Mask or no Mask Part IV

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Kelly

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Nov 12, 2012
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The mask wearing doesn't really bother me, though it is now mandatory in Ontario. I just have some questions;

Why now? Wouldn't this of been something that would've had greater benefits say.... 4 months ago?
How long? Wearing a mask doesn't bother me like it does some people, but for how long? a month? until a vaccine is developed and sent out? Forever? I just don't want this to become a new norm.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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Aug 28, 2006
52,271
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The mask wearing doesn't really bother me, though it is now mandatory in Ontario. I just have some questions;

Why now? Wouldn't this of been something that would've had greater benefits say.... 4 months ago?
How long? Wearing a mask doesn't bother me like it does some people, but for how long? a month? until a vaccine is developed and sent out? Forever? I just don't want this to become a new norm.

Nobody is going to require masks after a vaccine has been widely distributed.
 
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42

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Sep 8, 2013
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The mask wearing doesn't really bother me, though it is now mandatory in Ontario. I just have some questions;

Why now? Wouldn't this of been something that would've had greater benefits say.... 4 months ago?
How long? Wearing a mask doesn't bother me like it does some people, but for how long? a month? until a vaccine is developed and sent out? Forever? I just don't want this to become a new norm.
Indefinitely. A few things need to happen before we can relax. And remember, masks are not the only measure. They go along with physical distancing and hand-washing.

It's looking more and more like SARS-CoV-2 will (has already?) become endemic, which means it'll be with us forever, like the other corona viruses. The other corona viruses only cause mild illness in most people so we don't worry about them. But SARS-CoV-2 causes much more severe illness in many people and we need to make sure we keep infections to a minimum or else many people will die.

Our best bet is an effective vaccine that confers immunity for at least a year. Then vaccinate at least 70% of the population and you'll get enough people immune and not being vectors of the virus, which leads to containment in most places with occasional outbreaks here and there. It's at this time that we can relax. How long will this take? No one knows. It won't be this year and likely won't be next.
 

SJGoalie32

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Apr 7, 2007
3,247
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Psyfer said:
The problem is the media has scared people so much that they are afraid to leave their homes and it's hard to dial back when you have nailed this into them every night for last 6 months.

No, not the media.

I take my cues from public health officials. From doctors, nurses, scientists, epidemiologists, etc.

Nearly every single person who deals with this stuff professionally--from the front line health care workers, to the lab technicians, to hospital administrators, to health officials at nearly every local, state, national, and global level--are freaked out by this thing.

The people who deal constantly in illness, disease, and death are freaked out by this.

The people who have studied and treated every one of the most infectious and deadliest disease known to humans and beyond all over the world--AIDS, MERS, SARS, Ebola, West Nile, Bubonic Plague, Zika, Swine Flu, Avian Flu--are treating this differently than anything they've ever seen before.

Hospitals whose entire reason for existing involves treating very sick people are being completely overwhelmed and unable to provide necessary supplies and equipment. And that has been even with massive restrictions on economic and social movement. Even the slightest moves to reopen a bare minimum of in-person commerce in some places are sparking massive waves that are overloading local hospital capacity.

Even the people who most literally deal in death--morticians--can't process the bodies fast enough.

This is so far beyond a few sensationalist clickbait headlines or a benign story ratcheted up to 11 for ratings maximization.

This is a global health crisis the likes of which we haven't seen in our lifetimes. Public health officials are taking steps they haven't utilized in a century. The last time a pandemic comparable to this occurred, it claimed the lives of 50 million people. And a major reason that virus killed as many as it did is because then, just like today, there were a bunch of people refusing to take it seriously, politicians more concerned with their public image than public health, and people dismissing the virus as overblown hysteria.
 

