I take it you're being sarcastic, but considering the era and players he had to work with for the most part, he was a top 10 playoff performer of his time. Depends on what your standards are for overwhelming I suppose.
Mats Sundin HHOF worthiness
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I take it you're being sarcastic, but considering the era and players he had to work with for the most part, he was a top 10 playoff performer of his time. Depends on what your standards are for overwhelming I suppose.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
I don't see how you can say Sundin was top 10 in the playoffs in his era. We're talking about a team that didn't win much (unless they played Ottawa) and one that actually advanced farthest when Sundin was injured.
Curtis Joseph was a better playoff performer on that same team and some would argue that Gary Roberts was, as well. And again, this wasn't one of the elite playoff teams of the era.
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
Only slightly.
You made a good point of his production being better than it looked because of the era.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
cujo was almost always the team's MVP. I would say Sundin was always #2. Roberts only was #1/2 when Sundin was injured in 2002, never any other time.
overpass
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Modano/Sundin is interesting because they were used very differently by their coaches. Modano got the best linemates and went against the toughest competition. Sundin got weaker linemates but didn't have the same matchup responsibilities.
Sundin certainly never had the same playoff rep that Modano and other top centres did. The West had great centres on the top teams and some legendary matchups in the middle, unlike the East. Sundin played against the likes of Radek Bonk and Michal Handzus, not Sakic/Forsberg/Fedorov.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
I once did a comparison between Sundin and Modano before and found that they outscored their teammates and linemates by very similar amounts. So the whole "Sundin had bad linemates" thing is overblown. Jere Lehtinen was better defensively than the guys Sundin played with, but not offensively. And Brett Hull just wasn't the same in Dallas for the most part.
I'd link to the comparison, but the search feature is broken and I can't find it with google.
I'd link to the comparison, but the search feature is broken and I can't find it with google.
overpass
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I don't think Lehtinen inflated Modano's scoring totals, but you'd have to think he helped Modano with his defensive and all-around play. And they played together for a long time, while Sundin went through a lot of linemates. I'd say Lehtinen helped him handle the tough matchups, at least.
Brett Hull was more of a supporting player at that stage in his career, I agree. Not the game-changer he had been 5-10 years before. But when compared to Mikael Renberg, Jonas Hoglund, or Steve Thomas...
Jimmy Carter
Avs/Leafs fan
He may not be a first ballot player (though he's in my top 3 all time favorite players behind, duh, Sakic and Forsberg), I don't see how he doesn't get in eventually. He may have not been "elite" and putting up 100+ point seasons all the time, but he was fairly consistant in getting PPG or near. After his rookie season, he only had 2 seasons below 70 points. One was the season shortened by the lockout in which he only played 47 games (and put up 47 points). The other was his last season where he went to Vancouver, in which he only played 41 games.
Personally I think he could get in eventually on his NHL credentials alone, might take a few years but I think he'd get in. However, if you consider his international career as well, I don't see how anyone can think he shouldn't get in the HHOF at all. I can understand arguments for not 1st or maybe even 2nd ballot, but I don't think you can reasonably say he doesn't deserve to be there one day.
Personally I think he could get in eventually on his NHL credentials alone, might take a few years but I think he'd get in. However, if you consider his international career as well, I don't see how anyone can think he shouldn't get in the HHOF at all. I can understand arguments for not 1st or maybe even 2nd ballot, but I don't think you can reasonably say he doesn't deserve to be there one day.
BraveCanadian
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I think it is definitely more than a coincidence that the only times Modano was really good defensively were when he had Lehtinen on his wing.
Not to short change the fact that Modano did buy in and become more responsible defensively in the Stars system with Hitchcock, but I think that reputation is starting to get way over hyped on the board now.
The first several seasons of his career Modano was a pure offensive player and a soft one (although exciting to watch!). It wasn't until the later 90s when the Stars whole team was built to clutch grab and grind defensively that suddenly Modano appeared so much better.
I'd describe him as above average once he bought in but he wasn't Sergei Fedorov out there.
