McDavid in the 80s

[authentic]

This is exactly what I am talking about. A very naive idea, that basically every day hockey players are getting better.

So, lets talk about "evolution" and "progress" of Jaromir Jagr.

So, you are saying, that at the age of 44-45 Jagr was better than Jagr at the age of 25.

So, what did Jagr improve in this 20 years?

When was he healthier? 25 or 45?
When was he faster?
When was he stronger?
When was he more skilled?
When was his head quicker?

So, in what way did he "evolve" to a better player? He learned how to skate properly maybe? Learned how to shoot right way? Learned how to stickhandle like the great McDavid?

So unless he recieved a blessing from the god of evolution, Charles Darwin the words about his alleged "evolution" are just an attempt to rationalize the fact, that evolved enlightened future supermen athletes were not able to keep up with 44 y.o Jagr.

PS Of course time doesn't stand still and everything is changing including hockey. And of course Jagr adjusted. But in no way does this mean he became a better player. He adjusted to his own physical weakening and to the changes in hockey and in equipment.

You would have a really good point if he didn't score half of what he did back then. It's also a difference of 15-20 years (in which he constantly played through and worked extremely hard to stay at the level he maintained from his late 30s and on, plus he's a physical freak of course to begin with), not 39. The evolution in hockey from 1980-1995 alone was pretty significant, and it's still much better in every way since then.

 

[Mbraunm]

With all due respect, I admit that the NHL game has evolved, mainly due to equipment advances and commitment to training.

However, the comments that Gretzky and Lemieux would be average or below average in today’s game if given all the modern advancements, are an absolute joke! I respect McDavid, Kucherov, MacKinnon, Matthews and the other great talents of the modern NHL. The hockey is better now than ever before! However, none of them even come close to Gretzky and Lemieux’s level of vision or IQ.

If today’s stars had been born in 1960 and played in the NHL with no modern advantages, they would dominate but could not come close to outperforming Mario or Wayne.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

So why the 80's? Why not plop him in say the 30's?

 

[CMDEADLY]

With all due respect, I admit that the NHL game has evolved, mainly due to equipment advances and commitment to training.

However, the comments that Gretzky and Lemieux would be average or below average in today’s game if given all the modern advancements, are an absolute joke! I respect McDavid, Kucherov, MacKinnon, Matthews and the other great talents of the modern NHL. The hockey is better now than ever before! However, none of them even come close to Gretzky and Lemieux’s level of vision or IQ.

If today’s stars had been born in 1960 and played in the NHL with no modern advantages, they would dominate but could not come close to outperforming Mario or Wayne.

The generational talent like Sid, and Mcdavid would get close or over them. You have to look at how they played the game vs what the game is now. They would still dominate just a little d like Mcdavid.

 

[Mr Tadakichi]

So why the 80's? Why not plop him in say the 30's?

He would make a great draft pick for the second world war.

 

[Mbraunm]

We will have to agree to disagree. Sure, Sid and McDavid are generational talents that only come around every 15 years or so but Wayne and Mario were the type of talents that come every 50-100 years.

 

[authentic]

With all due respect, I admit that the NHL game has evolved, mainly due to equipment advances and commitment to training.

However, the comments that Gretzky and Lemieux would be average or below average in today’s game if given all the modern advancements, are an absolute joke! I respect McDavid, Kucherov, MacKinnon, Matthews and the other great talents of the modern NHL. The hockey is better now than ever before! However, none of them even come close to Gretzky and Lemieux’s level of vision or IQ.

If today’s stars had been born in 1960 and played in the NHL with no modern advantages, they would dominate but could not come close to outperforming Mario or Wayne.

I haven't come across any post like that.

 

[authentic]

So why the 80's? Why not plop him in say the 30's?

I wonder? Lol.

 

[authentic]

We will have to agree to disagree. Sure, Sid and McDavid are generational talents that only come around every 15 years or so but Wayne and Mario were the type of talents that come every 50-100 years.

Doesn't mean a modern player wouldn't utterly destroy the league more than they did if they went back in time though, the two are not mutually exclusive. Of course it can't actually happen so anyone could say what they like and technically not be able to be proven wrong, but the question this thread is asking is basically "Is Connor McDavid better than Gretzky was just as he is compared to Gretzky just as he was" and the answer is a resounding yes.

 

[Mbraunm]

Doesn't mean a modern player wouldn't utterly destroy the league more than they did if they went back in time though, the two are not mutually exclusive. Of course it can't actually happen so anyone could say what they like and technically not be able to be proven wrong, but the question this thread is asking is basically "Is Connor McDavid better than Gretzky was just as he is compared to Gretzky just as he was" and the answer is a resounding yes.

You make some good points. That being stated, if Connor McDavid were born in 1960 and grew up in that era, I seriously doubt that he would challenge Mario or Wayne. He would dominate, but not at that level.
However, McDavid as he is, with modern equipment and training now would likely outpoint Wayne if dropped into the 1980s.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I haven't come across any post like that.

Isn't that what this says:

"With today's equipment there are guys not playing in the NHL who would outscore Gretzky if sent back in time"

 

[authentic]

You make some good points. That being stated, if Connor McDavid were born in 1960 and grew up in that era, I seriously doubt that he would challenge Mario or Wayne. He would dominate, but not at that level.
However, McDavid as he is, with modern equipment and training now would likely outpoint Wayne if dropped into the 1980s.

That's what I really wonder. It's impossible to know, but my gut feeling says he probably wouldn't. You never know though, maybe a guy like him or Crosby would've been right there with them? It's possible, but probably not likely. On the other hand I don't think it's a given that Wayne would dominate McDavid or Crosby if he was born from 1987-97.