42

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This is a global health crisis the likes of which we haven't seen in our lifetimes. Public health officials are taking steps they haven't utilized in a century. The last time a pandemic comparable to this occurred, it claimed the lives of 50 million people. And a major reason that virus killed as many as it did is because then, just like today, there were a bunch of people refusing to take it seriously, politicians more concerned with their public image than public health, and people dismissing the virus as overblown hysteria.
Some things never change.

Describing people's reactions to the Black Death in the 14th century Italy, Boccaccio wrote. Some people maintained that “the surest medicine for such an evil disease was to drink heavily, enjoy life’s pleasures, and go about singing and having fun, satisfying their appetites by any means available, while laughing at everything.” Others, he observed, “formed themselves into companies and lived in isolation from everyone else.”
 

Milhouse40

Registered User
Aug 19, 2010
22,058
24,580
The mask wearing doesn't really bother me, though it is now mandatory in Ontario. I just have some questions;

Why now? Wouldn't this of been something that would've had greater benefits say.... 4 months ago?
How long? Wearing a mask doesn't bother me like it does some people, but for how long? a month? until a vaccine is developed and sent out? Forever? I just don't want this to become a new norm.

Yes, it would have been better to wear mask 4 months ago but 2 things prevented that from happening.
1- The lack of mask on the market and the lack of knowledge about cloth mask.
2- Try to sell that to politicians and to the population without proving pre-symptomatic transmission is happening.

Sadly for the mask, the real answer is....we don't know and no one does.
I can say that it's going to be here all of winter that's 99% sure.
All this is to prevent the 2nd wave from happening which is going to be this winter.
 
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HockeyAddict

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t2il7o1voqb51.jpg
 

Blender

Registered User
Dec 2, 2009
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Good luck with that. Already people are starting to get fed up. Stretch it too far and there will be way more defectors coming over to the other side. People want to live their lives, there is only so long the media can keep them paralyzed through fear.
I know the thread is closed, but maybe respond to the replies from the last thread before you just start spewing the same talking points out in this thread?

Mask or no mask Part III
The most important part you are missing from the definition is "verifiable". Personal anecdotes are not verifiable as they are not corroborated by objective evidence. They do not hold up to scrutiny, and are therefore not empirical. One of the other definition speaks exactly to this as well, that you of course ignored: "capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment". Posting personal anecdotes and unsubstantiated claims and claiming that means you are using critical thinking is so far off base to barely warrant response.

Appealing to conventional wisdom is a logical fallacy. Just because something has been believed for a long time or by a lot of people does not mean it is true.

The efficacy of masks are substantiated, the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine is not. Being "biased" towards things that have been demonstrated and against things that have not is the position the media should be taking.

Mask or no mask Part III
Wow, after all the discussion you still don't get it. You are obstinately closed-minded and I'm afraid trying to reason with you will be ineffective.

You equate mask wearing, which is based on clear evidence and which experts advocate, to organized religion, which is void of evidence and relies on blind faith?

Curious, do you believe the moon landing was a hoax or that 9/11 was an inside job or that aliens built the Egyptian pyramids?

Mask or no mask Part III
So I'm assuming you disregard all traffic signals when driving, don't wear shoes or socks in stores ever, smoke on airplanes and bring firearms, frequently urinate and defecate in public...

you're a real free thinker man.
 

Pyromaniac

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May 29, 2012
5,091
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I know the thread is closed, but maybe respond to the replies from the last thread before you just start spewing the same talking points out in this thread?
I didn't know you were such an authority in this thread. I will be sure to consult you the next time I want to make a post. I decided to agree to disagree with those posters and turn the page. There is only so much time one can spend arguing with people who have already made up their minds. Besides its a beautiful day to be out and about without a mask.
 
