McDavid in the 80s

[Gabranth]

Watch some games from the early/mid 80s.

Compared to today, 2018:

- The skating (technique) was terrible
- The speed was horroible
- The pace of the game was pewee
- The stickhandling was on par with womens hockey today
- the forward's backchecking, defence, positioning etc. was terrible
- The defencemen's ability to skate backwards, pokecheck, be positional etc. was a horribly bad
- The goalies....look at the kind of goals that was scored and I don'tceven have to say how incredibly bad 99% of the goalies were, compared to today.


Are you seriously telling me that McDavid wouldn't completely destroy the NHL if he was sent back to 1980!?

The only thing making him not get 400+ points us if he got injured or if he lost motivation and startrd to do blow, after thinking it was too easy.

I mean I never watched 80s hockey since I wasn't even around back then, but why did the defense allow Gretzky get so close to the goalie without knocking him out cold? why do the players look so lazy and slow? goalies look small - probably the equipment. So many questions...

 

[Rexor]

It was a different game back then, much slower and players didn't take their off-ice regime as seriously. Goalies were bad by today's standards. On the other hand, there was a lot more cheap shots, a lot more goons and it was generally a rather brutal and "manly" environment compared to today. Players growing-up in the 1960's or 1970's were exposed to endless hours of shinny hockey as children, today the development is more structured, methodical and artificial, so that contemporary players have few technical weaknesses but I don't think they possess those smarts and cunning that you can learn only on the streets.

 

[Rexor]

I mean I never watched 80s hockey since I wasn't even around back then, but why did the defense allow Gretzky get so close to the goalie without knocking him out cold? why do the players look so lazy and slow? goalies look small - probably the equipment. So many questions...

It was Gretzky, his hockey IQ, instincts and anticipation. A lot of his plays looked as if the defences didn't care at all.

 

[Garl]

Western optimism plus theory of evolution equals deluded western secular eschatology and veneration of the future.

 

[LakeLivin]

Teleport present day McDavid back to 1980. He still has his modern equipment and training. How does his career unfold?

If you're going to drop McDavid into the '80s with modern equipment and training, why not go whole hog and also give him the Steve Austin treatment? Drop him into the '80s with bionic implants!

 

[triggrman]

Much different game, 2 line passes, bigger neutral zone, half ice game was totally different that what McDavid is used too, he'd have to adjust for sure, along with the hooks and slashes of yesteryear.

 

[triggrman]

Also, if the players from the 80's were so bad compared to today's advanced speed demons, how was it that a Jagr was still putting up decent point totals in his 40's?

 

[HockeyGuy1964]

All I know is McDavid would draw more penalties back in the 80's than he does now.

 

[Mbraunm]

The game has changed and evolved for sure.
If McDavid were dropped into the NHL with modern equipment, he would dominate and get at least 200 points.

 

[sabrebuild]

Jagr was not a dominant player against today stars, he was a good player in this generation, he didn't break a ppg in the NHL since 06, hockey sense doesn't leave you because the skill's diminish.

Having said that Lemieux would certainly translate to the modern NHL with relative ease. He's a 6'4 truck with a wicked shot. He'd be a very rich man's Getzlaf in today's game. Gretzky doesn't have a comparable in today's game because no one plays like he did. Free wheeling and slick passing has lost it's luster in today's NHL.

I know you all love Gretz and you all will defend him til you grow old. However, he was a product of his time period.

Goalies were averaging 3 ga, a game up until 1993, where we saw a significant decrease in output in scoring.

Lemieux scored 160 in 1993, followed by Lafontaine at 148, Adam Oates at 142, Yzerman at 137, Salanne and Turgeon at 132, Mogliney and Gilmore at 127, Robitalle at 125, and Recchi at 123.

Only Belfour, and Potvin had less than 3 gaa that season.

Now let's look at the 1994 season, a huge change as the goaltending and defense took a huge step forward in their abilities along with all the new franchises having a few seasons under their belt to really solidify their play.

In first we have Gretzky at 130, a 30 point drop from first place last year, Fedorov at 120, Adam Oates at 112, Gilmour at 111, Bure, Recchi and Roenick at 107, Shanahan at 102, Andreychuk and Jagr at 99.

Our goaltending was way better, Dominik Hasek had a 1.95 gaa as well as almost every goalie in the league being below 3.0.

This is where things get pretty different, the league doesn't see another 130+ scorer with Gretzky in the league until Lemieux returns from his cancer, to put up a staggering 160 points with Jagr as his winger with 149

However even he could not defy the game and where it was headed having a 120 point season the very next year. With Salanne being the only other player to break 100 points at 109.

The trend continued the next year Jagr led the league at 102, no one else broke 100. Jagr broke 100 and Sakic in the next few seasons, however no one got really close to going into the 120+ area.

I think I've laid it out pretty well here that the people thinking that Mcdavid wouldn't put up 180+ are kidding themselves. Along with most of the kids that play in the NHL today. The game is faster tighter, and there isn't room for those statistical powerhouses.

What we are seeing now is a few a rare few players that can break that 100 point barrier. I'd be shocked if anyone broke 130 ever again.

