every position? Really?

Subban, Pacioretty and Markov if he healthy and back to form (Yes that's a big IF) would be on 90% of the teams top lines.

Plekanec would probably be the same as he is here, be on the number 2 line but have as much ice time as the top line.

The thing to remember is the really good teams also have 4-5 top end players. They generally also have better 2nd and 3rd tier players.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Boston is still unlikely too win the cup in the next 3 years, so shouldn't they trade Chara for a bunch of elite young players/prospects/picks so that they maximize their chance at a cup maybe even multiple cups in 4-5 years?

And if Seguin is an awesome and elite talent right now, then so are Pacioretty and Subban who have accomplished just as much as he has in the NHL.

Out of curiosity how many vets do you think we should have in the top-6 to help out the young players?

Boston has as good a chance at winning the cup as any team in the league dude. They could easily win it this year and they have a better team now than they did two years ago when they actually won it.

So wtf are you talking about?

Are you trying to compare us to them because we've been a bubble team forever now and finished 15th in the East last year. Do you not see the difference here?

 

[Sorinth]

Boston has as good a chance at winning the cup as any team in the league dude.

So what odds do you give them to win the cup within the next 3 years?

I'm not trying to compare them to the habs. They are clearly better than us, but I don't think the gap is so big that we should trade 3-4 good players for picks/prospects in the hope that 5 years from now they might turn out to be equally good.

 

[Monctonscout]

Which one of Hall, Eberle, Yakupov, RNH, hell even Gagner and Hemsky left again? FFS, even Ryan Smyth returned to the team.

Basically 75% of their best players from the last time they made the playoffs...which is why they have been picking 1st for like the last 4 years.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

So what odds do you give them to win the cup within the next 3 years?

I'm not trying to compare them to the habs. They are clearly better than us, but I don't think the gap is so big that we should trade 3-4 good players for picks/prospects in the hope that 5 years from now they might turn out to be equally good.

They are legit contenders. That's all you can ask from your GM and I'd be thrilled to have that lineup. Anyone who knows anything about hockey would be thrilled to have that lineup and if you don't understand this I don't know what to tell you.

Basically 75% of their best players from the last time they made the playoffs...which is why they have been picking 1st for like the last 4 years.

Dude... just stop. You are embarassing yourself.

 

[Monctonscout]

Hey man, thanks. I needed that.

Love some of the crap you guys come up with.

We can't do it because the team can't afford it (team has 334 straight sellouts)
We can't do it because the young players will leave (I guess those contracts and RFA agreements mean nothing)
We can't do it because teams never do this. (Yes they do and even if they didn't it wouldn't matter.)
We can't do it because there are no guarantees. (There's no guarantee of anything but we've seen it work even on our own team.)
My favourite - We can't do it because Montreal has a responsibility for revenue sharing with the league to make the playoffs (I guess this doesn't apply to TO)

All straw man arguments that aren't real.

You should just go submit your name to be an NHL GM and win tons of cups, you're just too smart for the hockey world. I'm tired of arguing logicallyw ith you, facts don't seem to matter so I won't bother.

 

[Monctonscout]

They are legit contenders. That's all you can ask from your GM and I'd be thrilled to have that lineup. Anyone who knows anything about hockey would be thrilled to have that lineup and if you don't understand this I don't know what to tell you.

Dude... just stop. You are embarassing yourself.

How am I embarassing myself...DUDE? Edmonton has 2 players left from when their slide started in 05-06 plus Smyth who came back to finish his career. So if the Habs were to follow that plan it would mean 90+% of the current roster gone and no playoffs till 2019-2020 or 2020-2021. Any GM would be long gone before then.


You're the one with the hairbrain ideas out from left field or beyond.