Sundin on the other hand was strictly average defensively in my mind.
Rants Mulliniks
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I'm just going to cut and paste several of my posts from 2008. Bear in mind his numbers and position only went UP since then.
"This is the HHoF criteria:
“Playing ability, sportsmanship, character and their contribution to the team or teams and to the game of hockey in general.â€
Under playing ability:
When you couple Sundin’s record as a Leaf: all time leading scorer of a franchise that’s been around for 90 years, 2nd leading Leafs playoff scorer (done in a lower scoring era), one of the best win% of any Leafs captain along with a variety of other Leafs records as well as:
9 All Star appearances
4th overall in NHL Scoring while he was in the league
Top scorer and top ppg in the six Best on Best Tournaments in his era
Only 3 time Best on Best All Star forward during his era (along with All Star in all WCs he fully participated in)
Top 10 in NHL GWGs
Record for NHL OT goals
1 SEL Championship
3 World Championship Golds (one as Captain)
Captains 1 Olympic Gold
Etc
They cannot ignore what this man has done in international play – particularly when he was up against the best players in the world. That’s often overlooked by guys like Costello but he was one of the very top international players during his time and the HHoF won’t ignore that.
Beyond the playing ability criteria
And when they couple his playing ability record with this part of Sundin’s hockey career: “ sportsmanship, character and their contribution to the team or teams and to the game of hockey in general.â€, Sundin has a very strong case."
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I'm too lazy tp type it out so I'm just going to quote two other people who summed it up nicely:
Anyway, here are some fun Mats stats:
1. There are only 18 players who have been inducted into the HHOF who scored more points in their NHL careers than Mats has.
2. There are only 12 who scored more goals.
3. There are only 23 who have more assists.
4. Only 19 have played more career NHL games than he has.
5. Mats is currently sitting at #22 on the all-time list for goals. As mentioned above, 12 of those are already HHOF members. The remaining 9 are Hull (Brett), Yzerman, Robitaille Shanahan, Jagr Andreychuck, Sakic, Ciccarelli, and Nieuwendyk. Of those 9, the only player that meets the eligibility requirement of having retired for at least 3 full seasons prior to being nominated is Ciccarelli (and as has already been mentioned, we know why that is).
6. Mats is currently #34 on the all-time list for assists. Of the 33 in front of him, 23 are already inductees, and of the remaining 10 only Adam Oates, Doug Gilmour, Phil Housley, and Vinny Damphouse are eligible.
7. Mats is 30th in all-time points. Oates and Gilmour are the only two players ahead of him who haven't been inducted and are eligible.
8. Mats has average 1.01 points per game during his career. Of the 44 players who played at least 500 games and have a higher average, there are only 8 players who are eligible for nomination and haven't yet been inducted (Kent Nilsson, Pavel Bure, Bernie Nicholls, Adam Oates, Tim Kerr, Rick Martin, Steve Larmer, Pierre Larouche). Of those, only Nicholls, Oates and Larmer played more than 1000 games.
And to illustrate the stupidity of the author's article:
Quote from: Brian Costello, The Hockey News
So while Sundin dithers on what to do next season, here are 10 reasons why he won't make the Hall of Fame three years after his retirement. There might be 20 reasons why he will make the Hall some day, but some members of the selection committee will reject him for these flaws:
Here’s one way to look at it:
Quote from: Brian Costello, The Hockey News
4. Has never been a first-team all-star. (He has been a second-teamer twice.)
59% of the Hall of Fame has never been a first team all star so that leaves us with a little over 41%. We can’t compare goalies record with Sundin so that leaves roughly 35% of the HHoF
Names like: Leafs Sittler, McDonald, Keon, Joe Primeau, Alan Stanley, Ron Francis (& Doug Gilmour)
And NHLer’s like Gil Perreault, Jacques Lemaire, Cournoyer, Ratelle, Larry Murphy, Gainey, Delvecchio, Serge Savard
They don’t get in with that criteria treated like elimination rounds.
