JDinkalage Morgoone
U of South Flurrida
There's a difference between being excited that you won the lottery and being excited that mom got Bagel Bites at the store.
Again, DFF, you hear someone use the term "excited", and you associate it with being gung-ho, delusional about a player's projection.
Expectations are relative. That means "excitement" is relative. Excitement means different things when talking about a prospect like Provorov or Konecny vs. a prospect like Fazleev or Myers.
Let's say every 4th-7th round pick is a $1 investment. We invested $1 in Fazleev. ~80% of similar investments are now worth maybe ~$.50, but Fazleev is still worth $1 or slightly more. People are "excited" that our investment is beating the market for now. That's all. No underlying delusion. No outlandish expectations of Fazleev turning into a top six forward. Just satisfaction that our investment is moving along at a pace better than his counterparts.
Certainly none of this either: "EVERYONE ELSE'S PROSPECTS SUCK". I'm somehow always surprised by your blatant strawmen when I remember that you're apparently an attorney. You should be better at interpreting opposing arguments when they're explicitly spelled out for you in detail.
Idk. I think those two things are a lot closer than you think. Bagel Bites are a homerun.There's a difference between being excited that you won the lottery and being excited that mom got Bagel Bites at the store.
Idk. I think those two things are a lot closer than you think. Bagel Bites are a homerun.
This all sounds well and good, but you made very general comments like the one I quoted that weren't directed at anyone in particular but instead the tendency of fans to assume all their picks are steals. This is very much NOT the case. You've been around long enough to see fans cry about how picks like Goulbourne, Amorosa, Drake, Suellentrop, Placek, Mathers, etc. were all terrible picks and far, far, far from steals.But see that isn't what is going on here, or at least isn't to what I was first responding. The original post was talking about his point totals and calling him a steal, etc. My response was a completely innocuous statement that the point totals really aren't anything about which to get excited. Which they are not. Then everyone starting whining that I am excitement police and his value has risen and bagel bites and blah blah blah here we are. If the posts were just, "Man, this sixth round pick appears to be projecting toward the NHL..." then I wouldn't have even responded. But that wasn't what the post was.
No, I never even remotely suggested that you think Fazleev sucks. No one has done that. It's yet another strawman (seriously, what is your deal with strawmen?).But that is what goes on here. The "opposing arguments" of which you speak are essentially people responding as if I am saying Fazleev sucks (or stuff like, "how excited should I be" or some other sarcastic remark). The only person that has actually responded with anything besides sarcasm or just arguing about me arguing is AppleYard who really hasn't shown me anything that would get me any more or less excited about the kid. Just that he has a shot to make the NHL, which I am certainly not arguing against.
A week or two ago it was "LOL Griffin Reinhart sucks!" without any defense of this large, defensemen. Meanwhile, suggesting that we might need to worry about Sam Morin if he doesn't make the team out of camp next season is laughable (defensemen take longer to develop...especially bigger defensemen! no need to worry! PATIENCE!). Certainly that has nothing to do with the fact that Reinhart has a different color jersey, right? Oh and the laughs that people have about Leafs fans and main board fans and overvaluing their prospects and undervaluing other teams' prospects is purely an outsider problem. Don't see any of that happening here! How many posts do we get about people lowballing us for Couturier, or how Zibanijed is better than/more valuable than Couturier, or how silly it is that someone would suggest that Tavares is as good or better than Giroux, and so forth and so on.
This all sounds well and good, but you made very general comments like the one I quoted that weren't directed at anyone in particular but instead the tendency of fans to assume all their picks are steals. This is very much NOT the case. You've been around long enough to see fans cry about how picks like Goulbourne, Amorosa, Drake, Suellentrop, Placek, Mathers, etc. were all terrible picks and far, far, far from steals.
Realistically, not many consider Fazleev a "steal". Most consider him a promising player relative to his draft position. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.
It just so happens that in the last couple drafts, we've been selecting players like Fazleev who progress very well relative to their counterparts. Fans like that and get "excited" because it means we're not selecting players that have zero projection 1-2 years removed from the draft.
No, I never even remotely suggested that you think Fazleev sucks. No one has done that. It's yet another strawman (seriously, what is your deal with strawmen?).
People respond sarcastically to you at this point because you've shown an unwillingness to understand things like what I am saying in this post and instead resorted to constructing dishonest caricatures of our "excitement".
As for your second paragraph, Reinhart, in particular, has shown very limited progression since his draft. Morin has not. Moreover, there are specific differences to their games (namely skating ability) that affect perception of both prospects. People don't like Reinhart's skill set for much the same reason people don't like Luke Schenn. That doesn't mean Morin should get a free pass at all. It really has nothing to do with Morin actually. You're shoehorning a comparison there to prove a point-- not because they are similar prospects whose trajectories are comparable.
Morin was drafted as a long-term project whose understanding of the game was expected to take a long time to develop. Reinhart was drafted as an already-developed defensive beast whose sense and positional awareness needed little refinement. Well, it turns out that that projection of Reinhart was off which means the premise behind his selection is being called into question. In comparison, the premise behind Morin's selection is still undetermined (ie, his understanding of the game is a work in progress and expected to develop over the long run). The panic button has been pushed on Reinhart because the fundamental impetus for his selection is no longer widely accepted.
