Martin Marincin

Jimmy Firecracker

Fire Sheldon.
Mar 30, 2010
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In any case, I don’t know why the Leafs aren’t drafting bigger defensemen. I just looked at our history over the past 2 drafts where Dubas has had full control and of the 7 defensemen we’ve drafted in that span, only two of them had heights that started with 6, and of those two one was traded away (though it was for Muzzin which has been great for us). The other 5 range from 5’11 to 5’9”.

Now obviously expecting defensemen drafted one to two years ago to be immediate help is silly (unless they’re top 5 picks) but it is concerning that our recent additions to the prospect pipeline for defence are all on the short side.

Maybe Dubas is trying to do the exact opposite of Hunter, who drafted a lot of giant sized defensemen during the three drafts he ran (Dermott and Liljegren were the shortest, being 6 feet even). Now granted, none of those big defensemen look like anything special, but going the complete opposite way and avoiding large defensemen doesn’t sound like a great plan either.

Going forward even if we draft big defensemen they won’t be helpful for years. I have hopes for Sandin and Liljegren but they aren’t bruisers. Not saying they won’t or can’t be solid in their own end but they won’t be punishers like Muzzin.

Big, physical defensive help will have to come via trade or free agency at this point if we want to help this team immediately.
 
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Mickey Marner

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Jul 9, 2014
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Yep, we have a prospect pool over-saturated with undersized defensemen that can't crack our roster over some elongated goof. Brilliant. Hopefully dressing Marincin was a tacit admission that he f***ed up and will rectify the situation.
 
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Stephen

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Feb 28, 2002
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krug and ellis are tough as nails

Absolutely. Both will take a beating to make a play. But Krug also plays with Brandon Carlo to play the role the Leafs use Marincin for, and Ellis plays with Josi, but I think he also played with Ekholm.
 

Stephen

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Feb 28, 2002
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Yep, we have a prospect pool over-saturated with undersized defensemen that can't crack our roster over some elongated goof. Brilliant. Hopefully dressing Marincin was a tacit admission that he f***ed up and will rectify the situation.

In the end, it's not genius level work, but just good, tidy housekeeping for a reasonable general manager to stock the system with projectable player types that can be brought along and be used in key situations down the road.

All those small guys have to be exceptional to play over Martin Marincin. A bigger defenseman who can play a role just has to be a little better than Martin Marincin.
 

biotk

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Jan 3, 2017
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Absolutely. Both will take a beating to make a play. But Krug also plays with Brandon Carlo to play the role the Leafs use Marincin for, and Ellis plays with Josi, but I think he also played with Ekholm.

Yes, Ellis spent years playing with Ekholm. They both have spent years playing with big defensive minded partners. Yes, they are tough as nails, but Sandin and Liljegren are not - at least at this point in time - so it makes zero sense of play them with partners who are not big and defensive minded.
 

Stephen

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Feb 28, 2002
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Yes, Ellis spent years playing with Ekholm. They both have spent years playing with big defensive minded partners. Yes, they are tough as nails, but Sandin and Liljegren are not - at least at this point in time - so it makes zero sense of play them with partners who are not big and defensive minded.

Agreed. Sandin will be a great defenseman regardless of size, but will probably reach more of his potential if he has a big brother type partner who can help him do the heavy lifting and dirty work out there. That's a cue for Dubas to bring along other defense prospects who can grow into that role, not stockpile a bunch of smaller guys who do the same things Sandin does, but worse. That's not logical.
 
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biotk

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Agreed. Sandin will be a great defenseman regardless of size, but will probably reach more of his potential if he has a big brother type partner who can help him do the heavy lifting and dirty work out there. That's a cue for Dubas to bring along other defense prospects who can grow into that role, not stockpile a bunch of smaller guys who do the same things Sandin does, but worse. That's not logical.

Sandin made huge leaps in his AHL rookie year in part because he was paired with LoVerde - a veteran, smart, physical, defensive D who he could soak up knowledge like a sponge from.

I am kind of hoping that if the plan is for either Sandin or Liljegren to be on the third pair the Leafs try to sign someone like Del Zotto who will probably be under 1M AAV. I don't know if he can play on the right side, but regardless, he was a first round pick. Full-time in the NHL as a 19 year old in a major market (Rangers). This is a guy who knows what it is like to come into the league when you are young 1st round pick and after 11 seasons he knows how to play in the league and what to expect. Originally an offensive D. Plays physical, fitness and health fanatic. Should be a great mentor.

There is not a lot of those types of guys around, especially who shoot right, who are now third pairing D, and will not cost too much, but who have a lot of great experience. Maybe Braun, Hainsey, Engelland.
 
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IPS

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Sep 28, 2017
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Sandin made huge leaps in his AHL rookie year in part because he was paired with LoVerde - a veteran, smart, physical, defensive D who he could soak up knowledge like a sponge from.

I am kind of hoping that if the plan is for either Sandin or Liljegren to be on the third pair the Leafs try to sign someone like Del Zotto who will probably be under 1M AAV. I don't know if he can play on the right side, but regardless, he was a first round pick. Full-time in the NHL as a 19 year old in a major market (Rangers). This is a guy who knows what it is like to come into the league when you are young 1st round pick and after 11 seasons he knows how to play in the league and what to expect. Originally an offensive D. Plays physical, fitness and health fanatic. Should be a great mentor.

There is not a lot of those types of guys around, especially who shoot right, who are now third pairing D, and will not cost too much, but who have a lot of great experience. Maybe Braun, Hainsey, Engelland.

Dermott should be traded IMO. I've backed him for awhile but I've seen almost no advancements in his game in the last 2 years. It's high time that Sandin gets that spot in the lineup. I'd also throw Gudas into that mix of defensemen, get someone who's big and can do the heavy lifting in font of the net and down low.

