McDavid in the 80s

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PittsburghPens8771

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It's not all opinion. There's some reasonable analysis to be done if one would like to go to that extent. Otherwise, a person could have the "opinion" that an AHL scrub transported back in time to the 80's with his modern equipment and training would dominate the league.

We’re discussing McDavid and Gretzky. Don’t try and pretend to yourself you “won” and argument because you changed the parameters.

There is no reasonable analysis someone can dive into to somehow show proof of what you’re saying. I don’t care about stats based on GPG from then to today.
 

Thenameless

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We’re discussing McDavid and Gretzky. Don’t try and pretend to yourself you “won” and argument because you changed the parameters.

There is no reasonable analysis someone can dive into to somehow show proof of what you’re saying. I don’t care about stats based on GPG from then to today.

It doesn't matter what you care or don't care about.

Gretzky and Lemieux played at a level far above anyone the league had ever seen before or since from an offensive production standpoint.

An aging, broken Lemieux was still neck-and-neck with a prime Jagr as the NHL entered the dead-puck era. Eventually, Jagr became the league's best offensive player. A 33-34 year old Jagr scored 123 points in the 2005-2006 season with the New York Rangers - which coincidentally is Sidney Crosby's rookie year. In 2006-2007, Crosby's highest scoring year, he scored 120 points. In the last few years, a young closer-to-his-prime McDavid has been beating an aging Crosby for Art Ross trophies, and in his best years might score in the 120-130 range as did Jagr and Crosby. Jagr, Crosby, and McDavid are a lot closer in overall offensive capability than they are to Gretzky and Lemieux, who are head and shoulders above the rest. In the 60's and 70's, before Gretzky came along, no one would have believed a player could score over 200 points in a season, and no has done it since.

You see, you might have had a case if these eras had existed in a vacuum, but they didn't. There is/was overlap. McDavid is in the middle of taking over from Crosby, who took over from Jagr. And none of these three were anywhere near close to Gretzky and Lemieux.

It's not an opinion.

You just can't win this one.
 

Ryuji Yamazaki

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Pffft he'd have like 300 points.

People in the 80s just couldn't play hockey. Half the goals scored looked like beer league goals.
 
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dortt

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And that's different from the past 2 years how? He has close to no help on his entire roster. We all know by the end of the season he will clearly be in the lead for the art ross.

I don't care how many points Gretzky was clear of 2nd place in the 80's. It's a different game today.

Gretzky often outscored the next closest on his team by about 100 points.

If McDavid were that good, he would be leading the league by at least 25 percent in scoring, likely far more.

And if you think those high points seasons from the past are impossible, how then did a Lemiuex who was out with injury for 3.5 years and could barely lace up his skates have a 144 point pace as a 35 year old in 2000-2001? The answer is, he was that much better than everyone else.

The argument that today's athletes are better than those in the past is the exact same garbage spewed by pro golf commentators in the late 80s or early 90s. They insisted a career like Nicklaus was impossible then because the average player was so much better. The truth was, the top players simply were not as elite as those before. Then Tiger and Phil came along and put up career like in the old days, blew that thinking out of the water. The same will happen in the NHL, likely in the not too distant future
 

Thenameless

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And if you think those high points seasons from the past are impossible, how then did a Lemiuex who was out with injury for 3.5 years and could barely lace up his skates have a 144 point pace as a 35 year old in 2000-2001? The answer is, he was that much better than everyone else.

The argument that today's athletes are better than those in the past is the exact same garbage spewed by pro golf commentators in the late 80s or early 90s. They insisted a career like Nicklaus was impossible then because the average player was so much better. The truth was, the top players simply were not as elite as those before. Then Tiger and Phil came along and put up career like in the old days, blew that thinking out of the water. The same will happen in the NHL, likely in the not too distant future

dortt, he just doesn't get it.
 

PittsburghPens8771

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It doesn't matter what you care or don't care about.

Gretzky and Lemieux played at a level far above anyone the league had ever seen before or since from an offensive production standpoint.

