Matthews vs Barkov vs Draisaitl

[Sidney the Kidney]

While it is true that people vastly underrate the impact of linemates on production (just as they do now with Matthews), and relative to many of his peers, Crosby's ES production was hurt by his ES linemates, Crosby's PP production made up a MASSIVE portion of his overall production at the beginning of his career, where he did have a ton of help and got more than "4 or so minutes".

In his 06/07 Hart, Lindsay, Art Ross-winning season, Crosby had over 50% of his total points on the PP.

Or you could look at it another way. If Crosby had a "dynamic duo" at ES like a lot of his peers do, his overall totals would have been even more massive and the gap between him and the next guy would have been more pronounced.

If Crosby had his "Backstrom" or his "St. Louis" at even strength that season, maybe instead of 120 points he's got 130+ because he'd still be getting that PP production, but would also see a huge bump in ES production as well. Or maybe the year he finished 3 points behind H. Sedin for the scoring title, despite the fact Sedin had his twin 85 point brother next to him while Crosby had an injured Kunitz and an old 45 point Guerin next to him, he has another scoring title. Or the year he finished 3 points behind Jamie Benn for the Art Ross, despite Benn having Seguin at ES and Crosby having Hornqvist and the ghost of Kunitz.

Those are the type of things I think people overlook when it comes to talking about how much more Malkin helps Crosby's stats compared to players who play with stars (just not as good as Malkin) at ES do.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Or you could look at it another way. If Crosby had a "dynamic duo" at ES like a lot of his peers do, his overall totals would have been even more massive and the gap between him and the next guy would have been more pronounced.

Yeah, it probably would.

I have said all along that Crosby's linemates held back his production level at ES, and that people don't grasp the considerable impact of linemate quality on production. There is a reason that you often find duos near the top of the point leaderboard. Most stars had more help from their linemates at ES than Crosby, and if everybody had equal linemate quality, the gap between Crosby and the rest of his peers would be bigger.

All I am saying is that you can't exactly say that Malkin didn't ever significantly contribute to Crosby's point totals when, at times, PP production made up to more than half of Crosby's total production and he played with Malkin on the PP.

Linemates and PP opportunity are two of the biggest factors that skew production. While Crosby gets undervalued due to linemates, which have been worse than his peers, he has at times been overvalued because of the PP opportunity/advantages he has gotten, which has been greater than his peers. This meant that the amount that he was undervalued was a little more balanced overall.

Matthews is very similar in that he has had much worse ES linemates than his peers, which results in being undervalued, but unlike Crosby, he has also been at a significant disadvantage when it comes to PP opportunity/advantages, as he was on the 2nd PP unit with comparably bad linemates for 2/3 of his career to date while getting less PP time than his peers for his entire career to date. This results in him being heavily undervalued.

 

[bobholly39]

Yeah, it probably would.

I have said all along that Crosby's linemates held back his production level at ES, and that people don't grasp the considerable impact of linemate quality on production. There is a reason that you often find duos near the top of the point leaderboard. Most stars had more help from their linemates at ES than Crosby, and if everybody had equal linemate quality, the gap between Crosby and the rest of his peers would be bigger.

All I am saying is that you can't exactly say that Malkin didn't ever significantly contribute to Crosby's point totals when, at times, PP production made up to more than half of Crosby's total production and he played with Malkin on the PP.

Linemates and PP opportunity are two of the biggest factors that skew production. While Crosby gets undervalued due to linemates, which have been worse than his peers, he has at times been overvalued because of the PP opportunity/advantages he has gotten, which has been greater than his peers. This meant that the amount that he was undervalued was a little more balanced overall.

Matthews is very similar in that he has had much worse ES linemates than his peers, which results in being undervalued, but unlike Crosby, he has also been at a significant disadvantage when it comes to PP opportunity/advantages, as he was on the 2nd PP unit with comparably bad linemates for 2/3 of his career to date while getting less PP time than his peers for his entire career to date. This results in him being heavily undervalued.

Kind of jumping in here mid conversation - but it's truly amazing if you look at the direct correlation that exists between Sidney Crosby's best seasons and the seasons in which Malkin missed the most games. Outside of 2007 (Malkin's rookie year) - it's practically in exact order. In Crosby's best season, Malkin missed the most games. In his 2nd best season, Malkin missed the 2nd most games, etc.

I don't disagree that Malkin/Crosby helped each other out offensively, on the powerplay at least - but at the same time they both had their very best individual seasons when the other wasn't present (2012 for Malkin). So speaks volumes to their abilities.

