Speculation: Matt Duchene

trentmccleary

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We sure did, but Heater forced us to deal with one team or nothing, and Spezza was on the back end of his career, was due a large contract, and was also able to nix a better deal.

What are you even talking about? Duchene himself, playing for our team, is better than the sum of the parts we gave up.

YOU got screwed because now all of a sudden Bowers is awesome, Turris is a #1 centre, and next year will be Hughes for sure!! The team didn't get screwed because Turris is a #2 centre, Bowers is a tier 2 prospect, and the first next year will be what it is, but is against the odds of being #1.

We have our #1 centre in his prime, try and enjoy it.

Edited

That's quite a biased view necessary to make this deal look like anything but a colossal failure.

The Duchene deal was basically forced, dragged out so long in front of everybody.
Duchene had declined for years already, despite his young age.
Duchene needs to be signed to large contract or the deal looks even worse than it does now (just like the stupid Bobby Ryan deal that was a disaster from Day 1).
No, our team got screwed because they keep giving up way more than they get in every trade and have for at least a decade.
Duchene is a slight upgrade on Turris, nothing more. It may never be perceptible in the standings; which is huge problem considering the price we paid.
Bowers was a 1st round pick that we needed to play on the team at an entry level salary for a few years.
So was our 2019 1st rounder.

2018 (2.97 GPG) was the highest scoring season since 2005-2007 (3.08 & 2.95), back when Spezza and Heatley would average 1.30 points per game. Duchene just finished 76th in scoring with 0.72 PPG; those are Mike Fisher stats. We have a 1st line center now? o_O

While I haven't obsessed about this trade over the past 6 months... I've consistently hated it when it was proposed, when it happened, after it happened and everyday since. There aren't enough spin-o-ramas in the world to convince me that Matt Duchene is worth Heatley or Spezza, let alone way more than either.
 
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topshelf15

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That's quite a biased view necessary to make this deal look like anything but a colossal failure.

The Duchene deal was basically forced, dragged out so long in front of everybody.
Duchene had declined for years already, despite his young age.
Duchene needs to be signed to large contract or the deal looks even worse than it does now (just like the stupid Bobby Ryan deal that was a disaster from Day 1).
No, our team got screwed because they keep giving up way more than they get in every trade and have for at least a decade.
Duchene is a slight upgrade on Turris, nothing more. It may never be perceptible in the standings; which is huge problem considering the price we paid.
Bowers was a 1st round pick that we needed to play on the team at an entry level salary for a few years.
So was our 2019 1st rounder.

2018 (2.97 GPG) was the highest scoring season since 2005-2007 (3.08 & 2.95), back when Spezza and Heatley would average 1.30 points per game. Duchene just finished 76th in scoring with 0.72 PPG; those are Mike Fisher stats. We have a 1st line center now? o_O
Thats the problem ,when ownership wont eat money or understand that poison years are going to come with some of your talent to win in the right now....Giving Turris a lengthy contract had risks,as does Duchene....

Us trying to replace Turris with a compareable center,while keeping the budget was the issue...Col knew it and fleeced us
 

operasen

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I look at, if Karlsson is indeed traded, Duchene to Islanders to replace Tavares. Dobson and Walhstrom the return.
They get their centre to replace a lot of JTs production at a far lesser cost. We get two blue chip prospects.
Win win.
 

topshelf15

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Can we not just resign this guy already???We have vultures already circling this guy now,ffs get something done PD
 

Ice-Tray

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That's quite a biased view necessary to make this deal look like anything but a colossal failure.

The Duchene deal was basically forced, dragged out so long in front of everybody.
Duchene had declined for years already, despite his young age.
Duchene needs to be signed to large contract or the deal looks even worse than it does now (just like the stupid Bobby Ryan deal that was a disaster from Day 1).
No, our team got screwed because they keep giving up way more than they get in every trade and have for at least a decade.
Duchene is a slight upgrade on Turris, nothing more. It may never be perceptible in the standings; which is huge problem considering the price we paid.
Bowers was a 1st round pick that we needed to play on the team at an entry level salary for a few years.
So was our 2019 1st rounder.

2018 (2.97 GPG) was the highest scoring season since 2005-2007 (3.08 & 2.95), back when Spezza and Heatley would average 1.30 points per game. Duchene just finished 76th in scoring with 0.72 PPG; those are Mike Fisher stats. We have a 1st line center now? o_O

While I haven't obsessed about this trade over the past 6 months... I've consistently hated it when it was proposed, when it happened, after it happened and everyday since. There aren't enough spin-o-ramas in the world to convince me that Matt Duchene is worth Heatley or Spezza, let alone way more than either.

Yeah, no.

