Marner or Rantanen

Marner or Rantanen


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MrThomas

Registered User
Oct 31, 2017
1,561
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Moscow
Rantanen has better playoff performances because with him the Avalanche have made at least the second round and so far that's not happened for Marner during his time in Toronto.

However in the 2018 playoffs when Toronto played Boston I thought Marner was the Leafs best player since he had 9 points in the seven games.

Well Rantanen only has 8 more playoff games than Marner :D Still having about 2 times more points than him :D
 
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Merrrlin

Grab the 9 iron, Barry!
Jul 2, 2019
6,768
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A lot of passion about two players that a essentially the same value. Would be a lateral move for either team.
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
55,515
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Two guys who create their offense in different ways, IMO.

Rantanen seems more effective when on the cycle and with someone who can gain the offensive zone as the puck carrier through the neutral zone (MacKinnon). Size allows for good puck protection, good passing ability, and an underrated goal scoring touch.

Marner's more of a puck carrier who creates off the rush or off of East-West passing plays. Probably more dynamic at creating offense from further out, better as the primary puck carrier, but not nearly as good as a goal scorer.
 

Muffin

Avalanche Flavoured
Aug 14, 2009
16,534
18,746
Edmonton
Because they are clearly trying to push posters into voting for Rantanen. That is why they posted playoff stats but not any regular season ones (which are a huge set of data to conveniently leave out).

Rantanen 281GP 91G 151A 250P 0.89PPG
Marner 300GP 83G 208A 291P 0.97PPG

These stats are with Marner averaging about 45 seconds less TOI/GP, and full minute less of PPTOI/GP.
Those numbers include Rantanen as a rookie playing on a historically bad team. Their productions are neck in neck for the past 3 seasons. Leafs fans always try to reach for past seasons to discredit other players. "Matthews had the better first 3 years in the league so Matthews>MacKinnon".

Development is not linear and some take longer than others especially big guys like Rantanen take longer because they have to learn to use their body.
 
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Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
55,515
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Those numbers include Rantanen as a rookie playing on a historically bad team. Their productions are neck in neck for the past 3 seasons. Leafs fans always try to reach for past seasons to discredit other players. "Matthews had the better first 3 years in the league so Matthews>MacKinnon".

Development is not linear and some take longer than others especially big guys like Rantanen take longer because they have to learn to use their body.

In fairness, I believe that also includes Marner's rookie season.

But I agree with your overall point that development isn't linear and comparing what a player did as a rookie to determine what they are *now* is questionable.
 

Nizdizzle

Offseason Is The Worst Season
Jul 7, 2007
13,861
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Those numbers include Rantanen as a rookie playing on a historically bad team. Their productions are neck in neck for the past 3 seasons. Leafs fans always try to reach for past seasons to discredit other players. "Matthews had the better first 3 years in the league so Matthews>MacKinnon".

Development is not linear and some take longer than others especially big guys like Rantanen take longer because they have to learn to use their body.
Those numbers include every game both players have played. If playoff stats from 3 or 4 years ago are valid, why aren't regular season stats? Rantanen had a tough time as a rookie on a bad team? I'm sure Marner had a rough go as an undersized rookie onto a team just coming off a 69 point season.

There certainly are Leafs fans on this board that post specific information to try and sway opinion in a certain direction. However, this is a case of someone doing that to sway opinion in the other direction. If you don't like one, you should not like both, regardless of if you don't like Leafs fans. :dunno:

OP: Here is a set of cherry picked data from the last 4 years. Who is better?
Me: Here is the full data from the last 4 years.
You: Why are Leafs fans always trying to mislead me??

Point is, you had no problem with the stats from a few years ago, until it appeared to be in Marner's favour.
 
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Plural

Registered User
Mar 10, 2011
33,703
4,852
Because they are clearly trying to push posters into voting for Rantanen. That is why they posted playoff stats but not any regular season ones (which are a huge set of data to conveniently leave out).

Rantanen 281GP 91G 151A 250P 0.89PPG
Marner 300GP 83G 208A 291P 0.97PPG

These stats are with Marner averaging about 45 seconds less TOI/GP, and full minute less of PPTOI/GP.

I tend to agree with your point on the OP pushing the voting. But there's a bit of context needed in the numbers. Rantanen played 9 games back in 15-16 season when Marner did not even though they're from the same draft. I think it's fair to at the very least put emphasis on those 9 games. Removing them puts Rantanen's PPG to 0.92. Which is Still behind Marner's but it's quite a lot closer.

If we look at their last 3 regular seasons in a row, we get stat lines of:

Rantanen: 197GP 79G 133A 212P 1.08PPG
Marner: 223GP 64G 166A 230P 1.03PPG

Now, I'm not saying using their entire career totals in this comparison is inherently flawed, but I do think that comparing 2-3 previous seasons for such young players does give out a bit more accurate representation of them as players.

Note: I'm fine either way, I just thought your point merited a counter point.
 

Nizdizzle

Offseason Is The Worst Season
Jul 7, 2007
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I tend to agree with your point on the OP pushing the voting. But there's a bit of context needed in the numbers. Rantanen played 9 games back in 15-16 season when Marner did not even though they're from the same draft. I think it's fair to at the very least put emphasis on those 9 games. Removing them puts Rantanen's PPG to 0.92. Which is Still behind Marner's but it's quite a lot closer.