 

[NHL WAR]

So why the 80's? Why not plop him in say the 30's?

High scoring decade that either people lived through or have easy access to footage of. It is fun to think of watching old black and white footage of maskless goalies who are forbidden from dropping to the ice facing countless breakaways from McDavid, though.

 

[Mbraunm]

That's what I really wonder. It's impossible to know, but my gut feeling says he probably wouldn't. You never know though, maybe a guy like him or Crosby would've been right there with them? It's possible, but probably not likely. On the other hand I don't think it's a given that Wayne would dominate McDavid or Crosby if he was born from 1987-97.

You make some good observations. I guess we may never know but it’s fun to discuss.

 

[authentic]

Isn't that what this says:

"With today's equipment there are guys not playing in the NHL who would outscore Gretzky if sent back in time"

"However, the comments that Gretzky and Lemieux would be average or below average in today’s game if given all the modern advancements, are an absolute joke!"

Two different things.

And it's not just today's equipment, players have technically gotten smarter over time and are used to playing against much better team defenses and goaltending. They are more fine tuned in a lot of skills that would especially help them dominate back then. It's a whole different game now.

 

[CMDEADLY]

"However, the comments that Gretzky and Lemieux would be average or below average in today’s game if given all the modern advancements, are an absolute joke!"

Two different things.

And it's not just today's equipment, players have technically gotten smarter over time and are used to playing against much better team defenses and goaltending. They are more fine tuned in a lot of skills that would especially help them dominate back then. It's a whole different game now.

Which is what impresses me the most about Crosby he finds a weakness in his game and he works all summer to remove it and improve upon that aspect.

 

[authentic]

Which is what impresses me the most about Crosby he finds a weakness in his game and he works all summer to remove it and improve upon that aspect.

Exactly. Some refuse to believe it takes any kind of improvement just to maintain a level of play. It takes significant individual improvement or experience to notice a big jump in their on ice performance. Not that players don't decline with age eventually, because they do, but I would be surprised for instance if Gretzky in 1987 wasn't any better than he was in 1982 or 83, and based on my viewings he was. Before a player physically declines due to age or injury is more or less when they were technically at their best.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

"However, the comments that Gretzky and Lemieux would be average or below average in today’s game if given all the modern advancements, are an absolute joke!"

Two different things.

And it's not just today's equipment, players have technically gotten smarter over time and are used to playing against much better team defenses and goaltending. They are more fine tuned in a lot of skills that would especially help them dominate back then. It's a whole different game now.

How is it two different things? Presumably people who aren't even in the NHL would be less than average, yes? If less than average NHLers would beat Gretzky and Lemieux with today's equipment, is that not pretty much saying "Gretzky and Lemieux would be average or below average in today’s game "?

 

[CMDEADLY]

Exactly. Some refuse to believe it takes any kind of improvement just to maintain a level of play. It takes significant individual improvement or experience to notice a big jump in their on ice performance. Not that players don't decline with age eventually, because they do, but I would be surprised for instance if Gretzky in 1987 wasn't any better than he was in 1982 or 83, and based on my viewings he was. Before a player physically declines due to age or injury is more or less when they were technically at their best.

That's also why guys who come out of retirement see such a downtick in effectiveness. They took time off from constantly keeping in shape.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

High scoring decade that either people lived through or have easy access to footage of. It is fun to think of watching old black and white footage of maskless goalies who are forbidden from dropping to the ice facing countless breakaways from McDavid, though.

What you call "fun" I call kind of pointless.

I mean hey, let's think about how the American Revolution would have been different if one side had fighter jets, right?

 

[NHL WAR]

What you call "fun" I call kind of pointless.

I mean hey, let's think about how the American Revolution would have been different if one side had fighter jets, right?

I was trying to throw you a bone since you mentioned the 30s. Perhaps that comment had been meant to be sarcastic and that didnt translate well enough to text for me to catch on.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

I was trying to throw you a bone since you mentioned the 30s. Perhaps that comment had been meant to be sarcastic and that didnt translate well enough to text for me to catch on.

Oh I figured you were, my point was simply to emphasize what I consider the silliness of it. To me the only reasonable for such comparisons is to equal the playing fields across the board. Give Gretzky and Lemieux the same training opportunities and equipment McDavid has and see how it goes. Or something similar.....

Anyone watch the videos of today's NHLers trying wooden sticks?

 

[Windy River]

People would have to catch him first to hit him, plus the physicality of 80s hockey is overstated on here. It wasn't close to the 90s and 2000s. How did Gretzky survive?

By being among the most elusive hockey player ever. He knew where everyone was on the ice, including his opponents, the ones trying to hit him. He was well known for being basically un-hittable.

 

[CMDEADLY]

By being among the most elusive hockey player ever. He knew where everyone was on the ice, including his opponents, the ones trying to hit him. He was well known for being basically un-hittable.

Other players of the time period also stated no one wanted to hit Gretzky how can you not like the guy? I watched a video last night and it had few Gretzky hits, most were weak outside of one Leafs rookie who ran him with his head down.

Gretz was protected and it was a bit obvious to see.

 

[NHL WAR]

Oh I figured you were, my point was simply to emphasize what I consider the silliness of it. To me the only reasonable for such comparisons is to equal the playing fields across the board. Give Gretzky and Lemieux the same training opportunities and equipment McDavid has and see how it goes. Or something similar.....

Anyone watch the videos of today's NHLers trying wooden sticks?

I agree 100%. To have any meaningful comparision between players of different eras you have to take into account the differences of their respective eras. The reason I avoided the level playing field is because I didnt want to encourage McDavid>= Gretzky posts. This is just meant to be a silly hypothetical thread full of silly point totals that can be written off as McD having an unfair advantage.