For Doug Gilmour fans, he was never a first or second team all star. Think they should lock the doors of the HHoF on Doug because of that?
Quote from: Brian Costello, The Hockey News
7. His 1,321 career regular season points are impressive, but not good enough. Adam Oates has been rejected two straight induction years and he retired with 1,420 points. Same with Doug Gilmour and his 1,414 points.
Of the 35% left, only 12 have scored more points leaving. 95% of the HHoF have been eliminated after two pieces of criteria that this writer feels could cause a player to be disqualified.
Quote from: Brian Costello, The Hockey News
6. His 555 career regular season goals are impressive, but not good enough. Dino Ciccarelli has 608 and he has been rebuffed and Dave Andreychuk (640) won't get in when he's first-time eligible in 2009.
Mikita? Trottier? Face it you guys. You don’t cut the mustard for this Hockey News HHoF criteria ! (down to 8 players left)
Quote from: Brian Costello, The Hockey News
8. He never posted a 50-goal season and had just one 100-point season. Pavel Bure had two 60-goal seasons and two more with 58 and 59 and he's an outsider.
I always though Gordie Howe sucked when he couldn’t put up 50 goals in a season !
Quote from: Brian Costello, The Hockey News
9. Has just 16 more points (1,321) than games played (1,305) during his 17-season career. Very good, but not great.
Renown household name Johnny Bucyk makes it this far but falls short. (He wasn’t a bad player but seriously top 7 in NHL history by that criteria?)
Quote from: Brian Costello, The Hockey News
3. Has never won an individual award.
I’d take the Messier over the Lady Bing. So would Mogilny. Jari Kurri bites the dust.
Only five players in the entire Hockey Hall of Fame and of the entire NHLers of all time can get past those six criteria that THN writer Costello feels will be held against Sundin:
Esposito, Gretzky, Lafleur, Lemieux, Messier.
Interesting to note that those five players played a lot in at least one of the two of the highest scoring decades in hockey: the 70s and 80s.
I say the above somewhat tongue in cheek. It’s almost as assinine a way to look at it as Costello did.
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There are currently 138 forwards in the Hall of Fame (HOF). If Mats hangs them up today, here's how he compares both to the HOF and league wide (LW) historically.
Goals
14th HOF
22nd LW
Assists
28th HOF
34th LW
Points
21st HOF
30th LW
Points Per Game Played
27th HOF
35th LW
Game Winning Goals
5th HOF
8th LW
Overtime Goals
1st HOF
1st LW
Given there are 138 forwards in the HOF and his stats put him between 27th and 1st all time vs currently inducted HOF members, how much does he lower the bar again?
This aside, lets have a look at the HOF criteria and someone enlighten me as to how he doesn't fit (and before you go say Dino Ciccarelli or Adam Oates, try and come up with a list of this magnitude for them).
"The criteria the HoF consider is “Playing ability, sportsmanship, character and their contribution to the team or teams and to the game of hockey in general. â€
Playing ability : Sundin led World Championship tournaments in scoring. Sundin is the 4th leading scoring since he entered the league. Plus see above.
Sportsmanship
Sundin’s PIMs/game and career PIMs is low.
Character
Captaincy is a testament to a player’s character. Sundin is the longest serving non-Canadian captain in league history. He’s about to be the 2nd longest serving captain in Leafs history surviving a few GMs and coaches. Sundin is the second longest serving Captain in the league now. He also led Sweden to WC Gold and Olympic Gold as their Captain.
Look at the media scrutiny Sundin was under and how he has handled himself and compare that to others.
Contributions to their Team
Sundin led his team in scoring 13 times so far and the other 4 times he was second in scoring. Sundin is an original six team’s All Time leading scorer and goal scorer. Sundin also led Sweden in scoring many times. Sundin also scored 7 goals in 8 SEL playoff games to lead his team to that championship.
Sundin was named to the all star team 7 times and elected twice more. Sundin is the only forward of his era to be named to the Best-on-Best All Star teams 3 times during his era. Sundin also made the World Championships All Star teams regularly as well as earning some Best Forward & one MVP recognition.