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42

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Sep 8, 2013
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I didn't know you were such an authority in this thread. I will be sure to consult you the next time I want to make a post. I decided to agree to disagree with those posters and turn the page. There is only so much time one can spend arguing with people who have already made up their minds. Besides its a beautiful day to be out and about without a mask.
You're accusing posters of the same intellectual vices they detect in you, a very typical trait of closed-minded people. We say you are closed-minded and you turn around and accuse us of being closed-minded. Yet we have given very specific evidence for our convictions. You have never given one objective and substantive reason for your beliefs, refusing to acknowledge your logical fallacies when they are clearly pointed out to you. Who's already made up their minds? The posters you accuse or you?
 

Fatass

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Apr 17, 2017
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I didn't know you were such an authority in this thread. I will be sure to consult you the next time I want to make a post. I decided to agree to disagree with those posters and turn the page. There is only so much time one can spend arguing with people who have already made up their minds. Besides its a beautiful day to be out and about without a mask.

Outside without mask, in most circumstances, is fine because we are moving and physically distant. It’s indoors, when we are in close and continued contact, that science shows masks reduce viral spread.
I’m all for choice, but you keep making excuses for not wearing a mask (indoors when physical distancing isn’t possible) that are confrontational.
Why not just say it’s your personal choice, rather than insulting those who do wear masks with excuses that have no basis in science?
The science is clear. This is not arguable.
 

Pyromaniac

Registered User
May 29, 2012
5,091
699
Outside without mask, in most circumstances, is fine because we are moving and physically distant. It’s indoors, when we are in close and continued contact, that science shows masks reduce viral spread.
I’m all for choice, but you keep making excuses for not wearing a mask (indoors when physical distancing isn’t possible) that are confrontational.
Why not just say it’s your personal choice, rather than insulting those who do wear masks with excuses that have no basis in science?
The science is clear. This is not arguable.
Sorry but I had to laugh, I have insulted no one and responded calmly despite pejoratives being directed my way for my beliefs.

I have also used evidence that the WHO itself compiled early in the pandemic which was cited to discourage mask use. This included a false sense of security by mask-wearers, lack of hygiene and improper mask usage. None of these problems have disappeared. I have carefully observed my own interactions with others while wearing a mask and without and have arrived at the same conclusion. Masks are less effective than they are advertised as being.
 

Blender

Registered User
Dec 2, 2009
51,305
45,253
I didn't know you were such an authority in this thread. I will be sure to consult you the next time I want to make a post. I decided to agree to disagree with those posters and turn the page. There is only so much time one can spend arguing with people who have already made up their minds. Besides its a beautiful day to be out and about without a mask.
Who said I was an "authority"? You have continuously done this in these threads, you post a bunch of unsubstantiated nonsense and personal anecdotes, get called out for it, refuse to respond to any evidence presented to you, then pop back up later putting out the exact same talking points again without actually addressing any of the counter points.

"Agree to disagree" is just a red herring fallacy, it's a deliberate diversion from the topic being discussed because the person can't substantiate what they are saying and want to move onto a different topic.
 

42

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Sep 8, 2013
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Toronto Nebula
Sorry but I had to laugh, I have insulted no one and responded calmly despite pejoratives being directed my way for my beliefs.

I have also used evidence that the WHO itself compiled early in the pandemic which was cited to discourage mask use. This included a false sense of security by mask-wearers, lack of hygiene and improper mask usage. None of these problems have disappeared. I have carefully observed my own interactions with others while wearing a mask and without and have arrived at the same conclusion. Masks are less effective than they are advertised as being.
False sense of security, lack of hygiene and improper mask usage are still concerns yes but the benefits outweighs the risks. Educating people to understand these risks so they can do their best to avoid them is better than telling them not to wear masks. In fact, that is the conclusion public health experts have reached as they have learned more about the pandemic. Opinions in science change as new information becomes available. You're clinging to the recommendations from the beginning of the pandemic.

Masks are less effective than advertised? Who's advertising what level of effectiveness that you dispute? No one has claimed masks are 100% effective. Everyone has said they are more effective than not wearing them, all else being equal.
 

Tad Mikowsky

Only Droods
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Jun 30, 2008
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Sorry but I had to laugh, I have insulted no one and responded calmly despite pejoratives being directed my way for my beliefs.