I'm not arguing that Flyers fans are paragons of objectivity. Not even close. Just that there is nuance that you willfully ignore in order to make your point.
You guys just don't understand how privileged you are to have DFF here to regulate this forum with objectivity.
Chartier made the Canadian one, but he's a 5th rounder.
http://thestarphoenix.com/sports/ho...ed-to-team-canadas-world-junior-training-camp
http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=120201
Hopefully no one in San Jose is excited about that.
Crazy that a day is spent arguing because we have a 6th rounder playing well enough to increase his value to a 2nd/3rd rounder....and 1 person is upset by it.
I said it before, GM's don't sign everyone after being drafted. Guys are often NOT signed due to ;lack of progress in the draft+1/+2 seasons. So to say those years don't matter is complete BS. Is it the be all/end all? Of course not. It's merely a step to the next level. A level that most drafted where he was never gets to.
I wonder...what % of 6th rounders even make the NHL?
Also...I am to lazy to do the work...but does anyone else know is there were any 6th rounders drafted his year that DID make a WJC tryout camp besides him?
That's...not a strawman. That's an opinion. You're an attorney that doesn't know what a strawman is?That is what is happening though. People are using the strawmen arguments to rebut my posts. Here's one:
"Maybe he becomes a Troy Bouwer, or Marcus Kruger or Andrew Shaw. Those are quality depth forwards taken later in the draft that helped Chicago wins cups and continue to put forth a competitive team even after seasons of salary cap hell and purges. Maybe Marody becomes a Versteeg like player. Not every forward who helps a team win a cup is a superstar. You do need 3-4 line forwards too."
My argument is a strawman? What is this?
You know that's strange that you are saying that about Reinhart because all the scouting reports that I found from actual scouts (or professional media outlets that likely actual saw him play and aren't just bloggers watching YouTube clips and reading scouting reports) didn't have a bad word to say about his skating. It is also funny that when I posted them in that thread I didn't really get a response from any of the people talking about how poor his skating was and how everyone knew from the beginning he wasn't good at skating. I guess someone forgot to tell the scouts to put that in their scouting report. And the bottom line is this: both players were selected high and had high expectations. One (Reinhart) is written off around here. Another (Morin) is a case for patience. Say, I wonder if we asked some other fan bases about Morin if they would be as high on him as we are? Do you think they would get upset if I suggested that if he doesn't make the team next season there is a cause for concern?
You guys just don't understand how privileged you are to have DFF here to regulate this forum with objectivity.
That's...not a strawman. That's an opinion. You're an attorney that doesn't know what a strawman is?
That is someone suggesting his opinion on what Fazleev can become.
You actually distorted arguments (eg, "EVERYONE ELSE'S PROSPECTS SUCK"). That is a strawman.
It's as if you didn't read a word I said.
Reinhart was selected on draft day based on the following premise: He is nearly NHL ready, he has tremendous hockey sense and positional awareness that will transition very well and very quickly to the pro grame.
Morin was selected on draft day based on the following premise: He has terrific tools and a unique skill set. His sense and positional awareness will take years to develop and catch up with his raw physical skill set after some growing pains, but he has the potential to be a very unique player.
In the time since draft day, that premise for Reinhart has been abandoned. He was not nearly NHL ready. His hockey sense was not outstanding, and his transition has been far from seamless.
The same can not be said for Morin. He is still a work in progress. He is still fairly raw, and he's going through the growing pains that were expected.
That is not to say Morin will pan out. And it's not even to say that Reinhart won't! It's to say that when the fundamental premise behind a player's selection is shot, you must question the merits of the selection altogether. Morin's development has exactly what was expected. Reinhart's has not. It's really quite simple. Again, this does not exclude the possibility of Morin failing in similar fashion. It's only a rationale for the "panic" behind Reinhart right now. His trajectory is not going according to expectations. Morin's is. How can this be so confusing?
He never reads or understands anything other people write. That's why he belongs on your Ignore List.
For all the people saying I should be on their ignore list, there seems to be a lot of people responding to me. I would love it you dopes would ignore me so I wouldn't have to get into these draw out arguments. I know, I know, it is my fault that people respond to me and I shouldn't have said anything in the first place even if it was a harmless statement about my opinion! Only other people can have opinions and only if they are in line with what everyone else says! (UH OH! STRAWMAN, RIGHT?!LOLOLOLOLOLO)
Eh, I recall Reinhart's projection being similar. IIRC only Ryan Murray was expected to make the jump right away in 2012 (I could be remembering that wrong though). He was hyped as a top pair, if not #1 defenseman for sure, but IDK if anyone had him pegged as an 18 year old to go into the NHL. He made the NHL in his third year post draft for a minute and went back down to the AHL, and this year he is up with the big club if I am not mistaken. It isn't going as planned for Reinhart, as I'm sure he was projected to make it before now, but I also think most people had Morin making it this year or next year at the latest, yet when I suggested next season if he doesn't make it out of camp that there is no need to be worried about him.
I'm not gonna bother commenting on this, but I will say this:
Isn't it awesome that Fazleev gets to play with Sanheim and could be playing with Provorov for Russia! Great to start fostering that relationship. Can't wait to see them in LHV