TSN: McKenzie's Take On The Habs

[Lafleurs Guy]

You should just go submit your name to be an NHL GM and win tons of cups, you're just too smart for the hockey world. I'm tired of arguing logicallyw ith you, facts don't seem to matter so I won't bother.

And if we come in 15th again we're going to lose all our young players right?

Don't go away mad. Just go away...

 

[Monctonscout]

And if we come in 15th again we're going to lose all our young players right?

Don't go away mad. Just go away...

We may or we may not but it won't be because we trade away every veteran worth anything.

I don't see it, but it's a short season so anything can happen. Detroit looks like a lottery team tonight, their defense AHL calibre.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

We may or we may not but it won't be because we trade away every veteran worth anything.

I don't see it, but it's a short season so anything can happen. Detroit looks like a lottery team tonight, their defense AHL calibre.

So if we come in 15th for the 2nd year in a row our young players will only leave their signed contracts if we trade our vets. But if we don't trade our vets they'll stay...

?

Give it up.

 

[DAChampion]

Boston has Chara that is clearly better than anyone we have, but beyond that they have a bunch of good players that are at a similar level to us.

Vancouver have the Sedin's. Both Pacioretty and Cole scored more goals then anyone on their team.

Pittsburgh and Chicago, sure their top players are some of the best in the league but even with all that talent Chicago couldn't even get home ice advantage to start the playoffs last year and Pittsburg hasn't made it out of the first round for the last 2 years.

Maybe there's more to winning than a having couple of elite players.

Chicago's best player is Jonathan Toews. He missed ~50 games. Chicago is such a good team that when their best player missed 50 games they manage to come in 6th place.

 

[Monctonscout]

So if we come in 15th for the 2nd year in a row our young players will only leave their signed contracts if we trade our vets. But if we don't trade our vets they'll stay...

?

Give it up.

No but if we are still around 15th in 2 years guys like Subban Eller Pacioretty Price etc will want out, especially in this market.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

No but if we are still around 15th in 2 years guys like Subban Eller Pacioretty Price etc will want out, especially in this market.

So why wouldn't our vets want out now? This team is going nowhere... wouldn't they want to win a cup?

Please keep spinning, entertain us.

 

[DAChampion]

How am I embarassing myself...DUDE? Edmonton has 2 players left from when their slide started in 05-06 plus Smyth who came back to finish his career. So if the Habs were to follow that plan it would mean 90+% of the current roster gone and no playoffs till 2019-2020 or 2020-2021. Any GM would be long gone before then.


You're the one with the hairbrain ideas out from left field or beyond.

Edmonton partly fell into this rut because they were trying to make the playoffs.

This is the same Edmonton team that in the years following a Stanley Cup final signed Sheldon Sourray, Shawn Horcoff, et cetera to bad long-term contracts. They weren't trying to tank. They were trying to "win now", when they were in no position to do so, and that sealed the deal.

When you're not in a position to win now, and you try and win now, you end up with five years of losing or more. The same has been true of Toronto and Columbus.

Prediction: Calgary will now become the new Edmonton.

 

[DAChampion]

We may or we may not but it won't be because we trade away every veteran worth anything.

I don't see it, but it's a short season so anything can happen. Detroit looks like a lottery team tonight, their defense AHL calibre.

Detroit is a team in decline. Datsyuk and Zetterberg are getting older, and Lidstrom is retired, and they have hit no home runs on the UFA market. Within a few years they might be out of the playoff picture, they are following San Jose's path, but at least they got a cup along the way.

Detroit's players are a success, they won a cup, unlike San Jose. But unless they can hit a home run on the UFA market or in the draft, both of which are entirely possible, they will need to sell Datsyuk and Zetterberg soon and rebuild.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Edmonton partly fell into this rut because they were trying to make the playoffs.

This is the same Edmonton team that in the years following a Stanley Cup final signed Sheldon Sourray, Shawn Horcoff, et cetera to bad long-term contracts. They weren't trying to tank. They were trying to "win now", when they were in no position to do so, and that sealed the deal.

When you're not in a position to win now, and you try and win now, you end up with five years of losing or more. The same has been true of Toronto and Columbus.

Prediction: Calgary will now become the new Edmonton.

