Martin Marincin

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
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51,520
I want to talk about the phenomenon that is Martin Marincin and a couple of other things.

This guy has been with the organization since 2015 and has completed five partial NHL seasons of below average defense on a part time basis. On most nights displays an alarming lack of hockey sense, composure and unreliable skillset. He fans on pucks, struggles to exit the zone, produces no offense and can barely control himself from making unforced icing plays from near center ice. He’s even survived a Mike Babcock regime change and given the choice between Marincin and Sandin or Liljegren, even Keefe elected to start Martin Marincin.

But I’m actually not here to bash Marincin or second guess Keefe. I want to highlight that given the circumstances, even a skill and speed team recognizes they need a 6’5” crease clearing, defensively inclined player in a playoff series with heavy forechecking. Let’s agree that even though we aren’t St. Louis or Columbus, our team felt like it needed that ingredient. Why else keep Marincin around for half a decade, and why else would you play him in big game situations?

This brings me to my real point. When rubber hits the road, even the Leafs realize they need these types of players. And given the personnel choices and player types the Leafs have focused on over the years we don’t really have a lot of options other than Martin Marincin.

So given this reality, why are we not spending a little more energy trying to find and develop these bigger body defensive assets lower in the draft? If we have our Sandin and Liljegren skill options in the system, do we need to consider trying to focus on finding guys like Gavrikov so we have other non Marincin options? Seems like we abandoned that project after Gordeev and Rasanen.

If we don’t have Marincin alternatives, why are we spending so much energy on drafting signing and developing guys like Hollowell, Kivihalme and Koster? I understand they’re looking for a Torey Krug and sometimes that takes a few kicks at the can. But even if you do develop a 5’9” puck mover you don’t have the Boston infrastructure to support him. And your system isn’t building defensive depth defensemen to help the big club.

What I’m getting at is drafting and developing skill is fine but the organization needs to be honest with real world playoff needs and start building the kind of role players and player types that a real functional team needs. The farm system can’t just be a collection of nice practice players than ultimately are not useful and don’t help when things really matter.
 

shaner8989

Registered User
Aug 6, 2005
22,841
4,771
It's one of the biggest jokes in sports.

I have been begging for this pos to be gone. Management is a disgrace. He's back every f***ing year.

Shame on this pathetic franchise
 
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wingman75

Registered User
Dec 3, 2008
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The QC
As bad as he is, and he is a fringe AHLer, he was not our worst performer in this seasons qualifier round.

The problem is that we have zero dept at D that the organization seems to trust. Hopefully that changes heading into next season with Sandin and others.

I want him gone from our org. I still remember the day he was added to our roster (via trade no less) and my memories of how bad he was with the Oilers... smh.
 

TMLegend

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May 27, 2012
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They don't prioritize big/defensively inclined players, simple as that. And it's not like they've had any success drafting that way when they had. Gauthier is a fringe Nhler and he's the only player I can think of who's calling card was two-way play that's made some sort of impact at the NHL level within the last 10 years. Maybe Connor Brown too, but he's since been traded.

They could really use a Brandon Carlo type on the backend, but of course they passed on him for Dermott in 2015.
 
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Gallagbi

Formerly Eazy_B97
Jul 5, 2005
48,490
11,109
As much as I agreed with Marincin coming in for his PK abilities, I think it hurt us in the end especially when Barrie went down. We could have used an extra puck mover in that last period.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
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51,520
I think what’s important is just remember what a real playoff series looks like, and if you’re going to run into a few teams that look like Columbus, Boston, Washington, St. Louis potentially one one playoff run, you need certain body types to handle situations.

They already dress and play a guy like Marincin, which means they understand what kind of situations they’ll find themselves in. But a good organization should be stocking those kinds of players so we can plug and play a handful of 6’4” plus guys. So you’re developing a Gavrikov, and you aren’t just relying on Marincin.

Those smaller skill defensemen like Krug and Ellis work if you have guys like Chara, Carlo and Ekholm, but if you put in a 5’9” puck mover beside a 6’0” puck mover you’re not really setting yourself up for success in all situations.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
77,850
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As much as I agreed with Marincin coming in for his PK abilities, I think it hurt us in the end especially when Barrie went down. We could have used an extra puck mover in that last period.

I think we need more all-situation defensemen with wing span to be able to call upon from the defensive stable.
 

TMLegend

Registered User
May 27, 2012
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They just need defenders that compliment each other better. Wouldn't even say they need bigger defenders per se, just more steady reliable types like Muzzin. Size would be a plus obviously. Usually have to develop those guys though, as good top 4 d cost an arm and a leg generally. Hopefully one of rhe youngsters can take a step forward next season.
 
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Buds17

Registered User
Nov 29, 2015
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He's serviceable as an injury fill-in/spot duty defenceman for the regular season. The playoffs though are the grander stage. Two of his three games there were also must wins for the team. The problems there obviously still went beyond having to play an otherwise spare D.
 

