Marner or Hischier

[Atomos2]

I am infatuated with facts. Here's a fun one: in 2017-18 Nico Hischier... Age: 18... 19 games, 15 points, -2, 16:09 TOI. In 2016-17, Auston Matthews... Age: 19... 19 games, 13 points, -4, 17:28 TOI.
Matthews? Major talent & superstar from minute 1. Hischier? Meh.
Never change, Toronto fans, never change.

For all we know, he could be meh. 20 games is hardly a legit sample size where we can make any solid assumptions. Hell, 1 season isn't really enough to make a good assumption let alone act cocky about it. And that "major talent superstar" has been doing it for beyond a season so making a snarky comment trying to demean Leaf fans when they're the only ones in this argument using a decent sample size to assess players is facepalm worthy.

However, you are free to make all the assumptions about Hischer and Marner that you want, I won't complain. Just don't spirit away 3/4 of the way through the season like the other guys do if Hischer hits a wall and you end up being wrong about Marner. At least try to stick up for your argument even when things aren't going your way and players aren't playing to the level you expect them to like I'm doing

 

[Garthinater]

Bozak has a more proven NHL record than Dahlin, who would you choose?

I remember lots of fans saying gaudreau > marner because you have to go with the more proven. Is this not a similar situation?

 

[34]

Hishier is last years 1st overall pick, hard to think he will not win this poll. He does have some nice skill to his game but he is still young. Wait until he has a full season under his belt and see.

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

Hishier is last years 1st overall pick, hard to think he will not win this poll. He does have some nice skill to his game but he is still young. Wait until he has a full season under his belt and see.

Not to mention it is his first 20 games on North American ice, hes the only 18 year old in the league over 10 games, and he plays an entire 200ft game while putting up points against top competition on the first line.

 

[BruinLVGA]

Never once said, or even implied that Hischier was "meh". He's a good young player, he's been very impressive thus far. Merely pointing out that you're taking waaay too much from a 19 game sample size, and at the same time completely downplaying Marner's talent, who, conveniently for you, had a rough start to the year.

Don't even pretend that you're approaching this discussion with even an ounce of objectivity.

Simply stating facts, that's all. You interpret them as you like. If you don't like my interpretation, debate it. I bring facts, you bring... well, pretty much nothing.

So, Hischier has been "very impressive", but it's only because Marner had a "rough start" that we're even mentioning the two together. Is that what you are trying to say now? It seems like that's what you are inferring here.

Let's not consider that Marner has played all his life on North American ice (vs Hischier who played on big ice all his life basically) + he is in his second NHL season (vs Hischier in his rookie season) + he is 20 (Hischier's 18) + that he plays on a team that has 30% more goals than Hischier's (ya know... Being on a higher scoring team helps one's chances of producing points, am I right or am I right?) + it doesn't look to me that he is burdened with the amount of defensive tasks Nico is.
Care to dispute the "objectivity" of this?

Shouldn't Marner be blowing Nico out of the water, seeing that dear Mitch is older, has way more NHL experience, is perfectly adapted to playing on small ice and plays on what is the 2nd highest scoring team in the league (only 1 goal behind Tampa for first overall)? If Marner is so much better, why hasn't he separated himself from Hischier substantially? He has all the advantages on paper. Do tell.

 

[BruinLVGA]

For all we know, he could be meh. 20 games is hardly a legit sample size where we can make any solid assumptions. Hell, 1 season isn't really enough to make a good assumption let alone act cocky about it. And that "major talent superstar" has been doing it for beyond a season so making a snarky comment trying to demean Leaf fans when they're the only ones in this argument using a decent sample size to assess players is facepalm worthy.

However, you are free to make all the assumptions about Hischer and Marner that you want, I won't complain. Just don't spirit away 3/4 of the way through the season like the other guys do if Hischer hits a wall and you end up being wrong about Marner. At least try to stick up for your argument even when things aren't going your way and players aren't playing to the level you expect them to like I'm doing

So, by that bolded phrase you mean to say that Matthews, Nylander and Marner could all be "meh" too? They all have a season + a little handful of games... or is precisely 1 season the arbitrary cut off for that?