I’m not trying to get bogged down with this essay, not because it has no merit, but why waste my time when you couldn’t bothered to fact check your first Jagr stat shenanigans.

05-06, Jagr drops 123, at age 33.
06-07, Jagr drops 96 at age 34.
07-08, he finally falls off a ppg pace on a meh Rangers team, at age 35. And then continued to be a very solid nhler into his early 40s.

So, when current stars like Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin were putting up huge numbers as focal points of their team and in their prime ages for juggernaut seasons, a mid thirties Jagr was doing better. And if we want to talk about the best, Jagr basically played an even season at 33, as prime aged, 26, Hall of Fame Joe Thornton.

And again, Jagr couldn’t hold Mario or Wayne’s jock, they shared one.

Totally agree a 4th liner now is super skilled compared to a 4th liner back then. And there are more top level guys now at any one time, than back then.

But the greats are great. Mario would absolutely destroy this league, Rich man’s Getzlaf, ya if Bill Gates is the rich man in question.

And Wayne would be a rich man’s version of Datsyuk or Sedin, or whatever “soft” player, someone who didn’t watch him play call him.

Of course, none of your comments truly reflected on the thread or my point, which is Mario would be unstoppable with a modern stick in 87.

 

[CMDEADLY]

I’m not trying to get bogged down with this essay, not because it has no merit, but why waste my time when you couldn’t bothered to fact check your first Jagr stat shenanigans.

05-06, Jagr drops 123, at age 33.
06-07, Jagr drops 96 at age 34.
07-08, he finally falls off a ppg pace on a meh Rangers team, at age 35. And then continued to be a very solid nhler into his early 40s.

So, when current stars like Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin were putting up huge numbers as focal points of their team and in their prime ages for juggernaut seasons, a mid thirties Jagr was doing better. And if we want to talk about the best, Jagr basically played an even season at 33, as prime aged, 26, Hall of Fame Joe Thornton.

And again, Jagr couldn’t hold Mario or Wayne’s jock, they shared one.

Totally agree a 4th liner now is super skilled compared to a 4th liner back then. And there are more top level guys now at any one time, than back then.

But the greats are great. Mario would absolutely destroy this league, Rich man’s Getzlaf, ya if Bill Gates is the rich man in question.

And Wayne would be a rich man’s version of Datsyuk or Sedin, or whatever “soft” player, someone who didn’t watch him play call him.

Of course, none of your comments truly reflected on the thread or my point, which is Mario would be unstoppable with a modern stick in 87.

I admitted that Lemieux would dominate the league still. He's a 6'4 truck with a wicked shot. Don't know what else you got to say about that. Also scoring had upticked after the lockout ae penalties and otherwise were up, also Ovi Crosby and Malkin were 20 years old not exactly in their prime.

 

[sabrebuild]

I admitted that Lemieux would dominate the league still. He's a 6'4 truck with a wicked shot. Don't know what else you got to say about that. Also scoring had upticked after the lockout ae penalties and otherwise were up, also Ovi Crosby and Malkin were 20 years old not exactly in their prime.

Actually that is roughly their prime. Ovechkin’s best statistical years were his first 4-5 years. Early twenties are generally the highest production years for point producers. Same with Malkin and Crosby, tho Crosby’s injuries, derail him from being on track to be on a Mario or Gretzky path.

Penalties are irrelevant, this is not a total point conversation, it’s about how they compare to their peers playing under the same rules.

 

[CMDEADLY]

Actually that is roughly their prime. Ovechkin’s best statistical years were his first 4-5 years. Early twenties are generally the highest production years for point producers. Same with Malkin and Crosby, tho Crosby’s injuries, derail him from being on track to be on a Mario or Gretzky path.

Penalties are irrelevant, this is not a total point conversation, it’s about how they compare to their peers playing under the same rules.

Prime scoring is 23-24 I've know the statistical analysis. My point is you are comparing apples to oranges.

 

[CMDEADLY]

Prime scoring is 23-24 I've know the statistical analysis. My point is you are comparing apples to oranges.

Also scoring and penalties being up of course effects Jagr's point totals from those years.

 

[CMDEADLY]

Also last bit I'll post on that track of the thread the year Jagr put up 123 2005 as you are talking about, Crosby and Ovechkin at 18 years old put up 100 points as rookies. Your analysis is off just like most in this thread.

 

[authentic]

Watch some games from the early/mid 80s.

Compared to today, 2018:

- The skating (technique) was terrible
- The speed was horroible
- The pace of the game was pewee
- The stickhandling was on par with womens hockey today
- the forward's backchecking, defence, positioning etc. was terrible
- The defencemen's ability to skate backwards, pokecheck, be positional etc. was a horribly bad
- The goalies....look at the kind of goals that was scored and I don'tceven have to say how incredibly bad 99% of the goalies were, compared to today.


Are you seriously telling me that McDavid wouldn't completely destroy the NHL if he was sent back to 1980!?

The only thing making him not get 400+ points us if he got injured or if he lost motivation and startrd to do blow, after thinking it was too easy.

