Confirmed with Link: May 28, 2015: Flyers sign Radel Fazleev to entry level contract

DrinkFightFlyers

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Again, DFF, you hear someone use the term "excited", and you associate it with being gung-ho, delusional about a player's projection.

Expectations are relative. That means "excitement" is relative. Excitement means different things when talking about a prospect like Provorov or Konecny vs. a prospect like Fazleev or Myers.


Let's say every 4th-7th round pick is a $1 investment. We invested $1 in Fazleev. ~80% of similar investments are now worth maybe ~$.50, but Fazleev is still worth $1 or slightly more. People are "excited" that our investment is beating the market for now. That's all. No underlying delusion. No outlandish expectations of Fazleev turning into a top six forward. Just satisfaction that our investment is moving along at a pace better than his counterparts.

But see that isn't what is going on here, or at least isn't to what I was first responding. The original post was talking about his point totals and calling him a steal, etc. My response was a completely innocuous statement that the point totals really aren't anything about which to get excited. Which they are not. Then everyone starting whining that I am excitement police and his value has risen and bagel bites and blah blah blah here we are. If the posts were just, "Man, this sixth round pick appears to be projecting toward the NHL..." then I wouldn't have even responded. But that wasn't what the post was.

Certainly none of this either: "EVERYONE ELSE'S PROSPECTS SUCK". I'm somehow always surprised by your blatant strawmen when I remember that you're apparently an attorney. You should be better at interpreting opposing arguments when they're explicitly spelled out for you in detail.

But that is what goes on here. The "opposing arguments" of which you speak are essentially people responding as if I am saying Fazleev sucks (or stuff like, "how excited should I be" or some other sarcastic remark). The only person that has actually responded with anything besides sarcasm or just arguing about me arguing is AppleYard who really hasn't shown me anything that would get me any more or less excited about the kid. Just that he has a shot to make the NHL, which I am certainly not arguing against.

A week or two ago it was "LOL Griffin Reinhart sucks!" without any defense of this large, defensemen. Meanwhile, suggesting that we might need to worry about Sam Morin if he doesn't make the team out of camp next season is laughable (defensemen take longer to develop...especially bigger defensemen! no need to worry! PATIENCE!). Certainly that has nothing to do with the fact that Reinhart has a different color jersey, right? Oh and the laughs that people have about Leafs fans and main board fans and overvaluing their prospects and undervaluing other teams' prospects is purely an outsider problem. Don't see any of that happening here! How many posts do we get about people lowballing us for Couturier, or how Zibanijed is better than/more valuable than Couturier, or how silly it is that someone would suggest that Tavares is as good or better than Giroux, and so forth and so on.
 

Cyborg LeClair

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Uhh Reinhart is a 6'4" defensive defenseman whose skating is average at best. Morin is 6'7" with plus skating and still a ton of potential. They should not be compared.
 

Random Forest

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But see that isn't what is going on here, or at least isn't to what I was first responding. The original post was talking about his point totals and calling him a steal, etc. My response was a completely innocuous statement that the point totals really aren't anything about which to get excited. Which they are not. Then everyone starting whining that I am excitement police and his value has risen and bagel bites and blah blah blah here we are. If the posts were just, "Man, this sixth round pick appears to be projecting toward the NHL..." then I wouldn't have even responded. But that wasn't what the post was.
This all sounds well and good, but you made very general comments like the one I quoted that weren't directed at anyone in particular but instead the tendency of fans to assume all their picks are steals. This is very much NOT the case. You've been around long enough to see fans cry about how picks like Goulbourne, Amorosa, Drake, Suellentrop, Placek, Mathers, etc. were all terrible picks and far, far, far from steals.

Realistically, not many consider Fazleev a "steal". Most consider him a promising player relative to his draft position. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.

It just so happens that in the last couple drafts, we've been selecting players like Fazleev who progress very well relative to their counterparts. Fans like that and get "excited" because it means we're not selecting players that have zero projection 1-2 years removed from the draft.



But that is what goes on here. The "opposing arguments" of which you speak are essentially people responding as if I am saying Fazleev sucks (or stuff like, "how excited should I be" or some other sarcastic remark). The only person that has actually responded with anything besides sarcasm or just arguing about me arguing is AppleYard who really hasn't shown me anything that would get me any more or less excited about the kid. Just that he has a shot to make the NHL, which I am certainly not arguing against.