Last year, from even before the season started (never even mind while it was going on) Matthews was the best thing since sliced bread and there were - and still are - countless threads about him with you guys singing his praise.
This year, Nico has performed even better than him at this point in the season (given all the factors that are worse for him than Matthews, it's even more impressive what he has done so far) and the majority of you fellas can't even fathom that AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME Nico could be better than Marner.

 

[BruinLVGA]

Not to mention it is his first 20 games on North American ice, hes the only 18 year old in the league over 10 games, and he plays an entire 200ft game while putting up points against top competition on the first line.

Seems right to me.

 

[Snippit]

I remember lots of fans saying gaudreau > marner because you have to go with the more proven. Is this not a similar situation?

Are you debating against the same people?

 

[Kelly]

Not to mention it is his first 20 games on North American ice, hes the only 18 year old in the league over 10 games, and he plays an entire 200ft game while putting up points against top competition on the first line.

Hischier played on the Mooseheads last year?

 

[Atomos2]

So, by that bolded phrase you mean to say that Matthews, Nylander and Marner could all be "meh" too? They all have a season + a little handful of games... or is precisely 1 season the arbitrary cut off for that?

Now pointing out that Hischier has indeed had a better start to his rookie season than Matthews had at this point last year = "to demean Leafs fans"?
I am going to repeat it one LAST time for those who are a little slower than average: pointing out the difference between Hischier rookie season's start and Matthews rookie season last year is to show how biased you guys are, on average.
Last year, from even before the season started (never even mind while it was going on) Matthews was the best thing since sliced bread and there were - and still are - countless threads about him with you guys singing his praise.
This year, Nico has performed even better than him at this point in the season (given all the factors that are worse for him than Matthews, it's even more impressive what he has done so far) and the majority of you fellas can't even fathom that AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME Nico could be better than Marner. If being homerish was a disease, you'd be all dead by now.

Lol, says he doesn't demean Leaf fans and then follows it up with "those who are little slower than average" and "If being homerish was a disease, you'd be all dead by now" but yep keep on faking innocence.

Anyway the "little handful of games" are apparently enough for you to accurately judge Hischer. My sample size is coming from 100+ NHL games. Yours is 19. You can't possibly see no difference in that. AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME, Zach Hyman and Connor Brown almost have as many points as Nylander and Marner. The sample size is misleading and your trying to milk it as long as you can. Which is fine if you want. Just don't spirit away in February when we actually get some somewhat realistic results from these players. I'll gladly praise Hischer in February if he doesn't crash like Larkin did his first year. But right now, its just funny seeing you build him up so much.

 

[Nico the Draft Riser]

Hischier played on the Mooseheads last year?

Hm..

Idk why that slipped my mind. Youre right.

Point still stands lol

 

[BruinLVGA]

Lol, says he doesn't demean Leaf fans and then follows it up with "those who are little slower than average" and "If being homerish was a disease, you'd be all dead by now" but yep keep on faking innocence.

Anyway the "little handful of games" are apparently enough for you to accurately judge Hischer. My sample size is coming from 100+ NHL games. Yours is 19. You can't possibly see no difference in that. AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME, Zach Hyman and Connor Brown almost have as many points as Nylander and Marner. The sample size is misleading and your trying to milk it as long as you can. Which is fine if you want. Just don't spirit away in February when we actually get some somewhat realistic results from these players. I'll gladly praise Hischer in February if he doesn't crash like Larkin did his first year. But right now, its just funny seeing you build him up so much.

It's YOU who does equate "those who are a little slower than average" with "Leafs fans", not me. So YOU think that Leafs fans are a little slower, not me. By the way, this feeling of persecution is a little ridiculous if you ask me: snap out of it.

Saying someone is homerish it's not demeaning anyone. It's to say that someone isn't seeing things for what they really are = not being objective. I can't believe that I have to explain this to you. In any case, it's my personal observations that it's an affliction extremely widespread among your fan base. I see maybe 1 Toronto fan in 100 who wants to debate things in a regular way, the other 99 immediately get ticked off & outraged. They only want to hear praise and declaration of superiority for their players or they immediately blow a fuse. It looks like you too are in this group.

