Salary Cap: Marner contract discussion XVIII (continued)

[Throw More Waffles]

What the article calls RCAs are just deferral corporations. This is the common program which has been around for years. The issue with it is how the deferral corp is setup and/or acquired. What it tries to do is move bonuses into non-retrieval tax deferred entities which are released when player finishes his career by turning income into dividends over a certain number of years when the player has no further hockey income depending on the CRA tax rulings on each transaction. Teams do not do this. Teams, like companies, shy away from giving tax advice to an employee for risk of being sued by the employee if there are mistakes made. And players have to think twice before getting involved in them too because they lose access to those deferred funds.

So far I have one verified tax expert saying that players in Tampa have no real tax advantage over players in Toronto.

Do you know of other tax experts weighing in on this? I would genuinely like to hear more. And if not, I'm not going to weigh a random internet poster equally with a verfied tax expert.

 

[Bigmarycombo]

You... uh... don't think a centre with Tavares's finish (who scored 47 goals)... uh... helped pile on assists for Marner?

I don't even know what to say at this point.

This place has gone completely nuts.

Well he finally has someone with a high hockey iq playing with him and has some hands to finish his. Great passes.

If you watched him with jvr and bozak he set them up for tap ins and they couldn’t finish a lot of his passes.

I believe marner and Tavares both have better years this year as they both can get used to each other

 

[JT AM da real deal]

So far I have one verified tax expert saying that players in Tampa have no real tax advantage over players in Toronto.

Do you know of other tax experts weighing in on this? I would genuinely like to hear more. And if not, I'm not going to weigh a random internet poster equally with a verfied tax expert.

You can't just say players in your generic sense it means nothing. Every single player is different. For instance JT has far more funds and can afford to buy a better tax loss Ontario corporation than say a Trevor Moore can afford. The guy at KPMG that we work with knows the stuff intimately. and driving into the detail is next to impossible to understand. Even a guy who passed his UFE like me gets a migraine understanding it. You just dish out the coin and hope you don't get audited. I did it for one of my kids but only to get back most of his Canadian withholding taxes. So he bought a tax loss company in Florida which owns a few rental properties.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

You can't just say players in your generic sense it means nothing. Every single player is different. For instance JT has far more funds and can afford to buy a better tax loss Ontario corporation than say a Trevor Moore can afford. The guy at KPMG that we work with knows the stuff intimately. and driving into the detail is next to impossible to understand. Even a guy who passed his UFE like me gets a migraine understanding it. You just dish out the coin and hope you don't get audited. I did it for one of my kids but only to get back most of his Canadian withholding taxes. So he bought a tax loss company in Florida which owns a few rental properties.

I don’t care how it affects players like Trevor Moore, because those guys make near league minimum and aren’t taking Dubas to the cleaners.

I’m talking about the big contracts. People say Tampa gets their super stars at lower aav’s due to tax advantages. Well, I’ve only ever heard ONE tax expert weigh in on that, and he denied such advantages exist.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I don’t care how it affects players like Trevor Moore, because those guys make near league minimum and aren’t taking Dubas to the cleaners.

I’m talking about the big contracts. People say Tampa gets their super stars at lower aav’s due to tax advantages. Well, I’ve only ever heard ONE tax expert weigh in on that, and he denied such advantages exist.

Well assuming you have ZERO tax planning shelters then you will pay NO state income tax for all 41 games played in Tampa whereas if you would play same 41 games in Toronto you would pay 13% provincial tax. Once you start getting into tax planning then all bets are off because there are so many factors that go into it it is mind blowing. Like Isaid even accountants send their clients to these few people who truly understand it. They work with CRA people on files all the time so they are better equipped to know what works best. and there are the Uber aggressive filers like Trump who is under audit all the time.

 

[Menzinger]

Beyond absurd to think they will just fill the roster and let him sit.
Really makes no sense at all.

Id agree with this.

They'd find a compromise (even at just a 1 year deal) at the last minute BUT that's no guarantee such a move keeps him here long term.

It would be better for the Leafs from a pure asset management POV to sign him even at an inflated contract and then simply trade him the next offseason if Dubas/Shanny feel bridge between player and team is burned for good. Having him miss a season is lose lose for both sides.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Well assuming you have ZERO tax planning shelters then you will pay NO state income tax for all 41 games played in Tampa whereas if you would play same 41 games in Toronto you would pay 13% provincial tax. Once you start getting into tax planning then all bets are off because there are so many factors that go into it it is mind blowing. Like Isaid even accountants send their clients to these few people who truly understand it. They work with CRA people on files all the time so they are better equipped to know what works best. and there are the Uber aggressive filers like Trump who is under audit all the time.

I've only ever heard from one of these experts that fully understands it. He said that there is no tax advantage for playing in Tampa over playing in Toronto. So far, I've only ever heard from ONE of these tax experts weigh in.

Sure, forming my entire opinion based on one guy isn't ideal. Which is why I'm asking, do you have any other tax experts to counter him with?