A week or two ago it was "LOL Griffin Reinhart sucks!" without any defense of this large, defensemen. Meanwhile, suggesting that we might need to worry about Sam Morin if he doesn't make the team out of camp next season is laughable (defensemen take longer to develop...especially bigger defensemen! no need to worry! PATIENCE!). Certainly that has nothing to do with the fact that Reinhart has a different color jersey, right? Oh and the laughs that people have about Leafs fans and main board fans and overvaluing their prospects and undervaluing other teams' prospects is purely an outsider problem. Don't see any of that happening here! How many posts do we get about people lowballing us for Couturier, or how Zibanijed is better than/more valuable than Couturier, or how silly it is that someone would suggest that Tavares is as good or better than Giroux, and so forth and so on.
No, I never even remotely suggested that you think Fazleev sucks. No one has done that. It's yet another strawman (seriously, what is your deal with strawmen?).

People respond sarcastically to you at this point because you've shown an unwillingness to understand things like what I am saying in this post and instead resorted to constructing dishonest caricatures of our "excitement".

As for your second paragraph, Reinhart, in particular, has shown very limited progression since his draft. Morin has not. Moreover, there are specific differences to their games (namely skating ability) that affect perception of both prospects. People don't like Reinhart's skill set for much the same reason people don't like Luke Schenn. That doesn't mean Morin should get a free pass at all. It really has nothing to do with Morin actually. You're shoehorning a comparison there to prove a point-- not because they are similar prospects whose trajectories are comparable.

Morin was drafted as a long-term project whose understanding of the game was expected to take a long time to develop. Reinhart was drafted as an already-developed defensive beast whose sense and positional awareness needed little refinement. Well, it turns out that that projection of Reinhart was off which means the premise behind his selection is being called into question. In comparison, the premise behind Morin's selection is still undetermined (ie, his understanding of the game is a work in progress and expected to develop over the long run). The panic button has been pushed on Reinhart because the fundamental impetus for his selection is no longer widely accepted.


I'm not arguing that Flyers fans are paragons of objectivity. Not even close. Just that there is nuance that you willfully ignore in order to make your point.
 

DrinkFightFlyers

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This all sounds well and good, but you made very general comments like the one I quoted that weren't directed at anyone in particular but instead the tendency of fans to assume all their picks are steals. This is very much NOT the case. You've been around long enough to see fans cry about how picks like Goulbourne, Amorosa, Drake, Suellentrop, Placek, Mathers, etc. were all terrible picks and far, far, far from steals.

Realistically, not many consider Fazleev a "steal". Most consider him a promising player relative to his draft position. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less.

It just so happens that in the last couple drafts, we've been selecting players like Fazleev who progress very well relative to their counterparts. Fans like that and get "excited" because it means we're not selecting players that have zero projection 1-2 years removed from the draft.

That's fine, but the post to which I was initially responding specifically mentioned his point totals and called him a steal. I responded by saying that the point totals didn't really excite me, and pointed out cogent reasons why (i.e., most the CHL leagues have league leaders his age drafted near, after, or not at all). With the exception of AppleYard, that turned into people responding to me as if I said Fazleev sucks (talking about how he's got a shot at the NHL (which I never argued), talking about how you need bottom six players (which I never argued), and so forth and so on) or talking about how I am the excitement police.



No, I never even remotely suggested that you think Fazleev sucks. No one has done that. It's yet another strawman (seriously, what is your deal with strawmen?).

That is what is happening though. People are using the strawmen arguments to rebut my posts. Here's one:

"Maybe he becomes a Troy Bouwer, or Marcus Kruger or Andrew Shaw. Those are quality depth forwards taken later in the draft that helped Chicago wins cups and continue to put forth a competitive team even after seasons of salary cap hell and purges. Maybe Marody becomes a Versteeg like player. Not every forward who helps a team win a cup is a superstar. You do need 3-4 line forwards too."

My argument is a strawman? What is this?

People respond sarcastically to you at this point because you've shown an unwillingness to understand things like what I am saying in this post and instead resorted to constructing dishonest caricatures of our "excitement".

People use the sarcastic responses because they don't have a legitimate response. It all goes back to the original post. Read the initial post that I quoted and my response and tell me that it is an unreasonable position to take and why. Avoid all the back and forth that has really clouded the issue.

As for your second paragraph, Reinhart, in particular, has shown very limited progression since his draft. Morin has not. Moreover, there are specific differences to their games (namely skating ability) that affect perception of both prospects. People don't like Reinhart's skill set for much the same reason people don't like Luke Schenn. That doesn't mean Morin should get a free pass at all. It really has nothing to do with Morin actually. You're shoehorning a comparison there to prove a point-- not because they are similar prospects whose trajectories are comparable.