Trying to make a valid comparison between Heater, Spezza, and Duchene's trade value as a basis for your hate for the trade. Dude, it's just so ridiculous I don't even know where to start. While you try and trot in stats from the past for comparison you willfully ignore that both of those players severely limited what team's they would go to, Spezza nixing a much better deal, and Heater choosing ONE team he would go to? That's not even to mention that Spezza had injury issues, was starting to decline, and was due a large contract extension. I understand not mentioning things that weaken your position, but this is ridiculous, there is no value in comparing trade returns between these players, nice try.

How anyone could have watched Duchene play all season and come away with the evaluation that he's on the decline and is only slightly better than Turris, is beyond me. I mean, I don't need to try and convince you otherwise, and don't care to bother, as I'm happy with the trade, but seriously, like the above attempt, this one is weak and well off the mark. Comparing his production after an early season trade to a new team is more of the same. I mean you watched him play the second half when everything started to click right? Still see Mike Fisher production? No, of course you don't, but that doesn't suit your position.

I see a problem with people's understand of trade value, and it's so strange because it comes from inside people with no information beyond what the read and see on TV. Folks decide in their heads what return would make them happy, and then make that a reality. It's a strange way to think, but here we are again. We didn't trade away a single premium asset, and got the best player in the deal by a fair bit. The first was never expected to be that high given that no one would have thought we would bottom out all of a sudden. Since it was lottery protected we happily drafted at 4oa and will give whatever pick next season, whatever that may be. A #2 centre owed big money on a long term deal, a 2nd tier prospect, and a fist is a good deal for a top line centre just entering his prime with two years left on his deal.

You're unhappy, that much is clear, but this comes down to your evaluation of the player, and the evaluation of what assets are worth. You're well off the mark on both in my opinion, but you feel the opposite which is fine. Nothing you've mentioned is proof of anything other than we all have an innate ability to pick and skew things to fit our narratives, and a more difficult time looking at things objectively when our emotions are involved.

We're not going to change each other's minds Trent, I'm happy with my perspective, as I'm sure you're happy with yours.
 

Agent Zub

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I look at, if Karlsson is indeed traded, Duchene to Islanders to replace Tavares. Dobson and Walhstrom the return.
They get their centre to replace a lot of JTs production at a far lesser cost. We get two blue chip prospects.
Win win.

The Blue chip prospects develop and we also trade them during their prime.

At this point we're just a feeder team for other NHL clubs.
 
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billpo

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give it a break.. if what Stevenson reported is true, then 10 million a season for 8 years is not lowballing. The only way that 10 million per is an insult is if the Sens tabled it and said "Take it or leave it" (which we have no idea what happened)

I am no fan of Melnyk, but you guys saying 10 million is somehow an insult is laughable.. it is entirely possible that Karlsson wants a change of scenery and would not have accepted ANY offer

When Drew Doughty is given a contract for 11, then 10 IS an insult...EK has been robbed of 2 more Norris trophys...and the one Doughty received...is one of them.
 
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Laphroaig

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I look at, if Karlsson is indeed traded, Duchene to Islanders to replace Tavares. Dobson and Walhstrom the return.
They get their centre to replace a lot of JTs production at a far lesser cost. We get two blue chip prospects.
Win win.

I really don't believe that the Islanders would give up both Dobson and Wahlstrom for Duchene. Ottawa overpaid massively for Duchene and I doubt that any other team would be willing to pay anything remotely approaching the value our GM put on him.
 

Laphroaig

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When Drew Doughty is given a contract for 11, then 10 IS an insult...EK has been robbed of 2 more Norris trophys...and the one Doughty received...is one of them.

Karlsson has been robbed of nothing. Doughty is consistently rated above Karlsson in the NHL coaches poll. Weber should have won the Norris the first year it was awarded to Karlsson. This constant refrain about Karlsson being hard done by in Norris voting is an embarrassment.
 

Gil Gunderson

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Karlsson has been robbed of nothing. Doughty is consistently rated above Karlsson in the NHL coaches poll. Weber should have won the Norris the first year it was awarded to Karlsson. This constant refrain about Karlsson being hard done by in Norris voting is an embarrassment.
I don’t think he’s been robbed either but that’s not true.
 

branch

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Karlsson has been robbed of nothing. Doughty is consistently rated above Karlsson in the NHL coaches poll. Weber should have won the Norris the first year it was awarded to Karlsson. This constant refrain about Karlsson being hard done by in Norris voting is an embarrassment.

He should have 4. 4 seasons where he was far and away the best D in the league and it wasn't even close. It's because we're the red headed step child of the NHL. We're not a dream meme team like LA or SJ.
 
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Cosmix

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He should have 4. 4 seasons where he was far and away the best D in the league and it wasn't even close. It's because we're the red headed step child of the NHL. We're not a dream meme team like LA or SJ.