Yup I think you're right. But it will take a few years before they hit bottom. Iginla and Kipper will be enough to keep them mediocre for awhile.

Of course if they dealt Iggy and Kipper they'd accelerate the process tremendously but their ownership doesn't want this. Their GM apparently did want this but ownership wanted to go for 8th...

And now they have the pain of mediocrity to deal with. They're going to drag this out and it's not going to be pretty. Just like we did.

 

[Sorinth]

Chicago's best player is Jonathan Toews. He missed ~50 games. Chicago is such a good team that when their best player missed 50 games they manage to come in 6th place.

Toews played 59 games last season.

2 years ago our best player only played 7 games and we finished in 6th. Does that mean we are better then the Blackhawks? Didn't think so.

 

[DAChampion]

Toews played 59 games last season.

2 years ago our best player only played 7 games and we finished in 6th. Does that mean we are better then the Blackhawks? Didn't think so.

OK, I was wrong about the Blackhawks.

I think the Habs team of 2010-2011 that finished in 6th place was an very good team. However, in the subsequent offseason, it replaced Hamrlik and Wisniewski with Diaz and Emelin, and replaced Halpern with Engvist. Regression inevitably followed.

 

[Sorinth]

OK, I was wrong about the Blackhawks.

I think the Habs team of 2010-2011 that finished in 6th place was an very good team. However, in the subsequent offseason, it replaced Hamrlik and Wisniewski with Diaz and Emelin, and replaced Halpern with Engvist. Regression inevitably followed.

And that's the point. We we're a very good team, the GM gambled on Markov's health and lost. But we still have the majority of what made us that very good team in the first place. We are only 1 or 2 Hamrlik/Wisniewski quality players from being a very good again. Why would we want to rebuild?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

And that's the point. We we're a very good team, the GM gambled on Markov's health and lost. But we still have the majority of what made us that very good team in the first place. We are only 1 or 2 Hamrlik/Wisniewski quality players from being a very good again. Why would we want to rebuild?

Because the Hawks recently won a cup and our team has been in 8th place forever. Because the Hawks have Toews, Keith, Hossa and Kane who are better than any players we have. Not to mention the fact that we finished 15th out of 15 last year.

That's why.

 

[DAChampion]

And that's the point. We we're a very good team, the GM gambled on Markov's health and lost. But we still have the majority of what made us that very good team in the first place. We are only 1 or 2 Hamrlik/Wisniewski quality players from being a very good again. Why would we want to rebuild?

It's a completely different roster from the 2010-2011 team now. Aside from Hamrlik and Wisniewski (that's 9 million in cap space), we're also missing Cammalleri, Kostitsyn, Gill and all the almighty Mathieu Darche.

Let us move forward, not backwards.

 

[Sorinth]

Because the Hawks recently won a cup and our team has been in 8th place forever. Because the Hawks have Toews, Keith, Hossa and Kane who are better than any players we have. Not to mention the fact that we finished 15th out of 15 last year.

That's why.

When the Hawks won the cup they we're 2nd in the West and we're considered by many to be one of the deepest teams in the league. That offseason they lost a lot of their depth but kept their elite players. They've finished 8th and 6th since then, which is pretty much where we've been finishing year after year

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

When the Hawks won the cup they we're 2nd in the West and we're considered by many to be one of the deepest teams in the league. That offseason they lost a lot of their depth but kept their elite players. They've finished 8th and 6th since then, which is pretty much where we've been finishing year after year

Dude you're sitting there trying to compare us to the Hawks and Bruins. Both of those clubs are far better than we are.

We aren't going anywhere dude but nobody would be surprised if either of those teams won. Both have Norris winners on them, both have won cups and both have forwards that we can only dream of. Hell, Chicago has at least three (maybe four) forwards better than our best. Seguin is a superstar in waiting and the B's have balanced scoring throughout the lineup not to mention toughness everywhere.

Your problem is that you aren't able to objectively see that we're not all that great. Our lineup isn't much better than the Leafs dude. We've got Subban and we've got goaltending but it's a lot closer than you think. We're a hell of a lot closer to the Leafs than we are to the Bruins or Hawks.

 

[Sorinth]

It's a completely different roster from the 2010-2011 team now. Aside from Hamrlik and Wisniewski (that's 9 million in cap space), we're also missing Cammalleri, Kostitsyn, Gill and all the almighty Mathieu Darche.