My fantasy for next year is basically trading Marner + Johnsson + Kapanen and bringing in Pietrangelo + Gudas to bring the defense to respectability.

Rielly - Pietrangelo
Muzzin - Holl
Sandin - Gudas

And rework the secondary scoring on the Leafs. Completely the wrong cast of supporting players.

In any case, I don’t know why the Leafs aren’t drafting bigger defensemen. I just looked at our history over the past 2 drafts where Dubas has had full control and of the 7 defensemen we’ve drafted in that span, only two of them had heights that started with 6, and of those two one was traded away (though it was for Muzzin which has been great for us). The other 5 range from 5’11 to 5’9”.

And then he proceeded to burn the best trade chip on yet another small puck mover in Barrie. Just makes no f***ing sense at all.
 

biotk

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Dermott should be traded IMO. I've backed him for awhile but I've seen almost no advancements in his game in the last 2 years. It's high time that Sandin gets that spot in the lineup. I'd also throw Gudas into that mix of defensemen, get someone who's big and can do the heavy lifting in font of the net and down low.

My fantasy for next year is basically trading Marner + Johnsson + Kapanen and bringing in Pietrangelo + Gudas to bring the defense to respectability.

Rielly - Pietrangelo
Muzzin - Holl
Sandin - Gudas

And rework the secondary scoring on the Leafs. Completely the wrong cast of supporting players.

I would love Gudas. Don't know if he would be cheap enough. Of course, Pietrangelo would be great, but I honestly don't think he is making a big move. Regardless your D-core looks very good there. As it assumes trading Marner, I am still partial for trying to find a way to get Ekblad for Marner - which is probably just pie in the sky. Regardless in either situation, I think that Dermott either has to be top-4 (which undoubtedly means on the right) by next season or moved. For me essentially anyone can be traded this off season for the right deal.

And yes, it is getting near impossible for any defense of the Barrie trade. It was a massive missed opportunity.
 

IPS

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I would love Gudas. Don't know if he would be cheap enough. Of course, Pietrangelo would be great, but I honestly don't think he is making a big move. Regardless your D-core looks very good there. As it assumes trading Marner, I am still partial for trying to find a way to get Ekblad for Marner - which is probably just pie in the sky. Regardless in either situation, I think that Dermott either has to be top-4 (which undoubtedly means on the right) by next season or moved. For me essentially anyone can be traded this off season for the right deal.

And yes, it is getting near impossible for any defense of the Barrie trade. It was a massive missed opportunity.

I'm well aware Pietrangelo is a major longshot, I'm not counting on it. But Ekblad is interesting, if Florida really is interested in redoing their core Toronto better damn well be all over that. As far as Dermott goes, he's about as close to a do or die as a player can be. Sandin cannot be in the AHL next year, I believe he'll be way too good for that league with another offseason of development. If Dermott can't crack the top-4, Sandin should easily steal is spot IMO. I also believe it's imperative the Leafs acquire him the proper partner.
 
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LEAFANFORLIFE23

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Jun 17, 2010
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Martin Marincin should NEVER be in the lineup literally NEVER and if is it can't be because ONE guy got hurt heit's got to because 4 or guys are out, he's got to be the LAST f***ing option.

Martin Marincin is not NHL caliber, if he was the defense wouldn't fall apart because ONE guy goes down but it does and that's because guys like Marincin or Calle Rosen, hell even Justin Holl are not good enough, Muzzin went down and Holl went to total shit Muzzin carries Holl every game and boy did that become clear real quick.

Teams like Boston would never play Marincin because they have guys like John Moore they have NHL caliber guys on defense that don't play every game so if there is an injury they aren't totally f***ed.

But Toronto is because Dubas hasn't done his job properly
 

Stephen

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Feb 28, 2002
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These all purpose defensemen the Leafs are lacking are not unicorns by any stretch of the imagination.

Any organization that’s paying attention can look to a number of college, junior and European programs, look for well structured defensive programs that go deep in the playoffs and start looking at viable athletes who can project to being those kinds of players at the NHL level and put them through their development system for a few years. And they just have to be a little better than Marincin and you’re already improving.

How do you think teams like Boston, San Jose, Columbus, Los Angeles, St. Louis and Carolina find these guys in mid rounds?
 

biotk

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I'm well aware Pietrangelo is a major longshot, I'm not counting on it. But Ekblad is interesting, if Florida really is interested in redoing their core Toronto better damn well be all over that. As far as Dermott goes, he's about as close to a do or die as a player can be. Sandin cannot be in the AHL next year, I believe he'll be way too good for that league with another offseason of development. If Dermott can't crack the top-4, Sandin should easily steal is spot IMO. I also believe it's imperative the Leafs acquire him the proper partner.

I agree with all this. I think that if Sandin is not in the lineup next year he should be traded. You can't go from 28 games in the NHL one season to the AHL the next, and still have the team expect the player to turn out.
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
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I'm well aware Pietrangelo is a major longshot, I'm not counting on it. But Ekblad is interesting, if Florida really is interested in redoing their core Toronto better damn well be all over that. As far as Dermott goes, he's about as close to a do or die as a player can be. Sandin cannot be in the AHL next year, I believe he'll be way too good for that league with another offseason of development. If Dermott can't crack the top-4, Sandin should easily steal is spot IMO. I also believe it's imperative the Leafs acquire him the proper partner.

I think the stars may aligning for a Dermott trade this off season.

Even though he has t quite cracked that top 4 role yet, he's young enough that he still had the "potential" clout which translates to trade value. That value will decrease a fair amount by next off-season unless he's a consistent top 4 guy next season

I think Sandin should get more of a priority for a lineup position for the sake of development.

That said of management and coaches really believe in Dermott no sense of driving him out of town yet
 

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