McDavid & Draisaitl vs Matthews & W. Nylander

[KlefDown]

Matthews and Backlund/Nelson would be better for the team than McDavid and Nobody. If if there had to be a body since we need a full roster, we would have to add the League min to the equation.

I don't expect you to agree, I mean McDavid is infallible right?

what a dumb argument

McDavid + a semi-decent rookie on ELC >>> Matthews + Backlund/Nelson.

also your team doesn't have a Backlund/Nelson contract. it has a Patrick Marleau.

 

[Aceboogie]

what a dumb argument

McDavid + a semi-decent rookie on ELC >>> Matthews + Backlund/Nelson.

also your team doesn't have a Backlund/Nelson contract. it has a Patrick Marleau.

Lmao so true

I mean RNH and someone like say... Slavin > Toews. So RNH is pretty comparable to Toews given his lower contract

 

[BrannigansLaw]

what a dumb argument

McDavid + a semi-decent rookie on ELC >>> Matthews + Backlund/Nelson.

also your team doesn't have a Backlund/Nelson contract. it has a Patrick Marleau.

Oh yeah, it sure showed the two times Edmonton played Toronto this past year. I'm amazed the Leafs didn't just forfeit those games to avoid the embarrassment.

 

[Kamiccolo]

And you're severely overrating the Toronto duo.

Out West, people are bombarded by Eastern games. And, in Canada, last time I checked, Leafs games. I'm sure Oilers fans have a better grasp and have watched the Leafs players more than you've watched Oilers players considering that by the time most of the games start in Western timezones, you're in bed. As for the 50-40 line for Matthews, that's about where I expect him to top out in his career years but he is not a "borderline generational" player. This board is obsessed with the term and people have devalued it to a point where the case might as well be made that every player in the league is generational in one aspect or another.



And here's the problem. You wrap yourself up in hypocrisy when you think Matthews et al are going to make these linear and substantial leaps in improvement while McDavid stagnates while basically at the exact same point in his career and the exact same experience and the same age as Matthews. Anybody that watched him last season can easily attest to the fact that he has the potential to regularly exceed 110 points and likely hit 120+ a few years. It's what he would've gotten last year if he hadn't slumped in December and been saddled with Eberle a third of the season.

Here is where this theory fails. You guys hate getting bombarded with Toronto, so you spend all your time watching it? Look, I have a sports package and get MLB games. When I tune into sportsnet, they talk about the MLB. Even with all of this, I have never sat down and watched a full MLB game on TV.

Point being just because you HAVE access to the games, does not in any way guarantee you watch them. Also your point about most fans being in bed? The same applies to fans out west who are usually at work, commutting home, or doing generally anything else than rushing home at 4PM to watch the Leafs on TV unless they are a fan.

As for your 2nd paragraph, with the data we have available, we know that the biggest jump in production is always from rookie season > 2nd season. After that, it is a gradual progression. I would not be surprised to see McDavid put up 105 points or something like that. However, he will not see as big of a jump in his point totals from last year to this year as Matthews will based on the data available for player trends.

It also depends on other factors. As Oiler fans like to point out when defending Drai, he boosted McDavid's points playing with him. Well, is Drai going to be his full time winger? Or is he going to be the 2nd line C full time on his own line? If it's the former, then the Oilers have severely overpaid Drai. If it's the latter, who does Edmonton have that can replace Drai on McDavid's wing?

Lol, yeah you totally got those discounts with Kessel and Phanuef right? Also Marleau who just got signed under current management sign for a discount right?

Those were UFA contracts vs RFA contracts. Players will be more likely to take a discount during RFA years, and I don't recall anyone expecting Kessel or Phaneuf to take a discount. I think it was pretty much agreed upon Phaneuf would get 7x7 and Kessel at least 8M. The most I remember are some Leaf fans saying they wouldn't sign them to those deals, not that they would take a discount.

 

[KlefDown]

Oh yeah, it sure showed the two times Edmonton played Toronto this past year. I'm amazed the Leafs didn't just forfeit those games to avoid the embarrassment.

your arguments get weaker by the post.
check the standings. check the point leaders. check the playoff performance.

also McDavid is PPG+ vs Leafs and walks Reilly like he's walking his dog on a nice summer day

 

[Laineux]

Oh yeah, it sure showed the two times Edmonton played Toronto this past year. I'm amazed the Leafs didn't just forfeit those games to avoid the embarrassment.

