Speculation: McKenzie: Everyone save for 5 players are available to trade from Florida

Laus723

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Jan 27, 2006
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How is Kuli our "best defenseman???" You mean the guy who's guaranteed to make a horrible, often blind, pass in his own zone? The kind that almost always gets picked off and leads to an amazing shot on goal for the opposition? Because he can't put a slap shot on net? Ever??

While I don't feel he's an 'a-hole,' and unless we get get a d-man back his leaving would cause a void, Weaver (sadly) has been the most steady (guess that means best) defenseman so far. Not Kulikov.

However, I'm sure most of the NHL still sees him as having value and we could probably get a good return for him. Better than most anyone else on the team.
 

Laus723

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Good goalie and again, cap going up, team has to spend money on just to get to salary floor, so it could spend it here.

JOL

They traded Schneider, though, how is Luongo going to be available? Am I missing something, or are is everyone forgetting this??
 

RainingRats

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Dec 28, 2008
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How is Kuli our "best defenseman???" You mean the guy who's guaranteed to make a horrible, often blind, pass in his own zone? The kind that almost always gets picked off and leads to an amazing shot on goal for the opposition? Because he can't put a slap shot on net? Ever??

While I don't feel he's an 'a-hole,' and unless we get get a d-man back his leaving would cause a void, Weaver (sadly) has been the most steady (guess that means best) defenseman so far. Not Kulikov.

However, I'm sure most of the NHL still sees him as having value and we could probably get a good return for him. Better than most anyone else on the team.

So what you're saying is that he'd get a good return but isn't good? LOL

Weaver has been bad this year. He's frequently out of position and gets beat a lot.
 

SeasonTicket

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Sep 5, 2006
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Tallon is trying to drive up Goc's value. No chance he's untouchable.

Maybe Horacheck has a comfort level with Goc knowing he needs a reliable center with experience on the team besides the two kids. They were both in Nashville right.
 

RainingRats

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Dec 28, 2008
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That's not what I've been reading from post-game threads here. A lot of people complaining he's a turnover machine. Not to say I'm in the "trade him" camp. Just saying, I doubt he's actually our best defenseman right now.

There's a group of posters who put him under the magnifying glass and every time he misplays the puck or losses a battle they think he sucks. It's bizarre.

To be fair, there isn't much competition. Not sure who people think is better. Gudbranson? No. Weaver? Absolutely not. Campbell? Hell no. Then you have guys like Gilbert, Gilroy, Whitney...
 

Acadmus

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While I don't feel he's an 'a-hole,' and unless we get get a d-man back his leaving would cause a void, Weaver (sadly) has been the most steady (guess that means best) defenseman so far. Not Kulikov.
Come to think of it, hasn't Weaver been our steadiest defenseman for quite a few years now? Seem to recall he and I guess maybe Garrison were a pairing in the team's last playoff year and were considered one of if not the best shutdown defensive pairs in the league that season.
 

Acadmus

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Jul 22, 2003
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There's a group of posters who put him under the magnifying glass and every time he misplays the puck or losses a battle they think he sucks. It's bizarre.
Maybe it has to do with WHEN he's misplaying the puck or losing a battle. I seem to recall reading an official game summary just this past weekend where 2 of the opponents 3 goals were attributed to his errors. Nothing bizarre in people finding fault with him, even if he's not been the worst, just the worst timed.
 

RainingRats

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Dec 28, 2008
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Maybe it has to do with WHEN he's misplaying the puck or losing a battle. I seem to recall reading an official game summary just this past weekend where 2 of the opponents 3 goals were attributed to his errors. Nothing bizarre in people finding fault with him, even if he's not been the worst, just the worst timed.

That was a bad game. It happens. Last night he was fantastic and none of the Kulikov bashers give him any credit. They're not fair in their assessment.
 

Laus723

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That was a bad game. It happens. Last night he was fantastic and none of the Kulikov bashers give him any credit. They're not fair in their assessment.

Take off the rose colored glasses, it happen nearly every game.

And you put words into mouth, or as usual, saw what you wanted. What did how many teams get for Versteeg? He's good enough, at times, but he also brain farts often and it's obvious why he hasn't stuck.
 

CoolburnIsGone

Guest
If you look at the Fenwick and Corsi scores, our best d-man has actually been Gilroy, with Campbell a close 2nd and with Gilroy not playing every game, I think that means Campbell is still our best. Campbell has been carrying Gilbert so far this season and I think with a better partner (who obviously isnt currently on the roster), Campbell could be better.

