Mats Sundin was not named as the best player to wear #13, it went to Pavel Datsyuk

notDatsyuk

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Jul 20, 2018
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Sundin was clutch on a far worse team. Datz is a great two way guy on an also great team. Hard to compare but I would take big Mats for the fact he had to carry the team on his back for the bulk of his career
That's a fair argument, but I think it would be stronger if his weaker team had done as well as Datsyuk's. As it is, we are looking at a great player leading an average team to better than average results, compared with a great player leading a good team to better than good results.
 

notDatsyuk

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Look, I'm not trying to take away any of Datsyuk's accomplishments as he was a fantastic player, but I think there is a real discussion or debate that could be had in terms of the quality of players, especially when factoring in teams and level of support.

During Sundin's tenure as a Leaf, could you ever say there was a year where he was not the best player on the team? Mogilny slightly outscored him in '03, but even then I wouldn't argue that Mogilny was better or more valuable to the team. I don't think there is any debate that Sundin was certifiably the best player on the team all of those seasons.

With Datsyuk, was he the best player on his team every season? Arguable. His first few seasons, he had Yzerman, Hull, Shanahan, Fedorov, Lidstrom etc who were still all stars at that time. Post-lockout he reached elite levels, but even during the Cup run years ('08,'09), you could argue that Zetterberg or Lidstrom were just as valuable or better. Zetterberg himself was nominated for a Selke in 2008, played both wing and centre and was an incredible playoff performer, winning a Smythe while shutting down Crosby and almost doing it again in 2009. Datsyuk's playoff numbers pale in comparison to his. Then you have Lidstrom, who I don't think I need to speak for really...and they had Marian Hossa for their 2009 run as well.

As a a Leaf, did Sundin ever have anyone close to a Zetterberg or a Lidstrom? Hell, did he have anything close to even one season of Marian Hossa, or Brian Rafalski? The best teammate Mats ever had in the NHL was Joe Sakic on the Nordiques. Sakic is also unanimously considered to be better than Mats, yet when the two played together, Mats was actually outscoring him by his third season. If the Nordiques never traded Sundin, and proceeded to still get Forsberg they would've been a dynasty and Sundin is probably held in much higher regard overall.
A valid argument if you are talking about value to a team, but I think the question is about the talent if the individual player.

Was Gretzky less of a player just because he had Messier, Coffey, Kurri, and Anderson with him?
 

Superstar

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A valid argument if you are talking about value to a team, but I think the question is about the talent if the individual player.

Was Gretzky less of a player just because he had Messier, Coffey, Kurri, and Anderson with him?

I love Wayne, but he never won a Cup after being traded...that Oilers team had won a Cup without Wayne.
 

notDatsyuk

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I love Wayne, but he never won a Cup after being traded...that Oilers team had won a Cup without Wayne.
So Wayne wasn't as good a player as Mats?

You're actually proving my point - remember that Wayne, despite not leading his team to the cup, still led the league in scoring three times while with LA.

The discussion is about the player, not the team.
 
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Green Snow Storm

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I've had this bone to pick with Datsyuk for a while, time to get it off my chest.

Datsyuk is one of the most overrated players of the most recent era in my opinion.

Clearly an elite level player, but I just don't feel he was ever AS good as the media etc. portrayed. Tremendous 200 foot player, great (not elite) offensive production over his career, could be argued he could have achieved elite production if he wasn't as committed at the other end and that's fair (he also had a pretty elite supporting cast for a good portion of his career).

He was just uttered in the same vein as Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin too often and I remember thinking he was never there for me.

Sundin and Selanne each played longer and sustained higher ppg despite playing more games. Datsyuk had the most team success and that speaks for something as well, but he'd still be in 3rd on my list, but it would be close between the 3.

Yes I would never post this on the Wings board hahah, I've just never shared the almost mythical celebration of the player a lot of people seem to.
 
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Superstar

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So Wayne wasn't as good a player as Mats?

You're actually proving my point - remember that Wayne, despite not leading his team to the cup, still led the league in scoring three times while with LA.

The discussion is about the player, not the team.

The point is having a great supporting cast will help elevate a player's production, status and accomplishments. Wayne didn't play with scrubs in LA...and Datsyuk had a much, much better supporting cast than Sundin ever did in Toronto...it's not even close...the comparison is between Datsyuk vs Sundin, not Gretzky vs Sundin.
 
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Man Bear Pig

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I hate this because Datsyuk is probably my favourite player and Sundin was amazing himself and was so important for us. But, I'll give the edge to Datsyuk. Hes probably the smartest player I've ever seen outside of Gretzky. Watching Datsyuk was like that Matthews goal vs Ottawa where hes stripping the puck off players like its nothing and scoring. He was a magician and I cant believe he wasnt a 100 point player every year(I know he was injured alot).
 

deletethis

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Knowing the career lines for the two players, if you gave me a choice of the two players to start a franchise with, it would be Sundin in a heartbeat. The 400 more career games, 250 more career goals, 180 more career assists plus the higher goals and points per game in both the regular season and the playoffs.

