McDavid in the 80s

[authentic]

You want some facts?

In his fourth year as a pro, Gretzky scored 92 goals, 120 assists, for 212 points. This is the year when he accomplished the legendary feat of scoring 50 goals in 39 games.

Adjust all you want in your modern era, modern equipment, modern training fantasy-land. Connor McDavid will be hard-pressed to even achieve half that number of goals/assists/points this season, and scoring is not twice as hard in this era.

I'm not saying Gretzky's stat line would be 92/120/212 had he been playing this season in 2018/2019, but I can tell you with certainty that he wouldn't be hovering around 10th place in scoring and around 10 points behind the leader by December 7th.

Lol, that's not how it works. If you think the amount of goals scored in the league is simply an indication of how much harder it would be to score by that logic McDavid would score roughly the same today as in the 1930s, even after accounting for the average talent level which was far more condensed but still not as much as today. The thing is with the time machine scenario the parity level and talent distribution not only comes into play, but the raw athleticism, overall skill level and hockey IQ do as well.

Since you are claiming McDavid even with todays equipment wouldn't score twice as much back then because it wasn't twice as hard to score based on the league average goals per game, would that not apply to going back to much earlier times? I would guess that you don't believe it does, so either hockey stopped evolving from 1980 until now (when in reality the biggest advances in the evolution of the game happened from 1980-2000) or you just have no other way of denying the truth of the matter which is McDavid would probably double Gretzky in points at the least if he went back in time with his equipment and was somehow allowed to cheat like that. He would easily lead the league in points with equipment from the 1950s with his overall skill, IQ and athletic ability anyway.

 

[Thenameless]

Dude, they are almost two different sports if you go back and watch 80s hockey. This is one of the most naive comments I've ever seen. You don't think he could match Gretzky in points even with today's equipment back then? Wow.

Okay, let's break it down into some detail.

McDavid is among the best playmakers of today. Gretzky is the best playmaker of all-time. Better pads/helmet, skates, and stick is not going to make up for the gap in vision, anticipation, touch, and higher hockey IQ that Gretzky possesses in order to be able to rack up the assists. Don't even get into goal scoring where Gretzky is naturally leaps and bounds better than McDavid who may never win a Rocket. It's unrealistic to think McDavid could have ever had a 162 assist or 92 goal season in the 80's even with modern equipment.

Physically, McDavid has a tangible advantage in straight line speed and is likely physically stronger, and that's about it - note, a lot of NHL players have been faster and stronger than Gretzky. Gretzky is more shifty with his ability to stick handle in a phone booth, he has a better shot, better vision, and better passing. I'm not sure who has better endurance between the two as the modern game plays shorter shifts, but Gretzky is legendary for his ability to play many long shifts in a game, at a high level. His on-bench rate of recovery was incredible, so I suspect overall endurance would at least be a tie if not in Gretzky's favour.

Mentally, Gretzky is one of the greatest clutch performers of all-time, be it Stanley Cup playoffs or International Play. He doesn't disappear in crunch time. He is considered to have the greatest offensive hockey IQ of all-time - some of the no-look passes he made, made people think that he had eyes in the back of his head. These were tape-to-tape passes that were dependent on vision, anticipation, precision, and touch - things that would give no advantage to a guy with better skates and a better stick. You either have the overall ability to anticipate and make a pass like that, or you don't. I respect McDavid's ability to mentally and psychologically handle the greater demands of today's media/social media - this part of today's game is definitely harder than being an Oiler of the 80's.

Like I said earlier, you're looking at Yoda versus a Storm Trooper with better equipment - it's just not going to matter in the end.

 

[Thenameless]

I would guess that you don't believe it does, so either hockey stopped evolving from 1980 until now (when in reality the biggest advances in the evolution of the game happened from 1980-2000) or you just have no other way of denying the truth of the matter which is McDavid would probably double Gretzky in points at the least if he went back in time with his equipment and was somehow allowed to cheat like that. He would easily lead the league in points with equipment from the 1950s with his overall skill, IQ and athletic ability anyway.

Never said the game hasn't evolved - or let's even be more accurate, and say "improved" in an overall sense. What I am saying is exactly the following:

If you plop 2018 McDavid (skates, training and all) onto Gretzky's 1982 Oilers, basically replacing Gretzky himself, he would not beat Gretzky's 92 goals and 212 points. He would be the best player in the game by a fair margin, but he still wouldn't be able to match '82 Gretzky. Have a look for yourself:

1981-82 Edmonton Oilers Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

The second highest scoring Oiler is Glenn Anderson with 105 points. You think McDavid could carry that team like Gretzky did? The Oiler support players that year were not Hall of Fame talent level yet like later on. Gretzky helped his teammates to improve to a level where they would start winning multiple Stanley Cups two seasons later. Do you think McDavid is going to be able to ramp up his overall level of play like that?

 

[puckpilot]

Threads like this pop up all the time. The last one I remember was about Bobby Orr taking a time machine to the present. All the same arguments came up about equipment etc. If anyone is interested in just fast forwarding things and seeing how this thread will eventually go, check out the thread links below.