And if you look at those scores for our worst defender, Whitney is that guy though he hasnt played that many games. Kulikov is the worst of our regular d-men looking at both Fenwick & Corsi. All the stats suggest thats the case and based on what we've all seen too, it definitely correlates. If we can trade him while his value is still high because teams feel he still has potential, then its definitely worth doing so.

http://www.extraskater.com/players/on-ice?min_gp=1&pos=D&sort=fenwick_pct&team=fla
 

dbhislife

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Jun 27, 2007
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If you look at the Fenwick and Corsi scores, our best d-man has actually been Gilroy, with Campbell a close 2nd and with Gilroy not playing every game, I think that means Campbell is still our best. Campbell has been carrying Gilbert so far this season and I think with a better partner (who obviously isnt currently on the roster), Campbell could be better.

And if you look at those scores for our worst defender, Whitney is that guy though he hasnt played that many games. Kulikov is the worst of our regular d-men looking at both Fenwick & Corsi. All the stats suggest thats the case and based on what we've all seen too, it definitely correlates. If we can trade him while his value is still high because teams feel he still has potential, then its definitely worth doing so.

http://www.extraskater.com/players/on-ice?min_gp=1&pos=D&sort=fenwick_pct&team=fla

Don't come in here with logic and sound argumentation!!!! Our brethren would prefer to just continue slinging mud at one another!
 

RainingRats

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Dec 28, 2008
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If you look at the Fenwick and Corsi scores, our best d-man has actually been Gilroy, with Campbell a close 2nd and with Gilroy not playing every game, I think that means Campbell is still our best. Campbell has been carrying Gilbert so far this season and I think with a better partner (who obviously isnt currently on the roster), Campbell could be better.

And if you look at those scores for our worst defender, Whitney is that guy though he hasnt played that many games. Kulikov is the worst of our regular d-men looking at both Fenwick & Corsi. All the stats suggest thats the case and based on what we've all seen too, it definitely correlates. If we can trade him while his value is still high because teams feel he still has potential, then its definitely worth doing so.

http://www.extraskater.com/players/on-ice?min_gp=1&pos=D&sort=fenwick_pct&team=fla

There was an interesting commentary recently that data isn't collected accurately across the league fwiw and some GMs don't use it for this very reason.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...-in-hockeys-statistical-push/article15384253/

I think there is value in it somewhere. This explains it better than I could ever. http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2013/...completely-wrong-but-still-gets-things-right/

There's more to it than just individual stats that are applied to rate players in a team game. Maybe Kulikov has more ice time with a weaker group of forwards compared to Gilroy? Maybe Kulikov is playing against weaker forwards? There's a lot left untold with corsi and fenwick.
 
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GrumpyKelly

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May 15, 2011
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To be fair, there isn't much competition. Not sure who people think is better. Gudbranson? No. Weaver? Absolutely not. Campbell? Hell no. Then you have guys like Gilbert, Gilroy, Whitney...

If anything Weaver has suffered from Kulikov´s performance. He has definitely been more solid than Kulikov.

Campbell hasn´t been very good but at least he makes up for his mistakes. And stats are always a bit tricky but when one guy is -9 for the season and both Campbell and Gilbert are +2, it´s hard to make a case for the -9 guy. That´s a pretty huge difference.

Isn´t he supposed to be an offensive D man? Cos he hasn´t done **** offensively which would at least cover up the mental lapses that has in the d zone.
 

hockeydude1

#CatsAreComing
Mar 9, 2008
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Right now I'm not even sure if Kulikov knows what kind of defense style he is playing. He sure isn't scoring and he sure ain't defending much. Lots of mistakes that seem to be over and over. Campbell makes mistakes but can score a goal or make a great play. It's that difference that needs to be fixed.
 

FrolikFan67

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Apr 29, 2012
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i don't know much about corsi…or really anything about it honestly. but according to that list gilroy is our best and gilbert is our 3rd? thats all i needed to know about that :P
i prefer to judge players by watching them play, but thats just me :)
 

FrolikFan67

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Apr 29, 2012
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and kulikov looked great last night. very noticeable. it doesn't help that he's on a terrible team. put him on a good team with a good defensive partner and good forwards and watch. though i don't want him moved he is the only value asset we have outside of our top prospects which aren't moving. I'm curious what we could get for him.
 