I have also used evidence that the WHO itself compiled early in the pandemic which was cited to discourage mask use. This included a false sense of security by mask-wearers, lack of hygiene and improper mask usage. None of these problems have disappeared. I have carefully observed my own interactions with others while wearing a mask and without and have arrived at the same conclusion. Masks are less effective than they are advertised as being.

No. You said you didn’t see a single study and now are saying that masks are less effective, without any back up. Which is par the course for you.

For someone who said opposing opinions broaden horizons, you don’t follow a word you say. So why should we?
 

Treb

Global Flanderator
May 31, 2011
28,179
27,934
Montreal
Indefinitely. A few things need to happen before we can relax. And remember, masks are not the only measure. They go along with physical distancing and hand-washing.

It's looking more and more like SARS-CoV-2 will (has already?) become endemic, which means it'll be with us forever, like the other corona viruses. The other corona viruses only cause mild illness in most people so we don't worry about them. But SARS-CoV-2 causes much more severe illness in many people and we need to make sure we keep infections to a minimum or else many people will die.

Our best bet is an effective vaccine that confers immunity for at least a year. Then vaccinate at least 70% of the population and you'll get enough people immune and not being vectors of the virus, which leads to containment in most places with occasional outbreaks here and there. It's at this time that we can relax. How long will this take? No one knows. It won't be this year and likely won't be next.

We'll have a vaccine by the end of 2021 if not 2020, book it.
 

Milhouse40

Registered User
Aug 19, 2010
22,058
24,580
Why does my opinion anger you this much? All I have stated is that it is my opinion the evidence isn't there to support mandating masks considering the risks they do pose as has been outlined by the WHO early in the pandemic. These concerns never went away and are being downplayed because masks have become a political statement. I cited HCQ as another drug that has been politicized. When stuff gets polarized into Camp A and Camp B, people from either camp get angrily irrational when confronted with dissent. I am sure if I went to the anti-mask protest at Queen's park and confronted them with facts regarding masks they would be just as angry as you are.

Edit: Also unlike a few others I have never claimed to be some sort of authority on the subject, I am just voicing what I believe in.

That all depends where you live.

Mask has been politicize in the United States only.
In the other countries, it's mostly only a bunch of conspiracy theorist who think they live in the US, the very vast majority follow guidelines.
 

StrangeVision

Wear a mask.
Apr 1, 2007
24,477
9,339
That all depends where you live.

Mask has been politicize in the United States only.
In the other countries, it's mostly only a bunch of conspiracy theorist who think they live in the US, the very vast majority follow guidelines.

That's pretty much what we have here, too. There is not a single legitimate argument against masks that does not involve a conspiracy theory.
 
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Fatass

Registered User
Apr 17, 2017
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Sorry but I had to laugh, I have insulted no one and responded calmly despite pejoratives being directed my way for my beliefs.

I have also used evidence that the WHO itself compiled early in the pandemic which was cited to discourage mask use. This included a false sense of security by mask-wearers, lack of hygiene and improper mask usage. None of these problems have disappeared. I have carefully observed my own interactions with others while wearing a mask and without and have arrived at the same conclusion. Masks are less effective than they are advertised as being.
“Less effective” still means has positive effect.
You chose to not wear a mask; that’s fine. It’s the argument you propose (attacking overwhelming science, and common sense) that fails.
Just say you choose to not wear a mask indoors, even when physical distancing isn’t possible. Don’t make excuses for your choice.
In BC we have our head health officials, dr. Henry, who is quite well known and respected for how she led this Province in its Covid campaign. She never considered a mask order. She says it’s recommended people wear masks indoors, when physical distancing isn’t possible. She doesn’t ignore the science, or argue against it, like you’re doing.
Just state you choose to not follow what every to heath official is saying is best for the community. You’re excuses express dishonest intent.
 
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