Morin was drafted as a long-term project whose understanding of the game was expected to take a long time to develop. Reinhart was drafted as an already-developed defensive beast whose sense and positional awareness needed little refinement. Well, it turns out that that projection of Reinhart was off which means the premise behind his selection is being called into question. In comparison, the premise behind Morin's selection is still undetermined (ie, his understanding of the game is a work in progress and expected to develop over the long run). The panic button has been pushed on Reinhart because the fundamental impetus for his selection is no longer widely accepted.

I'm not arguing that Flyers fans are paragons of objectivity. Not even close. Just that there is nuance that you willfully ignore in order to make your point.

You know that's strange that you are saying that about Reinhart because all the scouting reports that I found from actual scouts (or professional media outlets that likely actual saw him play and aren't just bloggers watching YouTube clips and reading scouting reports) didn't have a bad word to say about his skating. It is also funny that when I posted them in that thread I didn't really get a response from any of the people talking about how poor his skating was and how everyone knew from the beginning he wasn't good at skating. I guess someone forgot to tell the scouts to put that in their scouting report. And the bottom line is this: both players were selected high and had high expectations. One (Reinhart) is written off around here. Another (Morin) is a case for patience. Say, I wonder if we asked some other fan bases about Morin if they would be as high on him as we are? Do you think they would get upset if I suggested that if he doesn't make the team next season there is a cause for concern?
 

Tripod

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Crazy that a day is spent arguing because we have a 6th rounder playing well enough to increase his value to a 2nd/3rd rounder....and 1 person is upset by it.

I said it before, GM's don't sign everyone after being drafted. Guys are often NOT signed due to ;lack of progress in the draft+1/+2 seasons. So to say those years don't matter is complete BS. Is it the be all/end all? Of course not. It's merely a step to the next level. A level that most drafted where he was never gets to.

I wonder...what % of 6th rounders even make the NHL?

Also...I am to lazy to do the work...but does anyone else know is there were any 6th rounders drafted his year that DID make a WJC tryout camp besides him?
 

DrinkFightFlyers

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Crazy that a day is spent arguing because we have a 6th rounder playing well enough to increase his value to a 2nd/3rd rounder....and 1 person is upset by it.

I said it before, GM's don't sign everyone after being drafted. Guys are often NOT signed due to ;lack of progress in the draft+1/+2 seasons. So to say those years don't matter is complete BS. Is it the be all/end all? Of course not. It's merely a step to the next level. A level that most drafted where he was never gets to.

I wonder...what % of 6th rounders even make the NHL?

Also...I am to lazy to do the work...but does anyone else know is there were any 6th rounders drafted his year that DID make a WJC tryout camp besides him?

That's where you're wrong. I made a completely harmless statement that elicited all these responses. One that again, I think if you look at what I said and to what I was responding, I think you all agree. Go back to my original post responding to someone calling him a steal and talking about his impressive point totals, etc. and then look at my response and explain to me what I said that was so egregious.

Am I the upset one, or is it the slew of people crying about what I said?
 

Striiker

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How is this Reinhart-Morin thing still confusing?

Morin was taken as a long term project, Reinhart not so much.

Morin has improved every year since being drafted, Reinhart has not.

Morin is still learning and improving, Reinhart is much further along in his development, aka closer to a finished product.

Skating is one of Morins biggest assets, Reinhart can't say the same.

By all accounts the Flyers are still high on Morin, Reinharts drafting team gave up on him.

They're very different prospects in very different situations. If this is the example you're going to use to complain about the objectivity of people on this board and double standards then you clearly don't have much of a case.
 

LegionOfDoom91

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F Pavel Kraskovsky (Russia)
D Adam Ollas Mattsson (Sweden)
F Axel Holmstrom (Sweden)
F Spencer Watson (Canada)

That's the only other selected players in the 6th & 7th rounds of the 2014 draft that are eligible for this tournament this year to make their camp rosters. Watson was already cut by Canada.
 

Random Forest

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That is what is happening though. People are using the strawmen arguments to rebut my posts. Here's one:

"Maybe he becomes a Troy Bouwer, or Marcus Kruger or Andrew Shaw. Those are quality depth forwards taken later in the draft that helped Chicago wins cups and continue to put forth a competitive team even after seasons of salary cap hell and purges. Maybe Marody becomes a Versteeg like player. Not every forward who helps a team win a cup is a superstar. You do need 3-4 line forwards too."