An aging, broken Lemieux was still neck-and-neck with a prime Jagr as the NHL entered the dead-puck era. Eventually, Jagr became the league's best offensive player. A 33-34 year old Jagr scored 123 points in the 2005-2006 season with the New York Rangers - which coincidentally is Sidney Crosby's rookie year. In 2006-2007, Crosby's highest scoring year, he scored 120 points. In the last few years, a young closer-to-his-prime McDavid has been beating an aging Crosby for Art Ross trophies, and in his best years might score in the 120-130 range as did Jagr and Crosby. Jagr, Crosby, and McDavid are a lot closer in overall offensive capability than they are to Gretzky and Lemieux, who are head and shoulders above the rest. In the 60's and 70's, before Gretzky came along, no one would have believed a player could score over 200 points in a season, and no has done it since.

You see, you might have had a case if these eras had existed in a vacuum, but they didn't. There is/was overlap. McDavid is in the middle of taking over from Crosby, who took over from Jagr. And none of these three were anywhere near close to Gretzky and Lemieux.

It's not an opinion.

You just can't win this one.

You're arguing under the assumption that I'm saying McDavid (and Crosby) are on par with Lemieux and Gretzky. I'm not saying that. What I originally said was McDavid with today's training and equipment would absolutely demolish the 80's.
 

Thenameless

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You're arguing under the assumption that I'm saying McDavid (and Crosby) are on par with Lemieux and Gretzky. I'm not saying that. What I originally said was McDavid with today's training and equipment would absolutely demolish the 80's.

The following bolded text is what you said earlier in post #222:

You can’t say if you believe Crosby and McDavid are in the conversation with Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr are out to lunch. The truth is nobody really knows how to compare past v present players. Game is significantly different today with significantly more skilled players as a whole. If you believe bc statistically they were more dominant you’re out to lunch.

Now, you're changing your story. Crosby and McDavid are not in the conversation with Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr.
 
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authentic

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Never said the game hasn't evolved - or let's even be more accurate, and say "improved" in an overall sense. What I am saying is exactly the following:

If you plop 2018 McDavid (skates, training and all) onto Gretzky's 1982 Oilers, basically replacing Gretzky himself, he would not beat Gretzky's 92 goals and 212 points. He would be the best player in the game by a fair margin, but he still wouldn't be able to match '82 Gretzky. Have a look for yourself:

1981-82 Edmonton Oilers Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

The second highest scoring Oiler is Glenn Anderson with 105 points. You think McDavid could carry that team like Gretzky did? The Oiler support players that year were not Hall of Fame talent level yet like later on. Gretzky helped his teammates to improve to a level where they would start winning multiple Stanley Cups two seasons later. Do you think McDavid is going to be able to ramp up his overall level of play like that?

100% yes, he would routinely skate circles around teams and finish pretty easily on those goalies or set teammates up for tap ins. I don't think he would break a sweat topping Gretzky's totals in his new equipment, the 1980 game of hockey resembles modern beer league in pace and skill level.
 
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authentic

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It's not all opinion. There's some reasonable analysis to be done if one would like to go to that extent. Otherwise, a person could have the "opinion" that an AHL scrub transported back in time to the 80's with his modern equipment and training would dominate the league.

He would though.
 

authentic

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Not so sure why the early 90s time being the same has today would be because even thought skater are now faster in straight line they got worst at turning ?

Players can certainly turn and pivot faster today. They are better stickhandlers, skaters, shooters, passers, etc., I could see someone trying to defend that a modern player wouldn't be the best back then with the equipment of the time period even if I don't believe it, but trying to defend that you don't believe McDavid with his 2018 gear and training would lead the league in points seems like trying to deny climate change or something.
 

authentic

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And you can't prove that McDavid would have outscored Gretzky.

What you will see in time is the consensus that Gretzky is still superior to McDavid, era adjusted or otherwise.

Obviously, because players are compared to their peers in all-time rankings. No player will be as good as Gretzky again, including Gretzky himself if he was born at a later date. He would be more skilled but he wouldn't dominate his peers more.
 
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authentic

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Forget the lap time, who's straight line speed is faster? I'm not sure, but in today's game that seems to matter more than skating around the net and doing a lap.

Plus are we forgetting that McDavid is a significantly better puckhandler than anyone in the 80s, especially at top speed? He was literally built for that wide open style of play.
 