Gallagbi

Formerly Eazy_B97
Jul 5, 2005
48,490
11,109
I think we need more all-situation defensemen with wing span to be able to call upon from the defensive stable.
I think the hope is our young Swedes can be the all situation players, even if it is without wingspan.
 

The Iceman

Registered User
Sep 22, 2007
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I was hoping Rosen was above MM on the depth chart but he obviously wasn't. Keefe has seen them both enough to choose.
 

BertCorbeau

F*ck cancer - RIP Fugu and Buffaloed
Jan 6, 2012
55,037
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Simcoe County
He's pretty much what you get out of a #7-8 d-man ... Which is frustrating when you have younger promising players that don't seem to get a chance.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
77,850
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He's pretty much what you get out of a #7-8 d-man ... Which is frustrating when you have younger promising players that don't seem to get a chance.

To me, it says if you think big wingspan defensemen are important, which they are, go and spend more energy developing them. As opposed to player types that we all know won’t be used in playoff situations.
 

desperateblue

Registered User
Jun 17, 2004
957
95
The fact that marincin and ceci both played shows just how bad the scouting in the nhl really is.
Most beer league spectators could watch one game and easily notice that these guys don’t belong.
Being a big body is only an advantage if you know how to use it. More often then not it exposes a total lack of body control and talent.
Being big doesn’t make you an nhl player

should be common sense but we still have Freddy the goat too
 
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biotk

Registered User
Jan 3, 2017
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If we don’t have Marincin alternatives, why are we spending so much energy on drafting signing and developing guys like Hollowell, Kivihalme and Koster?

I brought this up on here days ago when Leafs' fans on here were saying that the Leafs' had to put in Marincin instead of Sandin.

Not that I disagree with the choice of putting Marincin in, but it pretty much shows that Dubas understands his own D pipeline philosophy of Sandin, Liljegren, Kivi, Hollowell, Duszak, Lindgren and the half dozen other small puck-moving D is completely useless and a total waste.

But we need Marincin for the PK was the response...PKs are not some new invention so you would think the team might have considered them when building their pipeline and of course also shows that Dubas appears to understand that his D pipeline philosophy of Sandin, Liljegren, Kivi, Hollowell, Duszak, Lindgren and the half dozen other small puck-moving D is completely useless and a total waste.

But Columbus is a heavy team and this is the playoffs was the response...heavy teams and the playoffs are also not some new invention so you would think the team might have considered them when building their pipeline and of course also shows that Dubas' D pipeline philosophy of Sandin, Liljegren, Kivi, Hollowell, Duszak, Lindgren and the half dozen other small puck-moving D is completely useless and a total waste.
 
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Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
77,850
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I brought this up on here days ago when Leafs' fans on here were saying that the Leafs' had to put in Marincin instead of Sandin.

Not that I disagree with the choice of putting Marincin in, but it pretty much shows that Dubas understands his own D pipeline philosophy of Sandin, Liljegren, Kivi, Hollowell, Duszak, Lindgren and the half dozen other small puck-moving D is completely useless and a total waste.

But we need Marincin for the PK was the response...PKs are not some new invention so you would think the team might have considered them when building their pipeline and of course also shows that Dubas appears to understand that his D pipeline philosophy of Sandin, Liljegren, Kivi, Hollowell, Duszak, Lindgren and the half dozen other small puck-moving D is completely useless and a total waste.

But Columbus is a heavy team and this is the playoffs was the response...heavy teams and the playoffs are also not some new invention so you would think the team might have considered them when building their pipeline and of course also shows that Dubas' D pipeline philosophy of Sandin, Liljegren, Kivi, Hollowell, Duszak, Lindgren and the half dozen other small puck-moving D is completely useless and a total waste.

I think we see things the same way regarding Dubas' "useless pipeline" and I'll use Tampa as a comparable. Over the past few years, he's collected a fair amount of players I would say have zero practical value, but continue to feed the passion project of speed and skill on paper.

At forward, he seems to be spending a lot of energy looking for the next Jonathan Marchessault or Tyler Johnson, following the Tampa Bay model. It's not a bad plan, but he does seem to overstock that type of player, bringing in small players including Der-Arguchintsev, Robertson, Carcone, Petan, Malgin at various levels. But we see the flaw in this system too because guys like Timashov have nowhere to play, Bracco seems to be aging out of prospect status and cannot be used at the NHL level, guys like Dzierkals failed ages ago, etc, and guys like Petan and Malgin are not really viable NHLers. We also have Barabanov coming over next year, and he's also going to be on the small side, so he won't help you play a heavier game.

On defense, Toronto deviates from Tampa significantly. Tampa understands the value of those big defensemen I talk about, having Hedman as a franchise cornerstone but also big talented defensemen like Cernak and Sergachev as building blocks, and have cycled in McDonagh, Coburn, Schenn and Bogosian as veteran acquisitions to beef things up to fill that Ron Hainsey role.

