Dude loves L.I., loves the team, loves playing with Tavares. I bet he stays with the team and signs for a lot less than he could get on the open market.
Speculation: Matt Moulson : 6mil on the open market??
- Thread starter FeedingFrenzy
- Start date
bigtim1988
YES! YES! YES! YES!
Real easy. He will pot 25-35 goals this year, and have more assists than goals. Next year JT will be along the wall with the puck, and you guys want him to depend on Josh Bailey or Anders Lee or whoever else to get the puck by the goalie. With all the "inhouse talent", he is still our best scorer whose first name is not John.
I see him working harder in the offensive zone, although it is only two games in.
We are trying to acquire talent, at least we should be.
Besides, he looks like our new shootout specialist!
MatthewBarnabysTears
Registered User
- Mar 18, 2013
- 2,579
- 575
Somehow, people seem to think that goal scoring is the one skill that comes to guys naturally, that anyone could do if they just play hard and get in the right position. That's obviously wrong. Look at the goal Moulson scored last night. Sure, it was a beautiful pass from Tavares, but Moulson was then able to execute a rapid, perfect backhand. Do people really think that kind of technique and muscle memory doesn't require incredible amounts of work? Moulson has a unique gift that he's honed; if he walks, we can't just replace him with some interchangeable part and expect things to work out.
SI90
Registered User
I equate it to this. I had a brain fart earlier and though of the reason why Moulson is as good as he is without being as good as he should be (all around player 2-way).
When someone knows more than one language..SOMETIMES they think in one and speak in another. For example, when I speak German...I think English first about 80% of the time, THEN I translate it in my head and speak the words.
I see Moulson doing the same, but with Lacrosse and Hockey.
I think MM plays Hockey like he plays Lacrosse. Both are rough sports, but I don't think there is what one would call a "body check" or "finishing your checks". It almost looks like he is playing Lacrosse on the ice. Think about it. He is always ready to catch a pass or deflect a pass into the net.
Anyway..that was my wacky theory of the day.
When someone knows more than one language..SOMETIMES they think in one and speak in another. For example, when I speak German...I think English first about 80% of the time, THEN I translate it in my head and speak the words.
I see Moulson doing the same, but with Lacrosse and Hockey.
I think MM plays Hockey like he plays Lacrosse. Both are rough sports, but I don't think there is what one would call a "body check" or "finishing your checks". It almost looks like he is playing Lacrosse on the ice. Think about it. He is always ready to catch a pass or deflect a pass into the net.
Anyway..that was my wacky theory of the day.
I see these posts about our inhouse talent, bringing Strome/Lee next season to replace Moulson, but how many 30 goal seasons do these kids have in the NHL??? Not saying they're not going to pan out because I'm a huge Strome fan. What I am saying is Matt Moulson has consistently put up 30+ goals since joining our team. Even in a shortened season, he was second in points! You dont just let one of your best goal scorers walk away. Moulson should be resigned. Worked his ass off, has great chemistry with JT, can score goals...we would be stupid to just let him walk.
That is a fair analysis of the goal with Moulson doing more than just getting a stick on it to finish the play. It is also worth noting that Kyle looks like he will need a brain transplant to actually contribute with goals on that line, so "anyone can do it" when you really mean anyone in the world... No, not so much. But, there are many forwards who I believe could while at the same time providing lots of other things like real back checking, real neutral zone pressure, real passes, etc., and the net result being:
1) More goals from Tavares
2) A much improved (+/-) for that line.
The number one gripe with having Matt "All I do is score" Moulson on that line, with no balance on the other wing to compensate, is that no matter how much they score, they give up more goals than they get or wildly limit what should be a highly positive (+/-) unit.
I mean let's get real here. What good is a first scoring unit that costs you more goals than they get, and thus, games? It sucks as designed. I can live with Tavares' flaws as he is getting better. No one, not even the haters, can dispute that fact because he improves significantly every year. Moulson? He stopped improving the day they put him alongside of Tavares and what is worse is when they put him anywhere else he disappears like Jeff Tambelini.
If Matt is a pure 30 goal scorer, why can't he replicate that with other linemates? Maybe because he needs to ride shotgun to a Hart Trophy candidate to get 30 goals from his stick? That means the Isles have this cart COMPLTELY ass backwards. They went out and got JT to complete that franchise gem named Moulson? If so then they need to put the bottle of Stupid down and go get JT a complimentary piece. If we had just one I and many others could likely stomach Moulson's minus-sum game, but we don't. Until we do he stands way out as an issue.
ScaredStreit
Registered User
Am I the only one who remembers tons of people on these forums claiming that PAP was made by JT, and wasn't worth the money he'd sign for?
How did that turn out for us again?
How did that turn out for us again?