Ffs... I have said it over and over.. and over again. Here, one more time then (what is it, the fourth time or so that I repeat the same stuff???).
It is about how biased most of you fellas are (see homerish). Hischier gets a great start in his rookie season, to the tune of: better than Matthews rookie start so far... playing 1C... playing a 200 ft game at very high level... at age 18... with a physique that looks like more of a young teen than a man... with way less experience on small ice than Marner/Matthews... with these two who at the same age were in junior and in Switzerland, respectively.
If you think about it, it's pretty incredible. And yet, it seems that just about nobody of your fan base can fathom that as things stand now, Hischier could be better than Marner currently, who was even demoted for a bunch of games by your own coach. Talk about biased.
Furthermore, like another user pointed out, so far in this thread it's EVERY non Leafs fan saying Hischier, and Toronto fans Marner. That's another clear sign of bias too. Be objective!

 

[Atomos2]

It's YOU who does equate "those who are a little slower than average" with "Leafs fans", not me. So YOU think that Leafs fans are a little slower, not me. By the way, this feeling of persecution is a little ridiculous if you ask me: snap out of it.

Saying someone is homerish it's not demeaning anyone. It's to say that someone isn't seeing things for what they really are = not being objective. I can't believe that I have to explain this to you. In any case, it's my personal observations that it's an affliction extremely widespread among your fan base. I see maybe 1 Toronto fan in 100 who wants to debate things in a regular way, the other 99 immediately get ticked off & outraged. They only want to hear praise and declaration of superiority for their players or they immediately blow a fuse. It looks like you too are in this group.

Ffs... I have said it over and over.. and over again. Here, one more time then (what is it, the fourth time or so that I repeat the same stuff???).
It is about how biased most of you fellas are (see homerish). Hischier gets a great start in his rookie season, to the tune of: better than Matthews rookie start so far... playing 1C... playing a 200 ft game at very high level... at age 18... with a physique that looks like more of a young teen than a man... with way less experience on small ice than Marner/Matthews... with these two who at the same age were in junior and in Switzerland, respectively.
If you think about it, it's pretty incredible. And yet, it seems that just about nobody of your fan base can fathom that as things stand now, Hischier could be better than Marner currently, who was even demoted for a bunch of games by your own coach. Talk about biased.
Furthermore, like another user pointed out, so far in this thread it's EVERY non Leafs fan saying Hischier, and Toronto fans Marner. That's another clear sign of bias too. Be objective!

You realize this "great start" you are mentioning is arbitrary?

Even so, he still currently has a slightly lower ppg than Marner did last year which he did in 58 more games. All we are saying is wait and see and don't cower away in the future if you get proven wrong. Right now, sure the results are going Hischier's way, but we've been over this song and dance already with a bunch of players who had hot starts and hot shot posters decided to match them up against players who succeeded the year before. This could be just another one of those times. You've seen how many threads Leaf fans have bumped since just the start of the season. It's ok to have this stance, just be prepared for the level backlash that could come your way when things don't go Hischier's way.

 

[BruinLVGA]

You realize this "great start" you are mentioning is arbitrary?

Even so, he still currently has a slightly lower ppg than Marner did last year which he did in 58 more games. All we are saying is wait and see and don't cower away in the future if you get proven wrong. Right now, sure the results are going Hischier's way, but we've been over this song and dance already with a bunch of players who had hot starts and hot shot posters decided to match them up against players who succeeded the year before. This could be just another one of those times. You've seen how many threads Leaf fans have bumped since just the start of the season. It's ok to have this stance, just be prepared for the level backlash that could come your way when things don't go Hischier's way.

Arbitrary? Arbitrary in what way? He has performed at 0.79 ppg for a quarter of the season, while at age 18 (where were Marner/Matthews/Nylander at 18? I thought so...) + playing 1C + with an amazing two way game. It's an objective FACT that he has had a great start, not an opinion.

They have the same 0.79ppg, who are you kidding? In any case... sure Hischier could have a worse performance from now on. Or he could have the same performance. Or even better. All bets are open.
However, what this thread is about is Hischier or Marner as we stand. And as we stand, given the performance of both till now and the circumstances surrounding both players (age, experience, position, responsibilities, teams they're playing on), it's Hischier that is the best.