But muh defense... Sundin was a good defensive player, not a great matchup one. That's what teammates are for.
 
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notDatsyuk

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The point is having a great supporting cast will help elevate a player's production, status and accomplishments. Wayne didn't play with scrubs in LA...and Datsyuk had a much, much better supporting cast than Sundin ever did in Toronto...it's not even close...the comparison is between Datsyuk vs Sundin, not Gretzky vs Sundin.
Let me try putting it a different way. Wayne in LA played on a weaker team than Wayne in Edmonton, and that team didn't accomplish as much. Does that mean that Wayne in LA was a better player than Wayne in Edmonton? Not necessarily.

Mats played on a weaker team than Pavel, and that team didn't accomplish as much. Does that mean that Mats was a better player than Pavel? Not necessarily.

I'm not saying Sundin was better or worse than Datsyuk (I think it's very close), just that we need to look at the player. If Mats was better, it wasn't because he was on a weaker team, it was because he was better.

I think too much stress on their respective teammates just weakens the argument.
 

notDatsyuk

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Two very different players, in different eras (although they overlapped some), which makes it hard to compare.

Sundin had about the best backhand I've ever seen, in over 60 years of watching hockey. Datsyuk was the best at stealing the puck from an opponent that I've seen (Gretzky was also great at it).

Which would I pick to start a team? Tough question. Which would I pick between Gretzky and Orr? The thread about cloning a former Leaf brings up the same debate: offence vs defence?

To build a team from scratch, I'd probably go with Mats (actually, my answer would be "both, please"), but that doesn't necessarily mean I think he was a better player.

I'm disappointed that Sundin wasn't picked, but I'm not upset.
 

SmoggyTwinkles

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Sundin is probably a more famous #13, but Datsyuk was a better hockey player.

This is a great summary IMO.

It's a f***ing number on a jersey. Datsyuk is arguably the better player, Sundin wore it more famously though.

Sundin was a great player, and if he was on those Wings teams he'd probably have been even better as others have pointed out and vice versa, Datsyuk on those Leafs teams probably isn't looking too good at the end of his career.

People have to debate everything though. How about #13 and Mats Sundin is an awesome memory for me.
 

Oscar Peterson

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Jun 27, 2015
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I've had this bone to pick with Datsyuk for a while, time to get it off my chest.

Datsyuk is one of the most overrated players of the most recent era in my opinion.

Clearly an elite level player, but I just don't feel he was ever AS good as the media etc. portrayed. Tremendous 200 foot player, great (not elite) offensive production over his career, could be argued he could have achieved elite production if he wasn't as committed at the other end and that's fair (he also had a pretty elite supporting cast for a good portion of his career).

He was just uttered in the same vein as Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin too often and I remember thinking he was never there for me.

Sundin and Selanne each played longer and sustained higher ppg despite playing more games. Datsyuk had the most team success and that speaks for something as well, but he'd still be in 3rd on my list, but it would be close between the 3.

Yes I would never post this on the Wings board hahah, I've just never shared the almost mythical celebration of the player a lot of people seem to.
I completely disagree. You say he maybe could have achieved elite production if he wasn't as committed at the other end, but that's sort of the point. IMO in his prime Datsyuk was the best defensive forward in the league and still putting up 90 point seasons, not to mention his style (incredible combination of smarts and hands) was simply beautiful to watch and also probably more influential on the way players learn to play today.
Maybe I'm biased since he was my second favourite player all time, but I think if anything he's not celebrated enough.
 

notDatsyuk

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Sundin has the longevity. Datsyuk had a better peak and has the Cup to bout.

Sundin was amazing on the international stage as well, 06 Gold Medal is nothing to slouch at..
And Datsyuk's 02 Gold Medal is nothing to slouch at either.

But Mats did better at the world's (3G, 2S, 2B) than Pavel (1G, 1S, 2B), albeit in more chances.
 

Green Snow Storm

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Jul 22, 2009
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I completely disagree. You say he maybe could have achieved elite production if he wasn't as committed at the other end, but that's sort of the point. IMO in his prime Datsyuk was the best defensive forward in the league and still putting up 90 point seasons, not to mention his style (incredible combination of smarts and hands) was simply beautiful to watch and also probably more influential on the way players learn to play today.
Maybe I'm biased since he was my second favourite player all time, but I think if anything he's not celebrated enough.
Yeah “maybe” wasn’t the best choice of word there. He definitely would have been more productive offensively, and again great player. Just don’t hold him in as high regard as a lot of people.
 