On topic - I have no idea why we're discussing Crosby and Malkin in this thread. I'll vote Matthews here - but I honestly feel it's "flip a coin" as to who ends up better, as all 3 are great.

 

[HOPE]

funny part is Barkov as probably the least home fan who voting for him and he's still winning the vote!

Barkov
Matthews


Draisaitl


Nothing against Leon!

 

[McFlash97]

funny part is Barkov as probably the least home fan who voting for him and he's still winning the vote!

Barkov
Matthews


Draisaitl


Nothing against Leon!

Pfff...hahaha

Credibility out the door.

 

[McFlash97]

The problem Matthews has is Draisaitl is twice as good of a playmaker and nearly as good of a goal scorer. Draisaitl is also better defensively and a more reliable two way player.

Still think Drai also has a better one timer.

 

[HOPE]

Pfff...hahaha

Credibility out the door.

coming from a Oilers fans.

Credibility out the door.


i'm sorry Drai is awesome, Barkov and Matthews are better.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

funny part is Barkov as probably the least home fan who voting for him and he's still winning the vote!

Barkov
Matthews


Draisaitl


Nothing against Leon!

Edmonton and Toronto have a combined population of less than 4 million.

Finland has a population of over 5 million.

 

[WetcoastOrca]

Three great players.
Tough call between Drai and Barkov but I think I take Drai as the proven guy.
Then Matthews just behind the other two as Drai is much more proven and Barkov brings that elite two way game.

 

[ijuka]

Well alot of things are going his way as of late..

Seems everything is going in.

Still would like to see what he could do centering his own line.

What? Everything is going in? You've not been watching the Oilers, have you? Draisaitl could have scored so much more than he has.

Okay, I'm a bit late with this reply.

 

[Dache]

Edmonton and Toronto have a combined population of less than 4 million.

Finland has a population of over 5 million.

Germany has a population over 80 million.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Germany has a population over 80 million.

And hockey ranks well below football in Germany. It's not as if there are a ton of German fans flooding these threads and voting for Draisaitl. Where as Finnish fans come out in droves to vote for their players in these polls.

 

[Dache]

And hockey ranks well below football in Germany. It's not as if there are a ton of German fans flooding these threads and voting for Draisaitl. Where as Finnish fans come out in droves to vote for their players in these polls.

I don’t think droves is as many as you think. Yes they have a fair sized contingent on this board but using the entire countries population is not the right way to emphasize that

 

[Steven Toast]

Edmonton and Toronto have a combined population of less than 4 million.

Finland has a population of over 5 million.

Toronto has 6 million people. Edmonton 1.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Toronto has 6 million people. Edmonton 1.

I am talking about the city of Toronto, not the GTA.

 

[Steven Toast]

I am talking about the city of Toronto, not the GTA.

Right, because suburban Toronto is def not Leafs country right?

 

[koyvoo]

Is it too early to revisit the “more ice time guarantees more pts” argument yet?

 

[Tad Mikowsky]

Is it too early to revisit the “more ice time guarantees more pts” argument yet?

No, because Matthews supporters will find some way to contort their point.

Matthews doesn’t seem any better with the increased ice time. He seems worse. But it’s also still early.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

No, because Matthews supporters will find some way to contort their point.

Matthews doesn’t seem any better with the increased ice time. He seems worse. But it’s also still early.

I ran the numbers and it looks like if draisaitl played 0 minutes a game he would have 0 points, so he’s clearly the worse.

 

[Coffey]

coming from a Oilers fans.

Credibility out the door.


i'm sorry Drai is awesome, Barkov and Matthews are better.

Based on what metric?
Not playing with McDavid hurr durr?

 

[Keeptdos]

Edmonton and Toronto have a combined population of less than 4 million.

Finland has a population of over 5 million.

Yes because NHL is also so popular over here due to timezone difference. And we don't always vote Finns. When it's close to a tie you pick the one you support but that is with every fan base.

 

[Prarievarg]

I'm confused. I can't answer your two questions with one name.

 

[King1s]

The amount of stupidity on this thread. Matthews is nowhere close to Draisaitl

 

[34]

The amount of stupidity on this thread. Matthews is nowhere close to Draisaitl

Matthews has had a tough start to the season. With the coaching change/system change it will take time to get going.

Matthews will be roaring back soon. Take that to the bank.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Draisaitl is on a different level at this point in time.

Barkov is a multi dimensional Center. Excellent Scorer who provides consciousness 2 way play for The panthers.

Matthews is a shooting Center with mediocre playmaking skills. Who hasn’t been good defensively for 2 years now. Pretty one dimensional if you ask me. He’s a sniper playing center.