Let us move forward, not backwards.

That's hardly completely different. A Gill is not that hard to acquire. So in essence
OUT - Cammalleri, Kostitsyn, Hamrlik and Wisniewski
IN - Cole, Bourque, Markov, Gorges

That's a fairly even trade off if Markov can get back to his old self. Which admittedly is a huge question mark.

 

[DAChampion]

That's hardly completely different. A Gill is not that hard to acquire. So in essence
OUT - Cammalleri, Kostitsyn, Hamrlik and Wisniewski
IN - Cole, Bourque, Markov, Gorges

That's a fairly even trade off if Markov can get back to his old self. Which admittedly is a huge question mark.

False comparison of the D.

The 2010-2011 D had Markov, Subban, Gorges, Hamrlik, Wisniewski;
The 2012-2013 D has Markov, Subban, Gorges;

You can argue that Markov was injured in 2010-2011, but there are injuries every year. It didn't need to be Markov, it could have been Hamrlik or Subban or Gorges. The point is that the 2010-2011 team was so good it could lose a top-4 dmen to injury and still have 4 top-4 dmen. Lose a top-4 dmen to injury from the 2012-2013 team and the team will be really bad.

I started following the Habs seriously, as in posting on boards and thus thinking about the situation in detail as opposed to being spoonfed by RDS, around 2007 or 2008. One thing I noticed is that every summer I saw the same argument, "next year when the Habs have no injures we will be a better team". I bought into it the first time, I was probably one of those people that thought the 2007-08 playoff elimination was due to Streit being injured. But eventually I noticed it was a ****** argument, because the same argument was being made every summer.

Here's the thing: there are injuries every single year. There will be injuries this year. It doesn't need to be Markov, in fact it probably won't be Markov, but either way our roster looks like last-place-worthy once you remove a whole lot of players.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

That's hardly completely different. A Gill is not that hard to acquire. So in essence
OUT - Cammalleri, Kostitsyn, Hamrlik and Wisniewski
IN - Cole, Bourque, Markov, Gorges

That's a fairly even trade off if Markov can get back to his old self. Which admittedly is a huge question mark.

Right...
IF Markov comes back.
IF Gionta and Pleks have great years.
IF Subban develops despite being out
IF Price has a great season
IF Cole repeats his career year

How about this... Price has a good but not great year. Subban is great, Markov isn't. Kaberle keeps being Kaberle. Cole is decent but not as good as last year.

Everything going right rarely happens. It's too much to expect all of these wonderful things to take place.

We're not that great a team right now man. Accept it.

 

[Sorinth]

Dude you're sitting there trying to compare us to the Hawks and Bruins. Both of those clubs are far better than we are.

We aren't going anywhere dude but nobody would be surprised if either of those teams won. Both have Norris winners on them, both have won cups and both have forwards that we can only dream of. Hell, Chicago has at least three (maybe four) forwards better than our best. Seguin is a superstar in waiting and the B's have balanced scoring throughout the lineup not to mention toughness everywhere.

Your problem is that you aren't able to objectively see that we're not all that great. Our lineup isn't much better than the Leafs dude. We've got Subban and we've got goaltending but it's a lot closer than you think. We're a hell of a lot closer to the Leafs than we are to the Bruins or Hawks.

I'm not trying to say we are as good as the Hawks or Bruins because we aren't. But if all it took was a few elite players then why has Chicago struggled so much in the regular season since their cup, why hasn't Pittsburgh made it out of the second round for 3 years, why has Washington never won anything.

Rebuilding by finishing in the bottom for years on end, just so that we can hope to get one cup while our stars on on their ELC and then loosing our depth because of the Cap and then being knocked out early year after year just doesn't seem like the smart choice for the habs right now

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I'm not trying to say we are as good as the Hawks or Bruins because we aren't. But if all it took was a few elite players then why has Chicago struggled so much in the regular season since their cup, why hasn't Pittsburgh made it out of the second round for 3 years, why has Washington never won anything.

Because winning the cup is hard. Because even if you build the best team in the league you still might not win a cup. You can ask Vancouver and Ottawa about that.

That doesn't mean its not worth building the best team you can.