Matthews against Edmonton
2 games 1 point 0.5p/g
McDavid against Toronto
3 games 8 points 2.67p/g

 

[Aceboogie]

Those were UFA contracts vs RFA contracts. Players will be more likely to take a discount during RFA years, and I don't recall anyone expecting Kessel or Phaneuf to take a discount. I think it was pretty much agreed upon Phaneuf would get 7x7 and Kessel at least 8M. The most I remember are some Leaf fans saying they wouldn't sign them to those deals, not that they would take a discount.

Wow is hard work lifting those goal posts to move them so far? Toronto doesnt get discounts and never has. Leaf fans needs to stop deluding themselves into believing Toronto is some magical desirable place to play. Theyve had to pay full value for all their RFAs, they have to overpay for UFAs and thats even if UFAs want to go to Toronto. Toronto is still picking up the scraps of Matt Martin or Ron Hainsey from the UFA garabage bin. When they do get a noteable on its a drastic overpay

 

[Kamiccolo]

what a dumb argument

McDavid + a semi-decent rookie on ELC >>> Matthews + Backlund/Nelson.

also your team doesn't have a Backlund/Nelson contract. it has a Patrick Marleau.

The only thing I dislike about McDavid going to Edmonton is how some of the Oilers fan base acts. I really, really want to like him, but Oiler fans make it really hard.

You know how people say Matthews gets shoveled into every convo to say how much better he is? Well it's that x1000, because at least people can make arguments that certain players are better or have better potential. With Oiler fans it's laughable to them if you even suggest someone is even close to McDavid.

That was what the poster was getting at. That Matthews + any 40 point player is better than McDavid by himself when not in a vacuum. Matthews + a 40 point player probably outscores McDavid surrounded by plugs, even if McDavid is individually better.

However, as they mentioned, there is no scenario that exists to Oiler fans where McDavid could ever have anything negative about him, or where he could ever lose.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

your arguments get weaker by the post.
check the standings. check the point leaders. check the playoff performance.

also McDavid is PPG+ vs Leafs and walks Reilly like he's walking his dog on a nice summer day

Your arguments get weaker by the post.

You do realize the Leafs had a ridiculous amount of rookies in the lineup all season right? I guess context doesn't matter at all for you. And I didn't realize that McDavid was playing with a semi-decent rookie on an ELC all season long? That would apply more to Matthews than McDavid oh wise one.

Oh and I checked playoffs stats, Matthews had a higher PPG than McDavid.

But then again who needs facts and context? It's better to just be delusional.

 

[Kamiccolo]

Wow is hard work lifting those goal posts to move them so far? Toronto doesnt get discounts and never has. Leaf fans needs to stop deluding themselves into believing Toronto is some magical desirable place to play. Theyve had to pay full value for all their RFAs, they have to overpay for UFAs and thats even if UFAs want to go to Toronto. Toronto is still picking up the scraps of Matt Martin or Ron Hainsey from the UFA garabage bin. When they do get a noteable on its a drastic overpay

Sorry, I must have missed where Leaf fans were suggesting this? I've seen hope that the players would take a discount in order to keep the team competitive, however I haven't seen anyone suggest players would take discounts only for Toronto.

Now, I have seen mention that UFA's would choose Toronto over other franchises based on their history and their comments (Example Tavares or Doughty who have both mentioned want to play here), however fans have said if they want to come here, they will need to take a discount. Perhaps there was a miscommunication with you and what is being said?

As for UFA's, Toronto is not unique in having to over pay to get them. I can't really agree that one of the better 4th liners in the NHL at the time and a guy who was playing top 4 minutes in a cup run are "Garbage bin" signings. However, all these players have filled a need which is veteran experience and most are on short term deals.

If you would like to discuss overpaying in UFA, perhaps we can move the discussion to Lucic and Russel?

 

[Aceboogie]

The only thing I dislike about McDavid going to Edmonton is how some of the Oilers fan base acts. I really, really want to like him, but Oiler fans make it really hard.

You know how people say Matthews gets shoveled into every convo to say how much better he is? Well it's that x1000, because at least people can make arguments that certain players are better or have better potential. With Oiler fans it's laughable to them if you even suggest someone is even close to McDavid.