Sundin won 1 SEL, 3 World Championships and 1 Olympic Gold and he captained at least two of those teams and either led or was up with the leaders in scoring.
Sundin holds the NHL record for OT goals. He’s top 7 in GWG and top 10 shorthanded goals.
Statistically, Sundin is the most consistent elite scorer in NHL history. His string of 70 point seasons and the number of times he has led his team in scoring are up there with the best in league history.
Contributions to the game of hockey
In ’99, Sundin started a Leafs Charity called Captain’s Corner. He is Captain of the NHL team that raises more money for charity than any other and has done so for some time. Sundin has done his share to contribute to that for years.
Sundin’s popularity in Sweden and how he has handled himself over the years has probably done more to grow the sport than many.
Sundin’s Historical Notes:
Currently holds the NHL and Leafs record for most overtime goals with 15
Tied NHL record for fastest overtime goal - 6 seconds (tied with Alexander Ovechkin and David Legwand)
Tied for Most consecutive 70-or-more point seasons (15) (excluding the shortened 1994-95 NHL season)
First European hockey player to be drafted first overall
Mats was banned from representing Sweden for coming to play in the NHL but went on to represent them 14 times and becoming one of three Swedes to win 3 World Championships
He was tied for the most Viking awards (Best Swedish NHLer voted by Swedish NHLers)
Longest serving European captain in league history
First Swedish player to reach the 500 goal milestone
Most career points, goals and assists by a Swedish hockey player
Currently the third highest scoring completely non-Canadian player in NHL history behind Jagr & Kurri. (Brett Hull born in Canada & Stan Mikita raised in Canada are also currently ahead of him)
Leafs All Time leading goal scorer and leading scorer
Top 7 all time in game winning goals
Close to top 10 all time in short handed goals.
Supposedly scored the most famous goal in Swedish hockey history when he went end to end through the Russian team and Fetisov for the Gold Medal winning goal in ’91."
But yeah, someone please enlighten me as to how he lowers the bar or doesn't qualify.
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First European born player to be drafted first overall in the NHL entry draft. (1989)
Named to the Elitserien World All-Star Team in 1991, 1992, 1994 and 1998.
Named to the World Championships All-Star Team in 1992 and 2003.
World Championships' Best Forward in 1992.
Named to the Canada Cup All-Star Team in 1991.
Named to the World Cup of Hockey All-Star Team in 1996.
Named to the Olympic Tournament All-Star Team in 2002.
4 international gold medals, one silver, and two bronze.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Killion
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Big Phil
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No it isn't, but it also isn't bad enough to keep him out of the Hall. He isn't a legendary playoff performer and he isn't a bad one.
I think if we are to be honest with ourselves we have to look at Darryl Sittler and ask ourselves if he had the better career than Sundin. I think the deeper you look at things the harder it gets to put Sittler ahead of him all-time, if that tells you anything. Sittler is a guy where 95% of us agree he belongs in the HHOF. I say this number because there is a small minority who don't like him in there.
Lastly, Sundin had incredible consistency year in and year out. You knew he would get you 80 points, dead puck era or not. That's just too hard to ignore.
Fredrik_71
Registered User
Quite the post, eyeball. Once again, Sundin's playoff numbers compared to others of the same time are very good. I remember him playing above average defense as well in the playoffs.
Also to claim Modano was just an above average defensive player when he bought in, and attribute most of his defensive success to Lehtinen, sounds to me like you've never seen him a whole lot during his best years. He himself was an actual demon defensively. I honestly don't think Lehtinen himself was much better. If the Selke voting was more like it has been recently, rewarding great defensive players who also put up a decent amount of offense, Modano would have had a few Selke trophies atleast. Not saying that's the right way, it should actually be judged on strictly who they think is the best defensively regardless of how many points they put up, but a lot of times players with great offensive skill also have some of the best defensive skill. Speed, reading the play well, and committing yourself being the main factors. Players who are really good with their stick offensively are usually really good with their stick defensively if they apply themselves.