In the thread, I did a video analysis of Bobby Orr's speed vs McDavid's, by comparing how many frames of video it took them to skate through the neutral zone, using multiple sources. Taking into account the change in neutral zone dimensions, and doing a little math to calculate speed, the analysis showed Bobby Orr skated just as fast as McDavid.

My posts with the calculations are #934 in the first link and post #89 if anyone cares. Unfortunately, the links to most of the source videos are dead, but math is there for any to see.

If Bobby Orr took a time machine from 1970 to 2017...

If Bobby Orr took a time machine from 1970 to 2017... Part II (Mod warning post#199)

 

[Bupi]

If anyone of today's 2nd year physics student would be sent to year 1650 then nobody had ever heard of Newton or Gauss.

 

[MadLuke]

Didn't read everything but I imagine this was already posted:

1992	Sergei Fedorov	14.363
1993	Mike Gartner	13.510
1994	Sergei Fedorov	13.525
1996	Mike Gartner	13.386
1997	Peter Bondra	13.610
1998	Scott Niedermayer	13.560
1999	Peter Bondra	14.640
2000	Sami Kapanen	13.649
2001	Bill Guerin	13.690
2002	Sami Kapanen	14.039
2003	Marian Gaborik	13.713[2]
2004	Scott Niedermayer	13.783
2007	Andy McDonald	14.03
2008	Shawn Horcoff	14.395
2009	Andrew Cogliano	14.31
2011	Michael Grabner	14.238
2012	Carl Hagelin	13.218
2015	Jonathan Drouin	13.103
2016	Dylan Larkin	13.172
2017	Connor McDavid	13.310
2018	Connor McDavid	13.454

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

McDavid last year lap was slower than Mike Gartner, significant faster time was made went players had an head start, remove it is gone.

Skate of lighter and I imagine more conformable and so on but are they that different in performance ? A younger and faster Gartner played all the seasons in the 80s and was not alien to the rest of the league at the time.

Now that stick would give him quite the edge, but he is not Semin/Oveckin/Kowalchuck/Laine either with it. If he bring some playstyle/knowledge people of the time didn't had, they would adjust rapidly and started using it themselve 1 or 2 season after McDavid enter the league and make it progress.

 

[triggrman]

I dunno what Mcdavid would do in the 80s but if it was the 1910s he would defintely score 500 goals in the first 20 games then die from Influenza A

hahaha, this is an awesome post!!!!!

 

[Jauffre]

10 breakaways per game

100+ goals

250 points

 

[Voight]

Did you forgot how hard guys hit back then? He's by no means a shrimp but he aint that bulky either.

 

[McFlash97]

Have seen enough of McDavid to suggest he is a legit 180 point player in the 80s. Also have seen enough of Gretzky to suggest 99 hits about 160 today.

 

[PittsburghPens8771]

Okay, let's break it down into some detail.

McDavid is among the best playmakers of today. Gretzky is the best playmaker of all-time. Better pads/helmet, skates, and stick is not going to make up for the gap in vision, anticipation, touch, and higher hockey IQ that Gretzky possesses in order to be able to rack up the assists. Don't even get into goal scoring where Gretzky is naturally leaps and bounds better than McDavid who may never win a Rocket. It's unrealistic to think McDavid could have ever had a 162 assist or 92 goal season in the 80's even with modern equipment.

Physically, McDavid has a tangible advantage in straight line speed and is likely physically stronger, and that's about it - note, a lot of NHL players have been faster and stronger than Gretzky. Gretzky is more shifty with his ability to stick handle in a phone booth, he has a better shot, better vision, and better passing. I'm not sure who has better endurance between the two as the modern game plays shorter shifts, but Gretzky is legendary for his ability to play many long shifts in a game, at a high level. His on-bench rate of recovery was incredible, so I suspect overall endurance would at least be a tie if not in Gretzky's favour.

Mentally, Gretzky is one of the greatest clutch performers of all-time, be it Stanley Cup playoffs or International Play. He doesn't disappear in crunch time. He is considered to have the greatest offensive hockey IQ of all-time - some of the no-look passes he made, made people think that he had eyes in the back of his head. These were tape-to-tape passes that were dependent on vision, anticipation, precision, and touch - things that would give no advantage to a guy with better skates and a better stick. You either have the overall ability to anticipate and make a pass like that, or you don't. I respect McDavid's ability to mentally and psychologically handle the greater demands of today's media/social media - this part of today's game is definitely harder than being an Oiler of the 80's.

Like I said earlier, you're looking at Yoda versus a Storm Trooper with better equipment - it's just not going to matter in the end.

You can’t prove what you are claiming as fact.

I hate breaking it to you, but this is nothing more than an opinion. You realize that... right?

 

[PittsburghPens8771]

Did you forgot how hard guys hit back then? He's by no means a shrimp but he aint that bulky either.

So how did Gretzky survive in that era then...? Lol for the love of god.

 

[Voight]

So how did Gretzky survive in that era then...? Lol for the love of god.