My argument is a strawman? What is this?
That's...not a strawman. That's an opinion. You're an attorney that doesn't know what a strawman is?

That is someone suggesting his opinion on what Fazleev can become.

You actually distorted arguments (eg, "EVERYONE ELSE'S PROSPECTS SUCK"). That is a strawman.

You know that's strange that you are saying that about Reinhart because all the scouting reports that I found from actual scouts (or professional media outlets that likely actual saw him play and aren't just bloggers watching YouTube clips and reading scouting reports) didn't have a bad word to say about his skating. It is also funny that when I posted them in that thread I didn't really get a response from any of the people talking about how poor his skating was and how everyone knew from the beginning he wasn't good at skating. I guess someone forgot to tell the scouts to put that in their scouting report. And the bottom line is this: both players were selected high and had high expectations. One (Reinhart) is written off around here. Another (Morin) is a case for patience. Say, I wonder if we asked some other fan bases about Morin if they would be as high on him as we are? Do you think they would get upset if I suggested that if he doesn't make the team next season there is a cause for concern?

It's as if you didn't read a word I said.

Reinhart was selected on draft day based on the following premise: He is nearly NHL ready, he has tremendous hockey sense and positional awareness that will transition very well and very quickly to the pro grame.

Morin was selected on draft day based on the following premise: He has terrific tools and a unique skill set. His sense and positional awareness will take years to develop and catch up with his raw physical skill set after some growing pains, but he has the potential to be a very unique player.


In the time since draft day, that premise for Reinhart has been abandoned. He was not nearly NHL ready. His hockey sense was not outstanding, and his transition has been far from seamless.

The same can not be said for Morin. He is still a work in progress. He is still fairly raw, and he's going through the growing pains that were expected.

That is not to say Morin will pan out. And it's not even to say that Reinhart won't! It's to say that when the fundamental premise behind a player's selection is shot, you must question the merits of the selection altogether. Morin's development has exactly what was expected. Reinhart's has not. It's really quite simple. Again, this does not exclude the possibility of Morin failing in similar fashion. It's only a rationale for the "panic" behind Reinhart right now. His trajectory is not going according to expectations. Morin's is. How can this be so confusing?
 

Curufinwe

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He never reads or understands anything other people write. That's why he belongs on your Ignore List.
 

DrinkFightFlyers

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That's...not a strawman. That's an opinion. You're an attorney that doesn't know what a strawman is?

That is someone suggesting his opinion on what Fazleev can become.

You actually distorted arguments (eg, "EVERYONE ELSE'S PROSPECTS SUCK"). That is a strawman.

I'm not sure you know what a straw man is. My original statement was in response to a post about point totals, the kid being a steal, etc. After that folks were responding to that post about how he has NHL potential, you need bottom six players, etc. That is a straw man. When you respond to an argument that wasn't made and play it off as if that was the argument I was making. I know you need bottom six players. I know Fazleev is trending toward the NHL. I'm not saying it wasn't a good pick. To respond to me with information about that, is the definition of a straw man. AppleYard's response, about player scoring at the same pace making the NHL, etc. is an appropriate response and an actual response to my post. Talking about his value and whether or not it was a good pick is not.

My quote where I said "EVERYONE ELSE'S PROSPECTS SUCK" was in reference to someone making a sarcastic response to my post asking for a list of players that he was allowed to be excited about, with a section about players to get "worried" about. So I responded sarcastically by asking if there is a list of players that I was not allowed to be excited about, with a section about everyone else's prospects sucking. That isn't really a strawman argument (or an argument at all)...that was just responding like a jerk to someone that responded to me like a jerk.

It's as if you didn't read a word I said.

Reinhart was selected on draft day based on the following premise: He is nearly NHL ready, he has tremendous hockey sense and positional awareness that will transition very well and very quickly to the pro grame.

Morin was selected on draft day based on the following premise: He has terrific tools and a unique skill set. His sense and positional awareness will take years to develop and catch up with his raw physical skill set after some growing pains, but he has the potential to be a very unique player.

In the time since draft day, that premise for Reinhart has been abandoned. He was not nearly NHL ready. His hockey sense was not outstanding, and his transition has been far from seamless.

The same can not be said for Morin. He is still a work in progress. He is still fairly raw, and he's going through the growing pains that were expected.

