Mat Barzal or Ivan Provorov

[Filthy Dangles]

Which 2015 drafted player would you rather have for the next decade?

Click to read more...

 

[LordNeverLose]

I voted Barzal because a) I'm biased, and b) I think he's better right now and will continue to be.

That having been said, Provorov is fantastic and I would understand why someone might take him over Barzal. I personally have him 4th from that draft.

 

[Master P]

Barzal. I really think that he is going to become a very special type of player.

 

[Kcb12345]

That's tough...but I'm gonna go with Barzal. Just cause if I could have one of them on the Stars it'd be Barzal easily. Based solely on positional need

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

That's tough...but I'm gonna go with Barzal. Just cause if I could have one of them on the Stars it'd be Barzal easily. Based solely on positional need

Ironically enough, I'd probably opt for Provorov for the Pens for the same reason (need). Provorov would give them another top pairing guy to take minutes away from Letang, could potentially make Letang expendable to use in a trade to bolster the lineup elsewhere, and would give Malkin someone to talk to.

But that's more of a "my favorite team's need" choice rather than because I think Provorov is necessarily better than Barzal.

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

Give me Provorov, even if both pan out as elite players Provorov will fill the bigger value/harder to find position

 

[TT1]

i'd easily take Barzal, he's a beast

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Depends. Want a top pairing forward or defender for the next 10 years?

All preference basically.

 

[The Moose is Loose]

I think both can get overrated, but I’ll go Barzal

 

[NJ DevLolz]

Barzal is special, Provorov is just very good.

 

[LordNeverLose]

Barzal is special, Provorov is just very good.

Being very good at such a young age playing high minutes at D is pretty special though.

 

[ookhaab]

I'll take the proven #1 D who actually faces the top competition, over barzal.

 

[FlyTimmo]

For me to think about selecting Barzal, I need to see him repeat or surpass what he did last season. I want to see how he looks when he gets tougher matchups, and I want to see how he does in a more defensive system.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

2 of my favourite prospects from 2015. Really depends if you want a #1 Franchise Center, or a #1 Franchise D man. Toss a coin.

 

[Tripod]

Barzal is special, Provorov is just very good.

That just very good guy just led the NHL in goals by a Dman without being in the top PP unit.

Both guys are special. Sorry you guys took Zacha,

For Philly, the #1 D would be the choice.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

Can you imagine Stamkos-Barzal-Point down the middle??

Barzal. No disrespect to provorov tho

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Give me Provorov, even if both pan out as elite players Provorov will fill the bigger value/harder to find position

Really? You think an elite two-way D is more valuable and harder to find than a superstar playmaking #1C?

Historically, that is the opposite of the truth. The only centers of Barzal’s caliber that have changed outside of the draft since the lockout are Joe Thornton, John Tavares, and Tyler Seguin. Two of those guys are goal scoring centers who do not have the dynamic playmaking ability that Barzal does and Barzal has already played at roughly the same level of player as those two.

Meanwhile, for defensemen in that same time frame, you’ve got Zdeno Chara, Ryan Suter, Brent Burns, Scott Niedermayer, Chris Pronger, PK Subban, and Shea Weber; just 7 Norris finalists/winners off the top of my head that have been traded or signed in UFA. Then you’ve got Seth Jones, Dougie Hamilton, and Dustin Byfuglien as guys who were all pretty close to that level.

Since the lockout, 10 defensemen comparable to Provorov have changed hands through trade or UFA and only 3 centers comparable to Barzal have changed hands through trade or UFA in that some time frame. #1 playmaking centers are definitely more difficult to find than elite two-way defensemen. I don’t see how anybody can realistically dispute that with the data we have. Then we move onto your other point; the defenseman being more valuable than the center. That’s also the opposite of the truth.

Carolina in 2006, Pittsburgh in 2017, and Washington in 2018 all won with a #1 defenseman notably inferior to Provorov. Meanwhile, only Anaheim in 2007 won with a #1C who you can argue is worse than Barzal, and even then, Andy MacDonald and Ryan Getzlaf are both debatably comparable to Barzal.

#1 centers are more valuable and more difficult to acquire than #1 defensemen. I also think Barzal is a better center than Provorov is a defensemen so that makes it a little easier for me but I’m still picking Barzal with no questions asked.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

Really? You think an elite two-way D is harder to find than a superstar playmaking #1C?

To be completely fair you have a bit of bias, having Joe Thornton gifted to your team

So you might value playmakingcenters higher than most

 

[TOGuy14]

I take Provo in a landslide from a Leafs POV, and only a slight edge if evaluating in vacuum

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

To be completely fair you have a bit of bias, having Joe Thornton gifted to your team

So you might value playmakingcenters higher than most

Similar to Steven Stamkos whose career you’ve watched, Joe Thornton’s playoff performances over the course of 4 rounds have never been at the level that a team needs their playoff performances to be from their #1 centers.