If we look at their last 3 regular seasons in a row, we get stat lines of:

Rantanen: 197GP 79G 133A 212P 1.08PPG
Marner: 223GP 64G 166A 230P 1.03PPG

Now, I'm not saying using their entire career totals in this comparison is inherently flawed, but I do think that comparing 2-3 previous seasons for such young players does give out a bit more accurate representation of them as players.

Note: I'm fine either way, I just thought your point merited a counter point.
It is flawed. I'm not actually advocating that stats from a few years ago are valid now. Just pointing out the OP intentionally left them out for a reason, that they make Marner look better in comparison.

I personally don't put much weight into seasons more than 2 years ago, and I put less emphasis on playoff performance than most people because there are so many variables that can make a player do well/poorly.
 

Halla

Registered User
Jan 28, 2016
14,727
3,779
Marner is better in just about every metric but typical hfboards with the recency bias (rantanen riding shotgun to mac this playoffs)
and rantanen getsa 2/3 the vote? lol

marner has a 93pt pace this year. Rantanen was 80 despite playing alongside a top 3 guy. marner, by a lot
 
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WetcoastOrca

Registered User
Jun 3, 2011
38,142
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Vancouver, BC
Marner is better in just about every metric but typical hfboards with the recency bias (rantanen riding shotgun to mac this playoffs)
and rantanen getsa 2/3 the vote? lol

marner has a 93pt pace this year. Rantanen was 80 despite playing alongside a top 3 guy. marner, by a lot
Whenever I read the words ‘recency bias’ on here I know that someone is grasping at straws. Then to top it off with linemates argument when Marner also rides shotgun with other great players just adds to the grasping.
It’s neither player ‘by a lot’. It’s about as close as it gets. I prefer Rantanen slightly because he’s a better goal scorer and performs better in the playoffs so far but both are close.
 
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John Mandalorian

2022 Avs: The First Dance
Nov 29, 2018
10,647
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Marner is better in just about every metric but typical hfboards with the recency bias (rantanen riding shotgun to mac this playoffs)
and rantanen getsa 2/3 the vote? lol

marner has a 93pt pace this year. Rantanen was 80 despite playing alongside a top 3 guy. marner, by a lot

The West has more defensively focused teams even with some rebuilding.
 

Avaholic29

Registered User
Feb 5, 2014
3,894
3,834
Can we get a 3rd post stating the same thing? Really enjoyed the first two.

21 points in 25 playoff games, yeah that's awful! Don't let logic get in the way of your narrative though.


The narrative is marner vs rant.

playoffs:

Rant - 39 pts in 33 games, 13 goals

marner - 21 pts in 25 games, 5 goals.

the statement that rantanen shows up more remains true.
 
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Dache

Registered User
Feb 12, 2018
5,247
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Marner is better in just about every metric but typical hfboards with the recency bias (rantanen riding shotgun to mac this playoffs)
and rantanen getsa 2/3 the vote? lol

marner has a 93pt pace this year. Rantanen was 80 despite playing alongside a top 3 guy. marner, by a lot
Marner didn’t play with any top guys?
 
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Dache

Registered User
Feb 12, 2018
5,247
2,773
Matthews is awesome and a top 10 player in the league IMO but he definitely isn't on MacKinnon's tier.
That’s fair, but why is it always Drai rides shotgun, Rantanen rides shotgun, Pasta rides shotgun etc. yet Mariner is solely responsible for his points?
 
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AvsCOL

Registered User
Jul 16, 2013
4,840
5,188
Marner by a bit at this point. Rantanen has some consistency issues, but when he's on he's absolutely dominant. A lot of nights he's the Avs' best player, but some nights he doesn't impact the game at all. Think Rantanen has the upside, but it's Marner right now.

If we're taking into account their contracts, then Rantanen is the pick.
 

Dion TheFluff

Registered User
Jun 22, 2015
3,887
3,338
That’s fair, but why is it always Drai rides shotgun, Rantanen rides shotgun, Pasta rides shotgun etc. yet Mariner is solely responsible for his points?
Well I'm one of the Leaf fans that thinks he's overrated (not as bad as it was last year when people were saying he was better than Matthews).

Marner absolutely does benefit from playing with one of either Matthews or Tavares who have both shown to be elite players regardless if they are playing with average to below average wingers but he is still an elite player who is one of the best and creative playmakers in the league when he is on.

IMO its a coin flip between the two players.
 

Dache

Registered User
Feb 12, 2018
5,247
2,773
Well I'm one of the Leaf fans that thinks he's overrated (not as bad as it was last year when people were saying he was better than Matthews).

Marner absolutely does benefit from playing with one of either Matthews or Tavares who have both shown to be elite players regardless if they are playing with average to below average wingers but he is still an elite player who is one of the best and creative playmakers in the league when he is on.

IMO its a coin flip between the two players.
That’s fair and I completely agree. They’re very close and it’ll probably flip back and forth similar to the whole Ehlers, Nylander thing. And you’re right he does benefit, but he’s not carried by anyone. I think the same applies to Rantanen, and just think it’s petty when posters claim a player rides shotgun in order to drag that player down so theirs looks better
 
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