Also to claim Modano was just an above average defensive player when he bought in, and attribute most of his defensive success to Lehtinen, sounds to me like you've never seen him a whole lot during his best years. He himself was an actual demon defensively. I honestly don't think Lehtinen himself was much better. If the Selke voting was more like it has been recently, rewarding great defensive players who also put up a decent amount of offense, Modano would have had a few Selke trophies atleast. Not saying that's the right way, it should actually be judged on strictly who they think is the best defensively regardless of how many points they put up, but a lot of times players with great offensive skill also have some of the best defensive skill. Speed, reading the play well, and committing yourself being the main factors. Players who are really good with their stick offensively are usually really good with their stick defensively if they apply themselves.
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
This is absolutely true.
It was never stated that his playoff performance should keep him out. In retrospect, his playoff numbers aren't bad for the era he played in.
The question is is the HOF for the incredibly consistent over a long stretch as well as the greats of the game.
As I stated in my original post, Sundin looked like a Hall of Famer when you saw him play. On paper (in the NHL) it doesn't look as clear.
Also, I must add that I am glad to see the passion from the Sundin fans. Especially eyeball11 and his legendary post.
Rants Mulliniks
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The funny thing is, I'm NOT really a Sundin fan. I just think people don't really realize what the criteria for the Hall are, nor do they realize that Sundin is ahead of most people already in the Hall. I find people go to great lengths to try and minimize his achievements, with the two main comments being:
A) Where he finished in single seasons
B) That he only looks good because he played so long (no injuries).
Playing so long at the pace he did is quite remarkable. That so many others COULDN'T do it says something. As for individual seasons, sure he may not have been top 5 every year but he's 4th highest over his career and highest in best on best in his career.
I agree. I think a good comparable in the current game is Eric Staal, who (to me) always looks way more dominant than his ~75 points a year would suggest. You could look at his stats and say "One big year, and a few other nice ones", but if you watch him play it's a different story.
Big Phil
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Very nice comparison. Staal is much more dominant than his numbers suggest. I feel Gilbert Perreault fits this bill as well, but we can all agree Perreault is superior to Staal or Sundin.
And again I will ask any critics, can you seriously look at Sundin's career, on paper and with your eyes, and not see that he is at the very least as good as Sittler was?
Well and that's the thing, where is the line drawn for players who were very good for such a long time. In Sundin's case this would be close to 15 years. That's just too hard to ignore. He was among the best in the game (no, not the cream of the crop) for a long time. He was in the public eye. He doesn't have that one season that automatically catapults him into the HHOF, but he almost doesn't need it.
WarriorofTime
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I would put Sundin in the Hall of Very Good... but his longevity and consistency probably get him in.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Sundin's point totals are a lot like Brodeur's sv% to me: rarely dominant season-to-season, but always well above average. And as soon as you start looking at blocks of 3, 4, 5 seasons, that consistency really starts to show.
Iain Fyffe
Hockey fact-checker
That's a common misconception, that if you post something in support of player, you must be a fanboy. I was iffy on Sundin without thinking about it in any detail, but your post does make a good case.
Well, Brodeur does suffer from a 4-season stretch in mid-career (98/99 to 01/02) with decidedly unimpressive save percentages (including two seasons below the league average). The next couple of seasons after that were not much above average either.
How can he be a compiler when he was constantly the leading scorer on his team, and by quite a bit most years as well.
Also he was consistently a top performer in the best on best tournaments he played in, hardly a compiler.
This argument simply doesn't hold any water IMO.
Big Phil
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Yes this is true. I think people misuse the term "compiler". Sundin was not a compiler. Modano was not a compiler. Francis was not a compiler.
To me a compiler is a guy who hangs around the game far past when he should have retired and then he has higher point totals than you imagined when all is said and done just based on this compiling. But he's never a guy who ever stood out among the NHL.
These players are ones like Andreychuk. How many people take Andreychuk on their team before Sundin? Neither would I.