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Machinehead

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Plus are we forgetting that McDavid was a significantly better puckhandler than anyone in the 80s, especially at top speed? He was literally built for that wide open style of play.
Except, you know, Gretzky.

(And Mario for that matter)
 

authentic

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Threads like this pop up all the time. The last one I remember was about Bobby Orr taking a time machine to the present. All the same arguments came up about equipment etc. If anyone is interested in just fast forwarding things and seeing how this thread will eventually go, check out the thread links below.

In the thread, I did a video analysis of Bobby Orr's speed vs McDavid's, by comparing how many frames of video it took them to skate through the neutral zone, using multiple sources. Taking into account the change in neutral zone dimensions, and doing a little math to calculate speed, the analysis showed Bobby Orr skated just as fast as McDavid.

My posts with the calculations are #934 in the first link and post #89 if anyone cares. Unfortunately, the links to most of the source videos are dead, but math is there for any to see.

If Bobby Orr took a time machine from 1970 to 2017...

If Bobby Orr took a time machine from 1970 to 2017... Part II (Mod warning post#199)

Bobby Orr was not as fast as McDavid! Lol.

Connor McDavid clocked going over 40 km/h during dazzling end-to-end rush against the Calgary Flames
 

dortt

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Obviously, because players are compared to their peers in all-time rankings. No player will be as good as Gretzky again, including Gretzky himself if he was born at a later date. He would be more skilled but he wouldn't dominate his peers more.

as I said before, the SAME argument was made in golf 25 years ago. It got blown up by someone with > 40 wins and another with 80 wins. The exact same situation exists in hockey as it did in golf then. The top players simply are not as good as they used to be. It should change soon. I fully expect that within 10 years, another true generational player will emerge
 

Fitzy

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The best mile time in 1913, just around a hundred years ago, was 4:13. Now it's 3:43.

Athletics gets better and better. Better training, diets, medicine, injury treatment.

It's not really fair to compare.
 

McFlash97

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Oiler fans like myself feel privileged and lucky to have witnessed the greatest forward to ever play the game , and the first legit heir to the throne. Connor McDavid.
 

KingsFan7824

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Great players will be great in any era. The context will always be different. You can't put 2018 McDavid into 1983. You'd have to put a McDavid born in 1961 into the 1983 NHL. Same way you can't compare a 1983 Gretzky to a Gretzky born in 1997. Great players will simply be great whenever they would've played. Ovechkin would be great in 1985, except he probably would've have been in the NHL in 1985, with that whole Iron Curtain thing.

This is a sports debate that cannot be settled. It's the same with LeBron vs Jordan, or whatever else. It's what makes the debate fun, but also annoying. There's no way of testing it.
 

ThatGuy22

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I've read like 3/4ths this nutso thread, and no one has asked the obvious (unless it was in the other 1/4).

If you surmise McDavid could do what Gretzky did in the 80s with his modern training and equipment, let's go nuts.

Say Gretzky was transported to 2000 when he was a baby, raised and trained in this era and THAN jumped back in his tardis for a trip back to the 80s.

How many points to you surmise he would score? If you think McDavid training now puts him in Gretzkys territory than, the only logical conclusion is you think Gretsky would put up 300 or so points in that scenerio.
 
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authentic

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Yeah, this bum can't handle the puck at all.


Hey, it's a far cry from not being able to handle the puck at all and being able to handle it as well as McDavid. I mean McDavid dangles and stickhandles through players today on a more regular basis than Gretzky did in the 80s believe it or not. This video doesn't do much to support your claim btw.
 

authentic

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Jan 28, 2015
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I've read like 3/4ths this nutso thread, and no one has asked the obvious (unless it was in the other 1/4).

If you surmise McDavid could do what Gretzky did in the 80s with his modern training and equipment, let's go nuts.

Say Gretzky was transported to 2000 when he was a baby, raised and trained in this era and THAN jumped back in his tardis for a trip back to the 80s.

How many points to you surmise he would score? If you think McDavid training now puts him in Gretzkys territory than, the only logical conclusion is you think Gretsky would put up 300 or so points in that scenerio.

Probably far more.
 
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