Seriously, I know it sounds disrespectful but it's 100% the truth. I don't doubt Gretzky could be a great player today, although he wouldn't be close to what he was then even with today's training and technology, but if anyone seriously doubts that Connor McDavid just as he is would have trouble averaging over 3 points per game (I personally think it would be more like 6 or 7 if he really wanted to) then you are honestly just dead wrong. This is coming from someone who has watched countless older games and loves old time hockey, youtube clips don't even do it justice. You watch a full game and you get a really good idea at how much better the players are today.

 

[authentic]

Any current nhl player would murder it if time traveled to 1980s with today's gear. Professional training with shooting, fitness and skating starts at peewee hockey now and no 1980s goalie could stop the lazers people do with today's sticks

With today's equipment there are guys not playing in the NHL who would outscore Gretzky if sent back in time, Connor McDavid? He would dominate it more than he would dominate the EHL.

 

[ovythegiraffe]

Also, if the players from the 80's were so bad compared to today's advanced speed demons, how was it that a Jagr was still putting up decent point totals in his 40's?

Because he's a elite level talent who was able to progress his game to match how the sport progressed. I know this is an odd comparison (kind of a good example because it has progressed rapidly), but if you look at skateboarding, the stuff the pros were doing in the 90's is what every kid can do nowadays. But the most talented skaters from that era have been able to progress their skating to keep up with the current level of the sport. They were in their physical prime in the 90's but do much harder stuff now in their late 30's because the things they would've been capable of doing with their talent hadn't even been thought of yet.

 

[Garl]

Because he's a elite level talent who was able to progress his game to match how the sport progressed. I know this is an odd comparison (kind of a good example because it has progressed rapidly), but if you look at skateboarding, the stuff the pros were doing in the 90's is what every kid can do nowadays. But the most talented skaters from that era have been able to progress their skating to keep up with the current level of the sport. They were in their physical prime in the 90's but do much harder stuff now in their late 30's because the things they would've been capable of doing with their talent hadn't even been thought of yet.

This is exactly what I am talking about. A very naive idea, that basically every day hockey players are getting better.

So, lets talk about "evolution" and "progress" of Jaromir Jagr.

So, you are saying, that at the age of 44-45 Jagr was better than Jagr at the age of 25.

So, what did Jagr improve in this 20 years?

When was he healthier? 25 or 45?
When was he faster?
When was he stronger?
When was he more skilled?
When was his head quicker?

So, in what way did he "evolve" to a better player? He learned how to skate properly maybe? Learned how to shoot right way? Learned how to stickhandle like the great McDavid?

So unless he recieved a blessing from the god of evolution, Charles Darwin the words about his alleged "evolution" are just an attempt to rationalize the fact, that evolved enlightened future supermen athletes were not able to keep up with 44 y.o Jagr.

PS Of course time doesn't stand still and everything is changing including hockey. And of course Jagr adjusted. But in no way does this mean he became a better player. He adjusted to his own physical weakening and to the changes in hockey and in equipment.

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

Although Jagr was producing points in his later years, he looked horrendously slow and was a defensive liability. He had to play with fast 2-way players to be effective. His size, patience, poise and experience allowed him to be useful and accumulate points (especially on the pp) but he was not a very effective player, contrast that to his play in the 90’s (had similar speed) and teams couldn’t get the puck from him, he would play keep away, dangle through teams and made it look easy. Jagr was also a fitness enthusiast stating he was in better shape in his late 30’s than he was in his 20’s.

 

[Esq]

Teleport present day McDavid back to 1980. He still has his modern equipment and training. How does his career unfold?

This makes it pretty hard to judge. That's a huge difference maker.

 

[ole ole]

He still wouldn't come close to Gretzky or Lemieux.

 

[67 others]

This makes it pretty hard to judge. That's a huge difference maker.

WHo is that in your avatar?

 

[CMDEADLY]

This is exactly what I am talking about. A very naive idea, that basically every day hockey players are getting better.

So, lets talk about "evolution" and "progress" of Jaromir Jagr.

So, you are saying, that at the age of 44-45 Jagr was better than Jagr at the age of 25.

So, what did Jagr improve in this 20 years?

When was he healthier? 25 or 45?
When was he faster?
When was he stronger?
When was he more skilled?
When was his head quicker?

So, in what way did he "evolve" to a better player? He learned how to skate properly maybe? Learned how to shoot right way? Learned how to stickhandle like the great McDavid?

So unless he recieved a blessing from the god of evolution, Charles Darwin the words about his alleged "evolution" are just an attempt to rationalize the fact, that evolved enlightened future supermen athletes were not able to keep up with 44 y.o Jagr.

PS Of course time doesn't stand still and everything is changing including hockey. And of course Jagr adjusted. But in no way does this mean he became a better player. He adjusted to his own physical weakening and to the changes in hockey and in equipment.

What in the hell are you taljibg about though? At 25 Jagr put up 102 points at 45 he put up 67,

 

[CMDEADLY]

With 43 assist mind you, so most of his production came from passing with 24 goals, that's a low end first liner, when you don't also take into account ice time and defensive liability.