For the record, I'm still glad we didn't pay PAP the money. He may be playing well, good for him, I just didn't think much of his game in all 3 zones. As for Moulson, same thing. If he takes 4 - 4.5, great. I'm pretty sure his salary will not have an avg cap hit higher then JT. Secondly, if we are going to spend that kind of money, one would have to believe there is a good player available for that money that would be able to contribute in all 3 zones. Again, just my opinion, I'm sure many disagree...which is cool
Another consideration is whether Wang is going to spend or not. If the move to Brooklyn means the Isles spending mid-upper level of the cap, then they can absorb an overpayment to keep Moulson.
Right now, the team has a cap hit of about $50M. You figure next year, Strome replaces Bouchard (a cap savings) and we need to replace Regin and Nabokov. Most of our team is signed for at least 2 more years.
So, if the Cap is somewhere around $68M next year, the floor would be $54M. If Wang is willing to go up to the $60M range, you can re-sign Moulson at $5.5-6M (a $2-2.5M increase), improve in goal, and add another key player without any long term negative effect.
If Wang wants to keep the payroll closer to $54M, that means we can't afford to overpay MM and improve in goal or bring in another player.
Right now, the team has a cap hit of about $50M. You figure next year, Strome replaces Bouchard (a cap savings) and we need to replace Regin and Nabokov. Most of our team is signed for at least 2 more years.
So, if the Cap is somewhere around $68M next year, the floor would be $54M. If Wang is willing to go up to the $60M range, you can re-sign Moulson at $5.5-6M (a $2-2.5M increase), improve in goal, and add another key player without any long term negative effect.
If Wang wants to keep the payroll closer to $54M, that means we can't afford to overpay MM and improve in goal or bring in another player.
This is very true.
If Moulson leaves, we will be losing a specific skillset that doesn't appear to exist with any other player in the organization.
I remember watching Dave Andreychuk (granted, a different player than Moulson), who did not skate well and really didn't always look great as a player, but he had incredible nose for the net and ability to get things done in tight.
It doesn't grow on trees and plenty of teams will value it.
This said, a Moulson has to play with a bit of a superstar in order to max out this ability. If others aren't getting that puck to the net or to areas where he's hanging around, he's not gonna produce much.
lacunacoil777
Registered User
- Feb 11, 2013
- 512
- 1
Let Moulson walk, and sign one of those other super star free agents that are allways trying to sign with the Islanders.
redbull
Boss
- Mar 24, 2008
- 12,593
- 654
Turned out just fine. Parenteau's getting points and playing the same way he did here. Last year with Duchene and this year with MacKinnon. Good offensive player, prone to turnovers and mistakes, excels on bad teams -but a limited player who you don't want on the ice in certain situations.
Just because a player gets points doesn't mean he's a good player. And some players don't score much but are very solid. Like our own Fransie. Cizikas and McDonald as well. Dave Bolland has been outstanding for Toronto in replacing Grabovski.
Moulson does everything poorly as a hockey player, except score goals. That has a value and it's NOT $6MM. He's a player you have to insulate, one you have to compensate for on the ice. Nothing wrong with that, not everyone's perfect but to ignore that fact just because he scores goals is not right.
If Parenteau scores 60pts this year and Boyes scores 12 pts, does it really matter, one way or the other? Neither would have worked out here and the stats have little to do with it.
Isles play great when they play with energy and emotion. They were at their best last year and Moulson scored ONE ES goal in 30PLUS games - he's not as important as many think.
I feel like I'm dumping on Matty all the time and I don't intend to. I like Moulson, I think he's an amazing goal scorer, under-appreciated for that rare and valuable skill. I'd like him to re-sign and my gut still tells me he'll sign a 4 year deal at $4.5ish but he is what he is. He's not going to get any better, skate any faster, win puck battles. He might learn to work harder and finish checks (like he did in the playoffs last year and has worked pretty hard so far this year) and that's all you can ask of him. And all you should pay for him.
Both Strome and Lee are knocking on the door though. Not enough seats for all those *****.
E_Godard
Registered User
4mil per to a guy who consistently bags 30 goals a season is not going to happen. If we dont sign him till the end of the year, expect we will be paying even more then he would command today. Failure to extend his contract would be a massive mistake.
The point is not whether or not the in house talent can replace Moulson's production, that is irrelevant to the equation. The POINT is Moulson is NOT worth the money he has coming to him bottom line. The Islanders are blessed with plenty of cap space at the moment, more than any team in the NHL. That cap space will be very valuable in the coming seasons allowing us to keep this team together while every one hits there prime around the same time, we "could" become the Blackhawks if everything works out. We shouldn't be wasting millions of dollars worth of cap space on a one dimensional player. Now if he takes a pay cut to stay that is another story. Moulson is not worth a cent more than 4.5 million.
MatthewBarnabysTears
Registered User
- Mar 18, 2013
- 2,579
- 575
Genuine question: How are people calculating these values? The way I see it, players are "worth" whatever similarly situated players (meaning, UFAs need to be compared to other UFAs) receive on the open market — factoring in inflation as the cap increases, which it will this offseason. How are other people arriving at such precise dollar values?