Superstar

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Let me try putting it a different way. Wayne in LA played on a weaker team than Wayne in Edmonton, and that team didn't accomplish as much. Does that mean that Wayne in LA was a better player than Wayne in Edmonton? Not necessarily.

Mats played on a weaker team than Pavel, and that team didn't accomplish as much. Does that mean that Mats was a better player than Pavel? Not necessarily.

I'm not saying Sundin was better or worse than Datsyuk (I think it's very close), just that we need to look at the player. If Mats was better, it wasn't because he was on a weaker team, it was because he was better.

I think too much stress on their respective teammates just weakens the argument.

Very few could compare to Wayne, not Datsyuk, nor Sundin...we need to look at Lemieux, Orr and Howe in order to compare to Wayne. It's definitely easier to focus in on stopping Wayne while he played for a weaker Kings team. Messier was the 2nd line centre with the Oilers playing behind Wayne...imagine that.

It's arguable whether Datsyuk is a better player than Sundin. Here are 10 years worth of their stats in their most productive years for their respective teams. Of note, Sundin played many years in the clutching and grabbing era, where he was consistently mugged and draped over by opposition players. Those Leafs teams also weren't very deep, so the opposition could simply focus on stopping him. Sundin consistently delivered more for a worse team over those years. I would argue Sundin is the better player.

Sundin:
Year: total points, team GF (goals for), percentage contribution to team GF
1995-96: 83 pts, 247 goals, 33.60%
1996-97: 94 pts, 230, 40.87%
1997-98: 74 pts, 194, 38.14%
1998-99: 83 pts, 268, 30.97%
1999-00: 73 pts, 246, 29.67%
2000-01: 74 pts, 232, 31.90%
2001-02: 80 pts, 249, 32.13%
2002-03: 72 pts, 236, 30.51%
2003-04: 75 pts, 242, 30.99%
2005-06: 78 pts, 254, 30.71%

Datsyuk:
Year: total points, team GF (goals for), percentage contribution to team GF
2003-04: 68 pts, 255, 26.67%
2005-06: 87 pts, 301, 28.90%
2006-07: 87 pts, 252, 34.52%
2007-08: 97 pts, 252, 38.49%
2008-09: 97 pts, 289, 33.56%
2009-10: 70 pts, 223, 31.39%
2010-11: 59 pts, 257, 22.96%
2011-12: 67 pts, 239, 28.03%
2012-13: 49 pts, 122, 40.16%
2014-15: 65 pts, 231, 28.14%
 
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Leafs87

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Aug 10, 2010
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Mats is the model of consistency. He got unlucky with the supporting cast he had most of his career.

played about 400 games more and had a better PPG. Also a guy I would build around. Not that Datsyuk isn’t, but Mats could carry a team.

Datsyuk is a very unique player and probably “better”. I do prefer Mats for my team tbh
 

Morbo

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Very few could compare to Wayne, not Datsyuk, nor Sundin...we need to look at Lemieux, Orr and Howe in order to compare to Wayne. It's definitely easier to focus in on stopping Wayne while he played for a weaker Kings team. Messier was the 2nd line centre with the Oilers playing behind Wayne...imagine that.

It's arguable whether Datsyuk is a better player than Sundin. Here are 10 years worth of their stats in their most productive years for their respective teams. Of note, Sundin played many years in the clutching and grabbing era, where he was consistently mugged and draped over by opposition players. Those Leafs teams also weren't very deep, so the opposition could simply focus on stopping him. Sundin consistently delivered more for a worse team over those years. I would argue Sundin is the better player.

Sundin:
Year: total points, team GF (goals for), percentage contribution to team GF
1995-96: 83 pts, 247 goals, 33.60%
1996-97: 94 pts, 230, 40.87%
1997-98: 74 pts, 194, 38.14%
1998-99: 83 pts, 268, 30.97%
1999-00: 73 pts, 246, 29.67%
2000-01: 74 pts, 232, 31.90%
2001-02: 80 pts, 249, 32.13%
2002-03: 72 pts, 236, 30.51%
2003-04: 75 pts, 242, 30.99%
2005-06: 78 pts, 254, 30.71%

Datsyuk:
Year: total points, team GF (goals for), percentage contribution to team GF
2003-04: 68 pts, 255, 26.67%
2005-06: 87 pts, 301, 28.90%
2006-07: 87 pts, 252, 34.52%
2007-08: 97 pts, 252, 38.49%
2008-09: 97 pts, 289, 33.56%
2009-10: 70 pts, 223, 31.39%
2010-11: 59 pts, 257, 22.96%
2011-12: 67 pts, 239, 28.03%
2012-13: 49 pts, 122, 40.16%
2014-15: 65 pts, 231, 28.14%

cool...now do defence.
 

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