Semenko..... and the fact that he was nearly impossible to hit. McDavid is stupid fast but with Gretzky it was as if there was a shield around him at all times.

 

[TGWL]

Didn't read everything but I imagine this was already posted:

1992	Sergei Fedorov	14.363
1993	Mike Gartner	13.510
1994	Sergei Fedorov	13.525
1996	Mike Gartner	13.386
1997	Peter Bondra	13.610
1998	Scott Niedermayer	13.560
1999	Peter Bondra	14.640
2000	Sami Kapanen	13.649
2001	Bill Guerin	13.690
2002	Sami Kapanen	14.039
2003	Marian Gaborik	13.713[2]
2004	Scott Niedermayer	13.783
2007	Andy McDonald	14.03
2008	Shawn Horcoff	14.395
2009	Andrew Cogliano	14.31
2011	Michael Grabner	14.238
2012	Carl Hagelin	13.218
2015	Jonathan Drouin	13.103
2016	Dylan Larkin	13.172
2017	Connor McDavid	13.310
2018	Connor McDavid	13.454

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

McDavid last year lap was slower than Mike Gartner, significant faster time was made went players had an head start, remove it is gone.

Skate of lighter and I imagine more conformable and so on but are they that different in performance ? Gartner played in the 80s and was not alien to the rest of the league at the time.

Now that stick would give him quite the edge, but he is not Semin/Oveckin/Kowalchuck/Laine either with it. If he bring some playstyle/knowledge people of the time didn't had, they would adjust rapidly and started using it themselve 1 or 2 season after McDavid enter the league and make it progress.

Forget the lap time, who's straight line speed is faster? I'm not sure, but in today's game that seems to matter more than skating around the net and doing a lap.

 

[DJJones]

psh, give him a wooden stick, make him smoke a pack a day, and punch him in the face every shift and he'd be a plug.

 

[PittsburghPens8771]

Semenko..... and the fact that he was nearly impossible to hit. McDavid is stupid fast but with Gretzky it was as if there was a shield around him at all times.

So McDavid wouldn’t have a shield around him at all times too...? Cmon man

 

[Voight]

So McDavid wouldn’t have a shield around him at all times too...? Cmon man

I'm not sure if you saw 99 play in his prime but you had better chances at winning the lottery then getting a good hit on him. McDavid is freaking amazing but nowhere near Gretzky.

 

[ImpartialNHLfan]

Semenko..... and the fact that he was nearly impossible to hit. McDavid is stupid fast but with Gretzky it was as if there was a shield around him at all times.

Semenko, he made sure nobody messed with Gretz.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I'm going to ignore the bulk of this thread because I know where it likely lead.

To answer the original question, I am going to assume he was put in an average team situation. Not a dynasty but not the worst in the league, with average talent around him (relative to their roles), not complete duds.

I'd say he'd be the 2nd highest scoring player of the 80's overall, and considered the 3rd best player of the decade behind on Wayne and Mario. He'd have multiple seasons up around 140-150 points, something that happened 3 times outside the big two (Bossy, Nicholls and Yzerman 1 each). He'd finish the decade a fair bit ahead os Stastny for scoring, but still significantly back from Gretzky. He might sneak in an Art Ross in 88 or 90, but still not touch peak Wayne in 82-87. He'd have a plethora of 2nd place Hart and Art Ross finishes.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Semenko, he made sure nobody messed with Gretz.

I think the point is the Oilers weren't the only team how had a guy like Semenko around to protect their stars, and it's a safe bet that McDavid's team would do the same for him.

 

[Thenameless]

You can’t prove what you are claiming as fact.

I hate breaking it to you, but this is nothing more than an opinion. You realize that... right?

And you can't prove that McDavid would have outscored Gretzky.

What you will see in time is the consensus that Gretzky is still superior to McDavid, era adjusted or otherwise.

 

[PittsburghPens8771]

I'm not sure if you saw 99 play in his prime but you had better chances at winning the lottery then getting a good hit on him. McDavid is freaking amazing but nowhere near Gretzky.

Your argument is that they hit way harder in the 80’s. It’s the dumbest argument ever. That’s all I’m getting at.

By the way, have you seen McDavid play? You have a better shot at winning the lottery 10 times than hitting him

 

[PittsburghPens8771]

And you can't prove that McDavid would have outscored Gretzky.

What you will see in time is the consensus that Gretzky is still superior to McDavid, era adjusted or otherwise.

I know you can’t prove McDavid would have outscored Gretzky. That’s my point? It’s all opinion?

 

[MadLuke]

Forget the lap time, who's straight line speed is faster? I'm not sure, but in today's game that seems to matter more than skating around the net and doing a lap.

Not so sure why the early 90s time being the same has today would be because even thought skater are now faster in straight line they got worst at turning ?

 

[Thenameless]

I know you can’t prove McDavid would have outscored Gretzky. That’s my point? It’s all opinion?

It's not all opinion. There's some reasonable analysis to be done if one would like to go to that extent. Otherwise, a person could have the "opinion" that an AHL scrub transported back in time to the 80's with his modern equipment and training would dominate the league.