That was what the poster was getting at. That Matthews + any 40 point player is better than McDavid by himself when not in a vacuum. Matthews + a 40 point player probably outscores McDavid surrounded by plugs, even if McDavid is individually better.

However, as they mentioned, there is no scenario that exists to Oiler fans where McDavid could ever have anything negative about him, or where he could ever lose.

Well this quite literally is a thread featuring McDavid and Matthews, of course McDavid will be discussed...

No he stated Matthews+ Backlund (aka a great contract). But hell, McDavid literally outscored Matthews by 31 points this year. So you can toss a 31 point player with Matthews and they just gets to McDavids offense. That ofcourse ignores all other aspects of the game McDavid excels at (check is Goals above replacement for quick example). And this further ignores the utterly stupid comparison tactic to simply "add" another 40 point player to things equal. Any 50 point player making under 6.5 mil is essentially "equal" to Pat Kane who makes 10 mil and scores *only* 80-90 points. Because hey, just add a 40 point player and magically those 2 players are a 90 point tandem for as much as 80 point Kane at 10 mil

 

[KlefDown]

The only thing I dislike about McDavid going to Edmonton is how some of the Oilers fan base acts. I really, really want to like him, but Oiler fans make it really hard.

You know how people say Matthews gets shoveled into every convo to say how much better he is? Well it's that x1000, because at least people can make arguments that certain players are better or have better potential. With Oiler fans it's laughable to them if you even suggest someone is even close to McDavid.

That was what the poster was getting at. That Matthews + any 40 point player is better than McDavid by himself when not in a vacuum. Matthews + a 40 point player probably outscores McDavid surrounded by plugs, even if McDavid is individually better.

However, as they mentioned, there is no scenario that exists to Oiler fans where McDavid could ever have anything negative about him, or where he could ever lose.

smh. every fan base is like that. Do you think Pens fans take it lightly when you underrate or criticize Crosby or compare him to a lesser player? or NE fans to Brady, or Messi and Barca?

The amount of screeching you hear from Leafs fans when Nylander gets compared to Ehlers or Matthews to anyone not named McDavid is unbearable. Leafs fans and media have been like that too if you haven't realized.
not to mention Babcock GOAT and Lou is best GM in league AINCECCCCCCCC

McDavid literally turned a Anaheim plug in Patrick Maroon (who skates like he's on cement) into a 27 goal scorer. McDavid makes anyone who plays with him better.

 

[Aceboogie]

Sorry, I must have missed where Leaf fans were suggesting this? I've seen hope that the players would take a discount in order to keep the team competitive, however I haven't seen anyone suggest players would take discounts only for Toronto.

Now, I have seen mention that UFA's would choose Toronto over other franchises based on their history and their comments (Example Tavares or Doughty who have both mentioned want to play here), however fans have said if they want to come here, they will need to take a discount. Perhaps there was a miscommunication with you and what is being said?

As for UFA's, Toronto is not unique in having to over pay to get them. I can't really agree that one of the better 4th liners in the NHL at the time and a guy who was playing top 4 minutes in a cup run are "Garbage bin" signings. However, all these players have filled a need which is veteran experience and most are on short term deals.

If you would like to discuss overpaying in UFA, perhaps we can move the discussion to Lucic and Russel?

10 posts up literally says Matthews and Nylander will take less. I used market contracts for what they could expect to take if they score a certain amount based on past comparables.

Lucic and Russell were overpaid 100%, however Im not deluding myself into thinking Edmonton should/will get discounts in UFA. Toronto is making similar overpayments in UFA right now as well. Leaf fans want to make little snarky comments about "living in Edmonton" tax, whilst they overpay to the same degree for free agents as well

 

[tacogeoff]

Edmonton duo easily

 

[Hunter368]

McDavid & Drai, easy. Not even that close TBH

 

[Aceboogie]

When Matthews signs for 10 mil, can we say Eberle + 40 point player > Matthews?

 

[Kamiccolo]

smh. every fan base is like that. Do you think Pens fans take it lightly when you underrate or criticize Crosby or compare him to a lesser player? or NE fans to Brady, or Messi and Barca?

