and Yzerman made it out of the first round twice in his first 11 years...
Doesn't matter. Even when losing and surrounded by the DeadThings he was still a star. He didn't need anyone to show him how to be a star. Ditto with Lemieux and tons of others...
And Yzerman didn't have Carey Price as a teammate not to mention Subban etc...
go figure that the Wings started their run of dominance in the mid-90's with veteran guys like Coffey, Ciccarelli, Fetisov & Vernon playing big roles.
Of course, Yzerman was 29 by then, but if you ever hear him speak about his hockey education, he credits many of those veteran players with helping him mature & become the kind of leader he needed to be to be a winner.
Absolutely. You need a team to win. Not sure what your point is here though.
Yzerman developed just fine... it wasn't his fault that he was on a bad team. Dealing Pleks, Cole and Markov isn't going to kill this team for years and years man. It will just accelerate the rebuild and help us down the road.
The kids we get now in three years will be better than those vets. And by then we'll have Price, Subban, Max, Gorges and tons of others who will be vets.
What's the problem here?
Big difference btw coming in and scoring lots of points, and coming in and becoming the kind of team leader that "carries" a team into championship territory... Case in point, Alex Ovechkin.
It's not just about developping on the stat sheet, it's about becoming a winner... and not every good player is a "winner" (just like not every player who wins a ring is a key part of that team).
The way to become a winner is to start with the best talent.
And you're talking like EVERY single one of our players will be in diapers and that's not the case.
It's not just about having a veteran player around, or even a "good vet" from a locker room pov. It's important to have some veteran leadership/maturity in players who contribute in larger roles.
We already have those guys. We're not going to deal every vet man. We've got Gorges, we've got Gionta we've got Price... Yeah, Carey Price. Believe it or not even though he's only 25 he's been in the league five years.
We can deal tons of vets away and we'll still have some old guys.
Again, young talent for us at this stage is more important than experience.
not "necessary", but important... and probably more now then ever as the current generation of young people/athlete were raised with far less instruction/maturity than previous generations... talent & skill is one thing, but being able to lead a group and make those around you better/elevate their games is a whole other skill.
Teams with star players with that kind of ability, are the ones who make the most of their opportunities. you want to build a culture in your team whereby the young talent you assemble learns who to excel in that way, not just in "getting mine".
There are tons of teams that started in shambles and built winners. You're overplaying this big time.
And again, we already have vets and they'll be older by the time the prospects we get now develop. Your argument is a non-starter.
now that argument getting a little silly...
would i trade Markov for Forsberg today? Probably yes... and I'd be shocked if the Capitals accepted.
Okay. Would you have dealt him last season for the pick before you knew it was Forsberg? Most said no. To me, that's crazy.
Markov is a huge ? to play a full season, let alone contribute anywhere close to where he used to.
I know. As I said IF the Caps consider themselves in the hunt and it pre-supposes Markov playing well. Markov could be great. He could also get hurt on his first shift...
Would i trade Plekanec for Forsber? Absolutely not. Forsberg looks good, but so have many young players yet to make their mark at the pro/NHL level. Plekanec is money in the bank, and is the kind of veteran leader who will rub off positively on any young player actually interested in learning (as the current camp observations with regards to Gally make abundantly clear).
Money in the bank?
For what? We're not winning this year or next. Meanwhile Pleks gets older. Best we can hope for is that we're contenders in three years (we hope) and by that time Forsberg might even be a better player than Pleks. And in five years he definitely will be.
So again... not sure why you wouldn't do this unless you don't believe in Forsberg (which is fine.) Like I said, I'd defer to Timmins to decide on which prospects to go after.
If you made every trade based on speculation of "who will be better in 2-3 years", you'd be the Islanders or Oilers... stocked with young talent, which is nice, but devoid of "ready" talent.
Except that this isn't the case and you know it. We have Subban, Max, Emelin, Price, Galchenyuk etc...
By that logic, what stops you from trading talented 24-25 -26 year old players for the "next great prospect"?
Math.
The fact is that I don't see us being legit contenders for at least another three years. In three years that 24 year old would be 27. Perfect. In three years Pleks will be 34... we'd be better off with a player who would be 21.
Make sense? It should.
no use taking an argument into absurd territory, does nothing but give the appearance of grasping at straws...
and for the most part, I do agree with long-term vision in building a roster, but extremmes in either direction are just as unproductive.
Not sure what you mean by extreme.
Was it extreme when I suggested Souray and Koivu for a young Bobby Ryan and some picks? Well, it's five years later and Ryan is in his mid 20s now. People said I was extreme back then too.
A few years ago I talked about Markov for JVR and somebody else suggested Claude Giroux... we were laughed out of the room. Well, how about now?
Do the math. It's simple mathematics man. Look at the age of these guys and add three years. Who's going to be better then? Who's going to be better in five years when we (really hope) that we're contenders.
And again, we lost Souray and then Koivu. The sky didn't fall. It won't fall if we deal these other players either. We'd be far better off in the long run.
I'm asking you to take emotion out of it and be practical. I've been proven right time and again. Hell, look at Rivet for the 1st that turned into Max. We should be making MORE of those kinds of deals. They won't all yield a Pacman but we'd still be better off.
And NOW is the time to do this. Actually the time to do this was 15 years ago but I'll settle for now.