Are you an agent? So Mark Streit is worth what the Flyers gave him? My calculations comes from watching hockey 20+ years. Moulson is not a great player, he does one thing well and when the playoffs came around he was dropped from the top line because he wasn't doing the one thing he did well and all his deficiencies became glaring under the spot light of the playoffs. I don't want to pay a guy like that what the market deems him worthy of. That is how teams get themselves in trouble, just look at the Leafs of the last 20 years, or today's flyers. You don't want to get tied down to a long term big salary contract if the guy isn't 100% completely worth it.
Nothing personal, i like Moulson as a person and as a player but i'm not willing to spend market value to keep him. I don't think he is worth it and i think the Islanders will be better off in the long run keeping that cap space available for someone else.
Bingo!!! I don't think anyone is questioning what he would get in the open market if he chooses to test free agency. Someone will give him 6mil +. The question really boils down to.....is he worth it to the Islanders at that price. I'm not so sure he worth that kind of money. It may all be a mute point because I don't believe Snow will offer more then what JT makes (6mil salary with a 5.5 cap hit). From Moulson's camp, how much of a home discount is he willing to take if he truely loves playing here and with JT. Market - discount = $5mil.
lacunacoil777
Registered User
- Feb 11, 2013
- 512
- 1
Which player on the Islanders should they EVER sign as a UFA besides Tavares? None likely is what you will say. Cause no other player is going to the hall of fame and there fore none of them are worth what other teams have no problem paying UFA. That apparently Is Wangs plan to build the Islanders, Tavares + AHL free agents + players who are restricted free agents and are Islanders property. That is not a recipe for a winning NHL franchise.
blinkman360
Loyal Players Only
I want to keep Moulson, but I don't see how you can make claims like this just because someone doesn't want the Isles to give him $6M per. There are valid concerns, both ways. If you give him the contract, you risk having a guy tied up for big $$ who might disappear everytime the playoffs roll around. If you don't give him the contract, you lose out on a lot of goals and risk not being able to replace them. Maybe even hurt the locker room a bit.
I'd love to keep Matty here, but even I'm not sure if I'd give him $6M if it were up to me. If we let him walk, IMO the only saving grace we have is Tavares. Even if we can't find someone to replace Moulson's 30-35 goals, you can stick a playmaker like Bailey in that spot; hope he hits 20-25 goals; and hope Tavares splits the difference and picks up the other 10-15. Playing between Bailey and Strome, two guys with high-end skill, vision, and passing ability, Tavares could end up hitting Stamkos levels as far as goals are concerned.
Maybe that wouldn't be and ideal scenario, but I don't think Matt should be given a blank check just because we might not be able to replace his goals(at least not right away). Who knows, maybe a Bailey-Tavares-Strome line will score the same exact amount of goals as the Moulson-Tavares-Okposo line, but also provide more in every other category.
Bailey - Tavares - Strome
Grabner/Lee - Nelson - Okposo
Lee/Grabner - Nielsen - Clutterbuck
Martin - Cizikas - McDonald
I really don't think that lineup is much worse than what we have out there right now... it could honestly be better. At this point, I hope we are able to keep Matty, and I think we will(I don't see him asking for $6M, TBH), but I won't panic if we don't. Nor should anyone else.
lacunacoil777
Registered User
- Feb 11, 2013
- 512
- 1
Theres a lot of fans that don't and wont pay wang money for hockey tickets if he will never pay the going rate for his free agents or anyone elses, (4th liners and 38 year old goalies aside). Lets hope this management style is something that doesn't bother Tavares.
redbull
Boss
- Mar 24, 2008
- 12,593
- 654
Not exactly fair. It's not too often a core player makes it to UFA to begin with. Zach Parise and Ryan Suter are two recent ones, under some unique circumstances, but most teams lock up core players and allow others to walk (or be traded, like Phil Kessel from BOS, for example).
Snow's done an amazing job of locking up certain players - like Bailey, Okposo, Grabner, Tavares, Hamonic, Fransie AND a really nice job on shorter term deals to guys like Strait, Hickey and Visnovsky and Nabby.
Walkers like Jason Blake, Ryan Smyth, PA Parenteau, Mark Streit, Brad Boyes - won't cry too much for these guys.
We'll see what becomes of Moulson and MacDonald. I'd like both signed but at a price. Imagine we kept Parenteau and Streit on 4 year deals and then have Strome, Nelson & Donovan (maybe Reinhart and Pulock!) coming off ELCs and no money to sign them? (budget/cap doesn't matter)
The Leafs bought out Grabovski and had just pennies left for Kadri and Franson, two key players, and an unmovable JM Liles in the AHL and still on the cap.
lacunacoil777
Registered User
- Feb 11, 2013
- 512
- 1
The way I see it is if Tavares doesn't see the islanders make Moulson a going rate UFA contract, his best friend on the team and a 1st line player, Tavares will say to himself "this owner won't pay for anyone who doesn't sign discounted deals...why in the world would I sign another contract?"