That is not to say Morin will pan out. And it's not even to say that Reinhart won't! It's to say that when the fundamental premise behind a player's selection is shot, you must question the merits of the selection altogether. Morin's development has exactly what was expected. Reinhart's has not. It's really quite simple. Again, this does not exclude the possibility of Morin failing in similar fashion. It's only a rationale for the "panic" behind Reinhart right now. His trajectory is not going according to expectations. Morin's is. How can this be so confusing?

Eh, I recall Reinhart's projection being similar. IIRC only Ryan Murray was expected to make the jump right away in 2012 (I could be remembering that wrong though). He was hyped as a top pair, if not #1 defenseman for sure, but IDK if anyone had him pegged as an 18 year old to go into the NHL. He made the NHL in his third year post draft for a minute and went back down to the AHL, and this year he is up with the big club if I am not mistaken. It isn't going as planned for Reinhart, as I'm sure he was projected to make it before now, but I also think most people had Morin making it this year or next year at the latest, yet when I suggested next season if he doesn't make it out of camp that there is no need to be worried about him.

He never reads or understands anything other people write. That's why he belongs on your Ignore List.

For all the people saying I should be on their ignore list, there seems to be a lot of people responding to me. I would love it you dopes would ignore me so I wouldn't have to get into these draw out arguments. I know, I know, it is my fault that people respond to me and I shouldn't have said anything in the first place even if it was a harmless statement about my opinion! Only other people can have opinions and only if they are in line with what everyone else says! (UH OH! STRAWMAN, RIGHT?!LOLOLOLOLOLO)
 

Garbage Goal

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For all the people saying I should be on their ignore list, there seems to be a lot of people responding to me. I would love it you dopes would ignore me so I wouldn't have to get into these draw out arguments. I know, I know, it is my fault that people respond to me and I shouldn't have said anything in the first place even if it was a harmless statement about my opinion! Only other people can have opinions and only if they are in line with what everyone else says! (UH OH! STRAWMAN, RIGHT?!LOLOLOLOLOLO)

Nobody is forcing you to respond. Or to act innocent when being passive aggressive as well as regularly provoking the rest of the board with ludicrous posts. Since you don't believe that's the case though, or maybe you do I don't know, I'll just stick with the fact that nobody is forcing you to respond.
 

Random Forest

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Not going to continue the discussion regarding what is or isn't a straw man. You've made plenty before. You've made several in this thread. Play it off as sarcasm if you'd like, but it does not make your argument any more valid.

Eh, I recall Reinhart's projection being similar. IIRC only Ryan Murray was expected to make the jump right away in 2012 (I could be remembering that wrong though). He was hyped as a top pair, if not #1 defenseman for sure, but IDK if anyone had him pegged as an 18 year old to go into the NHL. He made the NHL in his third year post draft for a minute and went back down to the AHL, and this year he is up with the big club if I am not mistaken. It isn't going as planned for Reinhart, as I'm sure he was projected to make it before now, but I also think most people had Morin making it this year or next year at the latest, yet when I suggested next season if he doesn't make it out of camp that there is no need to be worried about him.

Whether or not Reinhart was expected to jump in as an 18 year old isn't the point (he wasn't). The point is that he was drafted as a relatively finished product, IE, he didn't have much more developing left to be an NHL contributor. That premise has been shot.

And you're blatantly making things up with Morin's expectations. Some people (including myself) hoped he'd make it this year or next, but that was never the expectation. His expectations have always been that he would take several years to develop, and even if he did make it early, it would take several years for him to reach his potential.

Again, I'm trying to show you why Reinhart's "panic button" has been pushed and not Morin's. Not to suggest that Morin is and always will be better than Reinhart. They were not drafted with the same expectations, and your incessant desire to compare them exhibits an inability to recognize that fact (though I think you ignoring that point actually implies that I may have gotten through to you, so progress maybe?).
 

tuckrr

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I'm not gonna bother commenting on this, but I will say this:
Isn't it awesome that Fazleev gets to play with Sanheim and could be playing with Provorov for Russia! Great to start fostering that relationship. Can't wait to see them in LHV
 

Appleyard

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I'm not gonna bother commenting on this, but I will say this:
Isn't it awesome that Fazleev gets to play with Sanheim and could be playing with Provorov for Russia! Great to start fostering that relationship. Can't wait to see them in LHV

Plus Hagg & Lindblom played together last year WJC.

And Lindblom & Sandstrom are from the same town, are 4 1/2 months apart in age and have came up through the same system together, playing together at some point every season since 2011-12! Got to imagine that if both ended up in Orange & Black pretty much the whole of Gävle will end up Flyers fans!
 

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