And all three of those teams DID win a cup.

Rebuilding by finishing in the bottom for years on end, just so that we can hope to get one cup while our stars on on their ELC and then loosing our depth because of the Cap and then being knocked out early year after year just doesn't seem like the smart choice for the habs right now

Nobody is saying we have to finish last for years on end. READ the posts...

 

[Sorinth]

Right...
IF Markov comes back.
IF Gionta and Pleks have great years.
IF Subban develops despite being out
IF Price has a great season
IF Cole repeats his career year

How about this... Price has a good but not great year. Subban is great, Markov isn't. Kaberle keeps being Kaberle. Cole is decent but not as good as last year.

Everything going right rarely happens. It's too much to expect all of these wonderful things to take place.

We're not that great a team right now man. Accept it.

If all that happens we will likely be in 7th or 8th place, and win at most 1 round in the playoffs.

Every team needs the stars to align for them to win the cup. When Boston won, they barely squeaked by us, 3 OT wins. Had to go to Game 7 against T-Bay where the refs called a whopping 0 penalties which since T-Bay relied much more on special teams really helped the B's. They also didn't have to face Washington or Pittsburgh the two best regular season teams in the East. And in the finals Vancouver decided that they wouldn't retaliate and would instead try to draw penalties. The refs kept their whistles in their pocket and the rest is history.

 

[Sorinth]

False comparison of the D.

The 2010-2011 D had Markov, Subban, Gorges, Hamrlik, Wisniewski;
The 2012-2013 D has Markov, Subban, Gorges;

You can argue that Markov was injured in 2010-2011, but there are injuries every year. It didn't need to be Markov, it could have been Hamrlik or Subban or Gorges. The point is that the 2010-2011 team was so good it could lose a top-4 dmen to injury and still have 4 top-4 dmen. Lose a top-4 dmen to injury from the 2012-2013 team and the team will be really bad.

I started following the Habs seriously, as in posting on boards and thus thinking about the situation in detail as opposed to being spoonfed by RDS, around 2007 or 2008. One thing I noticed is that every summer I saw the same argument, "next year when the Habs have no injures we will be a better team". I bought into it the first time, I was probably one of those people that thought the 2007-08 playoff elimination was due to Streit being injured. But eventually I noticed it was a ****** argument, because the same argument was being made every summer.

Here's the thing: there are injuries every single year. There will be injuries this year. It doesn't need to be Markov, in fact it probably won't be Markov, but either way our roster looks like last-place-worthy once you remove a whole lot of players.

We only had half a season of Gorges and a half season of Wisniewski. But you're right injuries happen and good teams are able to deal with them. We lack the depth to deal with them which is why we usually just make it into the playoffs instead of competing for the division. I just don't see how a lack of depth to deal with injuries is cause for us to go into rebuilding mode.

 

[Sorinth]

Because winning the cup is hard. Because even if you build the best team in the league you still might not win a cup. You can ask Vancouver and Ottawa about that.

That doesn't mean its not worth building the best team you can.

And all three of those teams DID win a cup.

Nobody is saying we have to finish last for years on end. READ the posts...

If you want me to list all the teams that drafted high and didn't win the cup I can but that's not the point.

Absolutely we should try to build the best team we can, but we have a good enough nucleus that we should be building around them rather entering a rebuild. And that means having vets to help carry the load so that the younger players can be put into situations where they can succeed

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

If you want me to list all the teams that drafted high and didn't win the cup I can but that's not the point.

Most cup winners are rebuilds dude.

Absolutely we should try to build the best team we can, but we have a good enough nucleus that we should be building around them rather entering a rebuild. And that means having vets to help carry the load so that the younger players can be put into situations where they can succeed

And nobody is suggesting we get rid of the young nucleus, we're suggesting that we add to it. We're not winning anything this year anyway man. Accept it. We won't be contenders next year either.

That's why it makes sense right now to realize this and do something about it. Nobody is suggesting 5 years at the bottom. You're right our young nucleus is good. Even if we do trade the vets that nucleus won't stay at the bottom for long plus we'll have the extra picks and prospects to go along with it.

It's nice to have vets but not at the expense of getting young talent. If you are not in a position to win you need to look towards the future and do what you can to win down the road. We'll still have vets, just not as many.