3 not 4 IMO. NOT HUMBLE. :)
 
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Laphroaig

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He should have 4. 4 seasons where he was far and away the best D in the league and it wasn't even close. It's because we're the red headed step child of the NHL. We're not a dream meme team like LA or SJ.

It's a Duchene thread so arguing about Karlsson is probably inappropriate but I will point out that the year Doughty won the Norris he was favoured by NHL head coaches by a 12-5 margin and Brent Burns was favoured by the coaches by a 19-1 margin in another season where you think Karlsson was robbed. I trust the coaches.
 

Cosmix

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It's a Duchene thread so arguing about Karlsson is probably inappropriate but I will point out that the year Doughty won the Norris he was favoured by NHL head coaches by a 12-5 margin and Brent Burns was favoured by the coaches by a 19-1 margin in another season where you think Karlsson was robbed. I trust the coaches.

I don’t. Brent Burns deserved his IMNSHO. :)

Doughty is a premiere Defenseman and probably deserved a Norris at some point, but not that season given Karlsson’s Outstanding performance offensively. It was a travesty based on collusion by brain-dead Media hacks. Just like how Paul Coffey got screwed by the same wretches many years ago.
 

trentmccleary

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Karlsson has been robbed of nothing. Doughty is consistently rated above Karlsson in the NHL coaches poll. Weber should have won the Norris the first year it was awarded to Karlsson. This constant refrain about Karlsson being hard done by in Norris voting is an embarrassment.

You don't set the standards for the winners, the writers do and they consistently make similar choices since the trophy was first created.

Karlsson dominated defenseman offensively during his first Norris season at near 150% more production than #2. That's an automatic Norris at any time in history.

Doughty missed the playoffs. He didn't earn the Norris trophy, Karlsson did. The voters have never awarded the Norris to d-man who has missed the playoffs.

Karlsson blew Doughty away the next year, but missed the playoffs and voters do not award the Norris to D-men who miss the playoffs.

Every winner in recent history has been consistent with how voters have always voted for the Norris trophy, except Doughty getting more 1st place votes than Karlsson for missing the playoffs. That was a bunch of bullcrap.
 

Cosmix

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You don't set the standards for the winners, the writers do and they consistently make similar choices since the trophy was first created.

Karlsson dominated defenseman offensively during his first Norris season at near 150% more production than #2. That's an automatic Norris at any time in history.

Doughty missed the playoffs. He didn't earn the Norris trophy, Karlsson did. The voters have never awarded the Norris to d-man who has missed the playoffs.

Karlsson blew Doughty away the next year, but missed the playoffs and voters do not award the Norris to D-men who miss the playoffs.

Every winner in recent history has been consistent with how voters have always voted for the Norris trophy, except Doughty getting more 1st place votes than Karlsson for missing the playoffs. That was a bunch of bullcrap.

Yes, Total bull crap to award the Norris to Doughty given Karlsson’s performance:

Karlsson 82GP 16G. 66A. 82 PTS
Doughty 82GP 12G 32 A. 44 PTS

No contest! Except for the Media wretches who colluded.

Shame on Dreger and his co-conspirators.
 
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trentmccleary

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Yes, Total bull crap to award the Norris to Doughty given Karlsson’s performance:

Karlsson 82GP 16G. 66A. 82 PTS
Doughty 82GP 12G 32 A. 44 PTS

No contest! Except for the Media wretches who colluded.

Karlsson missed the playoffs, so it's consistent that he didn't win.
Doughty getting more 1st place votes the year before, even though Karlsson still won is the bullcrap. It was totally inconsistent with anything the voters had ever done.
 

Cosmix

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Karlsson missed the playoffs, so it's consistent that he didn't win.
Doughty getting more 1st place votes the year before, even though Karlsson still won is the bullcrap. It was totally inconsistent with anything the voters had ever done.

I do not agree nor abide! :)
 

Cosmix

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“The James Norris Memorial Trophy, or simply the Norris Trophy, is awarded annually to the National Hockey League's top "defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position".[1] It is named after James E. Norris, the longtime owner of the Detroit Red Wings. The James Norris Memorial Trophy has been awarded 61 times to 26 different players since its beginnings in 1954. At the end of each season, members of the Professional Hockey Writers' Association vote to determine the player who was the best defenseman during the regular season.”

REGULAR SEASON is supposed to be the criteria.
 

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Karlsson missed the playoffs, so it's consistent that he didn't win.
Doughty getting more 1st place votes the year before, even though Karlsson still won is the bullcrap. It was totally inconsistent with anything the voters had ever done.

But Doughty missed the playoffs the year when he got more 1st place votes... so it’s consistent well sort of... Still can’t get my head around Karlsson not getting the votes when he dominated the field offensively but the next season Burns gets it because he... did what Karlsson did. There isn’t a whole lot of consistency.
 
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