The fact that Joe Thornton is the best #1 center acquired outside of the draft and even he has never been good enough to be a Stanley Cup #1C is precisely why I place such a high premium on playmaking #1Cs. Getting a #1C without drafting them almost guarantees that you’ll be getting a flawed player at the position where you can least afford flaws. To have a #1C that performs in the playoffs the way that Thornton does in the regular season is something the Sharks have never had and so I really put a premium on it.

Also, you can see my edited post to get a better understanding of why I put such a high premium on a playmaking #1 center.

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

Really? You think an elite two-way D is more valuable and harder to find than a superstar playmaking #1C?

Historically, that is the opposite of the truth. The only centers of Barzal’s caliber that have changed outside of the draft since the lockout are Joe Thornton, John Tavares, and Tyler Seguin. Two of those guys are goal scoring centers who do not have the dynamic playmaking ability that Barzal does and Barzal has already played at roughly the same level of player as those two.

Meanwhile, for defensemen in that same time frame, you’ve got Zdeno Chara, Ryan Suter, Brent Burns, Scott Niedermayer, Chris Pronger, PK Subban, and Shea Weber; just 7 Norris finalists/winners off the top of my head that have been traded or signed in UFA. Then you’ve got Seth Jones, Dougie Hamilton, and Dustin Byfuglien as guys who were all pretty close to that level.

Since the lockout, 10 defensemen comparable to Provorov have changed hands through trade or UFA and only 3 centers comparable to Barzal have changed hands through trade or UFA in that some time frame. #1 playmaking centers are definitely more difficult to find than elite two-way defensemen. I don’t see how anybody can realistically dispute that with the data we have. Then we move onto your other point; the defenseman being more valuable than the center. That’s also the opposite of the truth.

Carolina in 2006, Pittsburgh in 2017, and Washington in 2018 all won with a #1 defenseman notably inferior to Provorov. Meanwhile, only Anaheim in 2007 won with a #1C who you can argue is worse than Barzal, and even then, Andy MacDonald and Ryan Getzlaf are both debatably comparable to Barzal.

#1 centers are more valuable and more difficult to acquire than #1 defensemen. I also think Barzal is a better center than Provorov is a defensemen so that makes it a little easier for me but I’m still picking Barzal with no questions asked.

You really couldnt be more wrong

Go make a poll asking whats harder to find, a 1C or 1D. It isnt even close dude...

NOW, if were arguing a top 10 D or top 10 C, give me the top 10 C. But which is harder to find and more valuable isnt even close

 

[VoluntaryDom]

Similar to Steven Stamkos whose career you’ve watched, Joe Thornton’s playoff performances over the course of 4 rounds have never been at the level that a team needs their playoff performances to be from their #1 centers.

The fact that Joe Thornton is the best #1 center acquired outside of the draft and even he has never been good enough to be a Stanley Cup #1C is precisely why I place such a high premium on playmaking #1Cs. Getting a #1C without drafting them almost guarantees that you’ll be getting a flawed player at the position where you can least afford flaws. To have a #1C that performs in the playoffs the way that Thornton does in the regular season is something the Sharks have never had and so I really put a premium on it.

Also, you can see my edited post to get a better understanding of why I put such a high premium on a playmaking #1 center.

Your reasoning makes sense for sure. I’ve never really thought about that question.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

You really couldnt be more wrong

Go make a poll asking whats harder to find, a 1C or 1D. It isnt even close dude...

NOW, if were arguing a top 10 D or top 10 C, give me the top 10 C. But which is harder to find and more valuable isnt even close

What are you talking about? We can make a poll in the polls section, and the #1C would probably win. But that would be completely irrelevant, and I couldn’t care less if the polls section got it right, because we literally have the facts right here.

Ten different #1D who are comparable to or superior to Provorov, have changed hands outside of the draft since the lockout. Meanwhile, only 3 different #1Cs who are comparable to or superior to Barzal, have changed hands outside of the draft since the lockout. Three different teams have won Stanley Cups with #1 defensemen who are notably inferior to Provorov since the lockout while only one team has won a Stanley Cup with a #1 center who is notably inferior to Barzal and that one is a lot more debatable than the three defensemen and Provorov.

There’s my evidence for why a #1C is harder to acquire and more important for success than a #1D. Do you care to provide any sort of evidence to back your viewpoint, or even make any sort of argument? Or will it just boil down to “go start a poll”? Because if that’s all you’ve got, you’re not worth responding to any further.

 

[LordNeverLose]

You really couldnt be more wrong

Go make a poll asking whats harder to find, a 1C or 1D. It isnt even close dude...

NOW, if were arguing a top 10 D or top 10 C, give me the top 10 C. But which is harder to find and more valuable isnt even close

Why would 1D be greater than 1C, but top-10 D is less than top-10 C?

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Why would 1D be greater than 1C, but top-10 D is less than top-10 C?

I think the agenda behind that portion of his post was a slick backhander to make the false implication that Barzal is certainly not a top-10C.