The amount of screeching you hear from Leafs fans when Nylander gets compared to Ehlers or Matthews to anyone not named McDavid is unbearable. Leafs fans and media have been like that too if you haven't realized.
not to mention Babcock GOAT and Lou is best GM in league AINCECCCCCCCC

McDavid literally turned a Anaheim plug in Patrick Maroon (who skates like he's on cement) into a 27 goal scorer. McDavid makes anyone who plays with him better.

I haven't seen anyone mention Lou is the best in the league on any consistent basis. I have seen fans say that Lou has not made any poor moves and has done everything right so far, and they view the entire management team in the high end of the NHL.

However, Babcock was almost unilaterally seen as the best, if not then 2nd best before he signed in Toronto. Hence why so many fans told us he would never come here. He hasn't done anything to suggest otherwise since coming to Toronto, yet the opinion has changed to him being top 5 or worse for some reason. I'm sure it's unrelated to him being a part of the Leafs franchise...

You are right, McDavid does make anyone who plays with him better, he is an incredible hockey player. Watching him with Matthews at the worlds last year was a treat.

 

[KlefDown]

Your arguments get weaker by the post.

You do realize the Leafs had a ridiculous amount of rookies in the lineup all season right? I guess context doesn't matter at all for you. And I didn't realize that McDavid was playing with a semi-decent rookie on an ELC all season long? That would apply more to Matthews than McDavid oh wise one.

Oh and I checked playoffs stats, Matthews had a higher PPG than McDavid.

But then again who needs facts and context? It's better to just be delusional.

who got further? what about Drai's PPG? Nylanders? thats what at discussion here.
or regular season performance? you are being very selective it seems.

 

[Laineux]

Imagine trading Matthews for Lee Stempniak and Teuvo Teräväinen. Not only you get more offense, but you save like 7 million in cap space. You can add another 2 40 point guys with that.

You guys, it's obvious that having star players is overrated. Just get two 40 point guys cheaper. It's insane that teams haven't figured out this tactic yet.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

who got further? what about Drai's PPG? Nylanders? thats what at discussion here.
or regular season performance? you are being very selective it seems.

Did you even read the post I was replying to originally?

 

[Internet Explorer]

Well one of these players is extremely overrated....so I think it's obvious.

 

[PatrikBerglund]

McDavid isn't a Mikael Backlund or Brock Nelson better than Matthews.

I'd say this is too close to call with the 3.5M. I would likely take the Leafs due to the ability to spend 3.5 on another solid player to help the team. Oh and also bias, that plays into it as well.

Exactly.

Or don't even view it as another 3.5 mill player. Add those 3.5 million to what you can trade for/sign with the cap you have.

Instead of only having the cap to sign a third line player, Toronto can now add that free cap and have 7ish million to spend on a 1-2nd line player, capable of accumulating 55-65 points.

 

[ACC1224]

So if McDavid took a discount, why is it absurd that Matthews/Nylander/Marner will as well?

McDavid didn't take a discount.

 

[Laineux]

Exactly.

Or don't even view it as another 3.5 mill player. Add those 3.5 million to what you can trade for/sign with the cap you have.

Instead of only having the cap to sign a third line player, Toronto can now add that free cap and have 7ish million to spend on a 1-2nd line player, capable of accumulating 55-65 points.

Why not just trade Matthews and add two 50 point players? Seems like a great strategy.

Also you don't just get 60 point players from the free market like that. Oilers currently have 8 million free space in their cap. They still aren't in a position to add a 70 point player in their lineup, lol. From the free market you get a Patrick Marleau with 6.25 million.

McDavid makes a Patrick Maroon produce Marleau like points with 2 millions, along with outproducing a Matthews by 25 points.

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

I think you are under rating the Toronto duo, but I do not expect someone who hasn't followed them to agree. It is pretty close, Marner is an amazing play maker and has potential to be a PPG+ play making winger. Matthews is borderline generational and is coming off a historic season.

I see no reason why they couldn't replicate a Stamkos - MSL type chemistry such as when Stamkos scored 60 goals. If they played together getting top minutes and #1 PP time, I don't think it's unreasonable to see Matthews score 50 goals and 40-50 assists and Marner would probably be PPG as well with well over 55 assists.

Just stop it with this "person who hasn't seen them play so your opinion is invalid" ********.

There's literally a 47 point gap between Draisaitl McDavid and Matthews and Marner.

In what universe is 47 points close?