- 15 points in 19 games > 15 points in 21 games
- this performance at 18 > this performance at 20
- this performance as a rookie > this performance as a sophomore
- this performance as a player used to big ice for almost all his life > this performance as a player used to small ice for all his life
- this performance as a 1C > this performance as a winger
- great two way play > offensive winger
- this performance on a team that has 30% less goals than the Leafs > this performance while being on the 2nd highest scoring team.

There you go.

 

[Atomos2]

Arbitrary? Arbitrary in what way? He has performed at 0.79 ppg for a quarter of the season, while at age 18 (where were Marner/Matthews/Nylander at 18? I thought so...) + playing 1C + with an amazing two way game. It's an objective FACT that he has had a great start, not an opinion.

They have the same 0.79ppg, who are you kidding? In any case... sure Hischier could have a worse performance from now on. Or he could have the same performance. Or even better. All bets are open.
However, what this thread is about is Hischier or Marner as we stand. And as we stand, given the performance of both till now and the circumstances surrounding both players (age, experience, position, responsibilities, teams they're playing on), it's Hischier that is the best.

- 15 points in 19 games > 15 points in 21 games
- this performance at 18 > this performance at 20
- this performance as a rookie > this performance as a sophomore
- this performance as a player used to big ice for almost all his life > this performance as a player used to small ice for all his life
- this performance as a 1C > this performance as a winger
- great two way play > offensive winger
- this performance on a team that has 30% less goals than the Leafs > this performance while being on the 2nd highest scoring team.
There you go.

Where were Matthews, Marner and Nylander at 18? Who gives a damn? Where was Gagner at 18? You seem to be of the opinion that the earlier you get into the league, the better you will be. You don't seem to understand that players go through hot streaks and cold streaks all the time. Just because a kid is playing hot right now, doesn't mean much at this stage of his career. You're acting like 19 games is some kind of title he can hold over everyone? I'm more interested in what happens to him after his first cold streak and how he comes out of it. That's when you find out the type of player he is.

You can enjoy the 15 points in 19 games. I'll enjoy the 60+ points in 77 games that got us into the playoffs. Knowing that Marner is actually capable of putting up 60+ in a season for his team is what makes him a better player than Hischier. However, to start this season I will concede that Hischier has the hotter stick for the moment and his on ice performance for this short sample size has been slightly better.

Btw,
- 15 points in 19 games >= 15 points in 21 games (depending on what happens in those 2 extra games - let's try not being bias here with your "facts" 15 points=15 points [you wouldn't want to be mistaken as one of those bias leaf fans ])
- this performance at 18 = this performance at 20 (Being younger doesn't mean your better. Development isn't linear)
- this performance as a rookie = this performance as a sophomore (Hischier is an unknown - You can get away with things you can't as a sophomore and you have a lot more leeway as a rookie too)
- this performance as a player used to big ice for almost all his life = this performance as a player used to small ice for all his life (I watched Hischier play in Halifax. He's fine, he had a year to adjust, give it a rest with the big ice crap)
- this performance on a team that has 30% less goals than the Leafs = this performance while being on the 2nd highest scoring team (All speculation and conjecture. We assumed Kessel would explode offensively when he went to the Pens. It didn't happen. Until you see them switch teams, this argument has very little validity)

 

[BruinLVGA]

Where were Matthews, Marner and Nylander at 18? Who gives a damn? Where was Gagner at 18? You seem to be of the opinion that the earlier you get into the league, the better you will be. You don't seem to understand that players go through hot streaks and cold streaks all the time. Just because a kid is playing hot right now, doesn't mean much at this stage of his career. You're acting like 19 games is some kind of title he can hold over everyone? I'm more interested in what happens to him after his first cold streak and how he comes out of it. That's when you find out the type of player he is.

You can enjoy the 15 points in 19 games. I'll enjoy the 60+ points in 77 games that got us into the playoffs. Knowing that Marner is actually capable of putting up 60+ in a season for his team is what makes him a better player than Hischier. However, to start this season I will concede that Hischier has the hotter stick for the moment and his on ice performance for this short sample size has been slightly better.