Egblad

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May 20, 2006
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i don't know much about corsi…or really anything about it honestly. but according to that list gilroy is our best and gilbert is our 3rd? thats all i needed to know about that :P
i prefer to judge players by watching them play, but thats just me :)

Corsi is a possession statistic that focuses on shots for and against a team when a specific player is on the ice. A positive corsi relative score for say kulikov, would show that the team is spending more time in the offensive zone (and shooting the puck) when he is on the ice, than when he is off of it, on the contrary, if it were negative, it means that the other team is putting more shots on net against us when Kulikov is on the ice, than if he were off the ice. All stats have their issues, but I like corsi more than others.

Despite Gilroy's gaffes, he's great on the transition, and his corsi rating reflects that, and it's the same for Campbell.
 

CoolburnIsGone

Guest
There was an interesting commentary recently that data isn't collected accurately across the league fwiw and some GMs don't use it for this very reason.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...-in-hockeys-statistical-push/article15384253/

I think there is value in it somewhere. This explains it better than I could ever. http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2013/...completely-wrong-but-still-gets-things-right/

There's more to it than just individual stats that are applied to rate players in a team game. Maybe Kulikov has more ice time with a weaker group of forwards compared to Gilroy? Maybe Kulikov is playing against weaker forwards? There's a lot left untold with corsi and fenwick.
I actually think its a mistake for teams not to use any of these metrics to analyze their players. If we had, we would have known truly how likely guys are to reach the same level of play consistently and whether they are worth signing to those big contracts. I know when I looked at Versteeg's past using Corsi, Fenwick, PDO, etc I could see some specific patterns emerge that immediately suggested his play in 2011 was not indicative of his true level of play.

As I May Be Wrong has described Corsi, its a possession statistic and when you have the puck, it means you're in a good situation in comparison to your opponent. But the basis of it is shots...the more you take, obviously the more chances you score. Fenwick just removes the blocked shots from the equation. The main knock against Coris & Fenwick usually is that shots dont always equate to wins. But in that 2nd article you quoted, they referenced another article that definitely suggests that Fenwick is tied to the quality of shots and does in fact lead to scoring chances (which does lead to wins more often than not). Give that one a read:
http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/6/26/sho...ation-between-scoring-chances-and-shot-totals

But both of these scores also can be taken in context of quality of competition and your teammates along with what the values are. I usually refer to Corsi Relative to Quality of Competition (often known as Corsi Rel QoC) as that gauges the player's corsi score compared to the corsi of the guys he's on the ice facing. What you were talking about at the end is the quality of your teammates versus the quality of competition too. Thats when you look at Corsi Relative and Corsi Rel QoC to start looking for patterns with players. And you cant just use the current yr to judge but look across multiple yrs to find the patterns. But then talking about TOI in terms of quality of both teammates & competition then gets in a step further of how good a player is.
Interesting read: http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/8/16/a-competition-metric-based-on-ice-time

For FWIW, Kulikov this season has had the 2nd highest score for quality of his pairing partner (Gilbert is 1st, obviously being paired with Campbell frequently). In terms of the quality of forwards he's faced, they show that he's not been facing the top guys and behind all d-men except Guds & Gilroy.

http://www.extraskater.com/players/qual_team?min_gp=50&pos=D&sort=tottm_d&team=fla
http://www.extraskater.com/players/qual_comp?sort=tottm&pos=D&min_gp=50&team=fla
 

Sports24-7

Registered User
Feb 19, 2007
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I don't know why it's so difficult for people to think Goc is unavailable.

The guy is extremely consistent, plays the entire rink, and is the ideal 3rd line center for any hockey team. I think Tallon wants to keep him because of that reason alone. Drew Shore may one day be our 3rd line center, but right now we are in possession of a great piece in Goc.

The only players I really would like to see stay are Goc, Flash and Campbell. Campbell because I know he could do well with a better D core around him, Goc for the reason above, and Flash because I think he's still a great offensive player that needs good linemates. He is a perfect 2nd line LW for a great team, so I would much rather keep him at this point.

Versteeg and Kulikov need to go.

A bad team that's trying to rebuild can't afford make a 3rd line center unavailable, even if he's an ideal 3rd line center. In fact, if he is indeed an ideal 3rd line center on any team, that should motivate them even more to make him available because it means teams will give up good value for him. And if teams are going to give up good value for him, it would be foolish to keep him because he's a good 3rd line center when your team is going nowhere. If a player is not young, with good potential, he should be available right now. It doesn't mean you need to give these guys away, but for the right deal, you have to move a guy like Goc.
 

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