I'm not going to question Sandin or Liljegren, but Toronto's pipeline of Kivihalme, Duszak, Lindgren, Hollowell behind themdoesn't help the big team. It's not developing versatile defensemen to supercede Marincin on the depth chart, and we don't have a Chara or Carlo to support them in a Torey Krug/Matt Gryzlyak role. We also have Mikko Lehtonen who is a shorter defenseman coming over. So again, we'll have to keep Marincin around for the role Dubas and Keefe understands we need to fill but they always neglect.
 
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Faltorvo

Registered User
Feb 18, 2008
21,067
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I think what’s important is just remember what a real playoff series looks like, and if you’re going to run into a few teams that look like Columbus, Boston, Washington, St. Louis potentially one one playoff run, you need certain body types to handle situations.

They already dress and play a guy like Marincin, which means they understand what kind of situations they’ll find themselves in. But a good organization should be stocking those kinds of players so we can plug and play a handful of 6’4” plus guys. So you’re developing a Gavrikov, and you aren’t just relying on Marincin.

Those smaller skill defensemen like Krug and Ellis work if you have guys like Chara, Carlo and Ekholm, but if you put in a 5’9” puck mover beside a 6’0” puck mover you’re not really setting yourself up for success in all situations.
krug and ellis are tough as nails
 

biotk

Registered User
Jan 3, 2017
7,091
5,520
Buffalo
I think we see things the same way regarding Dubas' "useless pipeline" and I'll use Tampa as a comparable. Over the past few years, he's collected a fair amount of players I would say have zero practical value, but continue to feed the passion project of speed and skill on paper.

At forward, he seems to be spending a lot of energy looking for the next Jonathan Marchessault or Tyler Johnson, following the Tampa Bay model. It's not a bad plan, but he does seem to overstock that type of player, bringing in small players including Der-Arguchintsev, Robertson, Carcone, Petan, Malgin at various levels. But we see the flaw in this system too because guys like Timashov have nowhere to play, Bracco seems to be aging out of prospect status and cannot be used at the NHL level, guys like Dzierkals failed ages ago, etc, and guys like Petan and Malgin are not really viable NHLers. We also have Barabanov coming over next year, and he's also going to be on the small side, so he won't help you play a heavier game.

On defense, Toronto deviates from Tampa significantly. Tampa understands the value of those big defensemen I talk about, having Hedman as a franchise cornerstone but also big talented defensemen like Cernak and Sergachev as building blocks, and have cycled in McDonagh, Coburn, Schenn and Bogosian as veteran acquisitions to beef things up to fill that Ron Hainsey role.

I'm not going to question Sandin or Liljegren, but Toronto's pipeline of Kivihalme, Duszak, Lindgren, Hollowell behind themdoesn't help the big team. It's not developing versatile defensemen to supercede Marincin on the depth chart, and we don't have a Chara or Carlo to support them in a Torey Krug/Matt Gryzlyak role. We also have Mikko Lehtonen who is a shorter defenseman coming over. So again, we'll have to keep Marincin around for the role Dubas and Keefe understands we need to fill but they always neglect.

I agree with every word of this. What value does Jesper Lindgren have? He is 23, weighs 160 lbs and doesn't put up good offensive numbers. There are some on here who think he will eventually play NHL games, but I highly doubt any of them would think that if he wasn't in the Leafs' organization.

Some could argue that if the Leafs were to do a good job developing these D they might become good trade chips. But only Durzi has been traded (and he was the largest among these small puck-moving D), the Leafs' hadn't really done a thing in terms of his development (drafted, back to the OHL, traded).

With the exception of Liljegren, Sandin and Kivi, none of these other small puck-moving D has even played a pre-season game - but Rubins played two last fall. Undrafted. Only signed to an ELC this April. Because he brings what none of those other guys bring.

The whole thing is bizarre and sad.
 
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Jimmy Firecracker

Fire Sheldon.
Mar 30, 2010
35,559
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Mississauga
Marincin being our only viable option when ONE of our six defensemen goes down is such an indictment on how this team has failed to develop defensemen over that span. It’s a bloody joke that after the disaster he was against Washington and his stagnation as an AHL only level defender he was still the first guy we called upon when Muzzin went down. Jesus Christ.
 

Havoc

Registered User
Jul 25, 2009
7,271
7,483
Was definitely pretty sad watching guys like Texier and Foudy give our D such a hard time on the fore check and win battles against them. These two dudes were drafted in like 2018 too.

At the same time low IQ and bad puck movement killed us even worse. All the columbus goals came from outside or off the rush. Game 3 loss had nothing to do with a big tough defenceman. A solid puck mover would have clinched that game.

My order of priority for the D is 1.) Smart puck mover 2.) Quality stay at home shot suppressor / crease clearer type.

hoping sandin / lil can take care of 1 so management can focus on 2.
 

Faltorvo

Registered User
Feb 18, 2008
21,067
1,941
This.

We lost for a bunch of reasons. Marincin as our 7D was NOT it.
Barrie was worse

Give him another 1 year contract. But get a proper no 3, 4 and 5
he is inked for 700k next season
2 different GMs and coach's and folks still think they KNOW that MM should not be there

and yet here he is and next year also

just goes to show what they know.
 

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