Btw,
- 15 points in 19 games >= 15 points in 21 games (depending on what happens in those 2 extra games - let's try not being bias here with your "facts" 15 points=15 points [you wouldn't want to be mistaken as one of those bias leaf fans ])
- this performance at 18 = this performance at 20 (Being younger doesn't mean your better. Development isn't linear)
- this performance as a rookie = this performance as a sophomore (Hischier is an unknown - You can get away with things you can't as a sophomore and you have a lot more leeway as a rookie too)
- this performance as a player used to big ice for almost all his life = this performance as a player used to small ice for all his life (I watched Hischier play in Halifax. He's fine, he had a year to adjust, give it a rest with the big ice crap)
- this performance on a team that has 30% less goals than the Leafs = this performance while being on the 2nd highest scoring team (All speculation and conjecture. We assumed Kessel would explode offensively when he went to the Pens. It didn't happen. Until you see them switch teams, this argument has very little validity)

Right. OK. I won't keep on repeating the same things over and over. You can go back and re-read everything on your own time. Maybe that will help.

You conceded that Hischier this season has had a better performance than Marner so far. Great. The rest of your post is just noise and deserves to be tuned out.

One thing though: if you don't understand how someone being at 0.79 ppg at age 18 is much more impressive than someone doing the same thing at age 19 or 20, I don't know what to say to you.
Have a great day.

 

[Atomos2]

Right. OK. I won't keep on repeating the same things over and over. You can go back and re-read everything on your own time. Maybe that will help.

You conceded that Hischier this season has had a better performance than Marner so far. Great. The rest of your post is just noise and deserves to be tuned out.

One thing though: if you don't understand how someone being at 0.79 ppg at age 18 is much more impressive than someone doing the same thing at age 19 or 20, I don't know what to say to you.
Have a great day.

For an entire season? For sure. For 19 games? ...have a nice day lol

 

[Scorcho]

very interesting sample size.
After the first 23 games (used because it's easier to math the nhl.com monthly splits)? 59gp: 30g, 21a, 51pts.

Talk to me when Hischier can finish the season with 40g and 69pts or even close to that

no because nico has only played that many games...

Marner's 17-year-old season vs Hischier's was also significantly better. When age and league adjusted (while factoring in WJC and Playoffs at effective rates, but not U-18's or Hlinka), Marner had the 4th most productive draft season since 2005, behind only McDavid, Kane, and Crosby.

but why take out hlinka and U-18???

 

[93LEAFS]

no because nico has only played that many games...


but why take out hlinka and U-18???

You do realize that would favor Marner right? I took it out because I took the model from Iain Fyfe of Hockey Abstract, which doesn't account for these things.

Marner
Hlinka 2014-15: 7 points in 5 games

Hischier
2016/17 Hlinka: 2 point points in 3 games
2016/17 U-18: 6 points in 5 games

So yes, I absolutely did what you are inferring, I tried to skew the numbers to favor Marner.......

 

[Scorcho]

You do realize that would favor Marner right? I took it out because I took the model from Iain Fyfe of Hockey Abstract, which doesn't account for these things.

Marner
Hlinka 2014-15: 7 points in 5 games

Hischier
2016/17 Hlinka: 2 point points in 3 games
2016/17 U-18: 6 points in 5 games

So yes, I absolutely did what you are inferring, I tried to skew the numbers to favor Marner.......

note the sarcasm

 

[Scorcho]

marner's good, nico's better,i'm gay, stats are bullshit if you know how easy it is to manipulate them, et cetera, et cetera

 

[HarrisonFord]

no because nico has only played that many games...


but why take out hlinka and U-18???

Sure, and Matthews has played a full season. You understand that it's much more difficult to perform at that level for a full season than 19 games right? Like Victor Rask last year who had 17pts in his first 22gp. Then he finished with 45pts. So maybe just relax until he's played a full season rather than a small sample size.

 

[Scorcho]

funny how a thread about nico and marner turned into a thread about nico and matthews...

I guess everyone realized that comparing nico to matthews was more appropriate than nico and marner

 

[Snippit]

I'm convinced some of you don't even bother watching Hischier.

It's just that it's not often you see undersized 18 year olds walk into the NHL and take over as 1C and look as comfortable as he does out there.

The stigma of the 2017 draft will prevent people from giving Nico the respect he deserves for a while but I think he's going to be a top 5-10 centre when it's all said and done.

 

[McDavidCrushedLarkin]

Hischier for sure, he's the real deal.