If a surgeon said I required surgery, I would take his word over 1 billion random posters on the internet. Sure, I'd love a 2nd or 3rd opinion from other surgeons. Which is why I'm asking if you can link me to other tax experts that have weighed in on the subject. Otherwise, I'm going to take the 1 tax experts word for it.

 

[Bigmarycombo]

They should trade marner right now. This hold out is beyond comprehension.

 

[Gary Nylund]

They should trade marner right now. This hold out is beyond comprehension.

Should the other RFA's who are star players be traded too? Or just Marner?

 

[Throw More Waffles]

They should trade marner right now. This hold out is beyond comprehension.

Every other big rfa (other than Aho and Vasilevsky) are also unsigned.

And nobody would trade for Marner. Why would they give up a crap ton of assets, just to have Marner hold out into the season, and possibly get offersheated?

 

[Peiskos]

This is what I hate most about professional sports, when you sit down and analyze everything you come to a simple conclusion, these are young guys getting paid millions to play a game. When you get into a certain level of money it all becomes irrelevant. To an average person making $50,000 a year vs $100,000 is a HUGE difference and a HUGE difference in the quality of life you can have.

But when you're making $9,000,000 vs $12,000,000??? the difference is negligible and meaningless. The greed of players today is unprecedented, I understand everyone deserves to get paid but when you nickel and dime over a few million when you're already a loaded multi-millionaire it leaves a bad taste in my egalitarian mind.

I love professional sport but good god there are times when I am absolutely disgusted with the greed of the players.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

This is what I hate most about professional sports, when you sit down and analyze everything you come to a simple conclusion, these are young guys getting paid millions to play a game. When you get into a certain level of money it all becomes irrelevant. To an average person making $50,000 a year vs $100,000 is a HUGE difference and a HUGE difference in the quality of life you can have.

But when you're making $9,000,000 vs $12,000,000??? the difference is negligible and meaningless. The greed of players today is unprecedented, I understand everyone deserves to get paid but when you nickel and dime over a few million when you're already a loaded multi-millionaire it leaves a bad taste in my egalitarian mind.

I love professional sport but good god there are times when I am absolutely disgusted with the greed of the players.

I fully agree.

People like Marner and Matthews fight for every single solitary last penny, and it won't affect their lifestyle in the slightest. The extra money they're getting is coming from their poorer teammates pockets. Teammates that take a paycut that does affect their lifestyle.

It's absolutely bonkers that society just turns a blind eye.

 

[54thecup]

I've only ever heard from one of these experts that fully understands it. He said that there is no tax advantage for playing in Tampa over playing in Toronto. So far, I've only ever heard from ONE of these tax experts weigh in.

Sure, forming my entire opinion based on one guy isn't ideal. Which is why I'm asking, do you have any other tax experts to counter him with?


If a surgeon said I required surgery, I would take his word over 1 billion random posters on the internet. Sure, I'd love a 2nd or 3rd opinion from other surgeons. Which is why I'm asking if you can link me to other tax experts that have weighed in on the subject. Otherwise, I'm going to take the 1 tax experts word for it.

There was a pretty good article on the Athletic on the net income per province and state. Quebec was the worst, we were close and Cali / NY have high taxes as well.

I relented that they know more than me and their data was correct.

If I recall correctly it showed a ~15% variance in net income from best to worst.... not good news for us.

 

[Bigmarycombo]

Should the other RFA's who are star players be traded too? Or just Marner?

Well I figured from all the hate on here for him he must be holding out. It’s hard to believe he can sign in the next two months and He is just following the rules from a CBA that the owners themselves signed as acceptable

 

[Throw More Waffles]

There was a pretty good article on the Athletic on the net income per province and state. Quebec was the worst, we were close and Cali / NY have high taxes as well.

I relented that they know more than me and their data was correct.

If I recall correctly it showed a ~15% variance in net income from best to worst.... not good news for us.

Is that before or after tax experts got involved?

Again, as of right now, I've only read ONE tax expert weigh in.

If you know any other, I'd love to read it.

 

[Clark4Ever]

This is what I hate most about professional sports, when you sit down and analyze everything you come to a simple conclusion, these are young guys getting paid millions to play a game. When you get into a certain level of money it all becomes irrelevant. To an average person making $50,000 a year vs $100,000 is a HUGE difference and a HUGE difference in the quality of life you can have.

But when you're making $9,000,000 vs $12,000,000??? the difference is negligible and meaningless. The greed of players today is unprecedented, I understand everyone deserves to get paid but when you nickel and dime over a few million when you're already a loaded multi-millionaire it leaves a bad taste in my egalitarian mind.

I love professional sport but good god there are times when I am absolutely disgusted with the greed of the players.

It's even more nauseating when it involves a hometown kid who grew up a Leaf fan.

The real kicker is that no one is expecting him to take a hometown discount. Just accept a fair market deal based on comparables FFS.

 

[Peiskos]

It's even more nauseating when it involves a hometown kid who grew up a Leaf fan.

The real kicker is that no one is expecting him to take a hometown discount. Just accept a fair market deal based on comparables FFS.

I like to think I'm different, that if it were me in Marner's shoes, growing up a Torontonian and a Leafs fan that a few million here and there wouldn't be an issue. I'd gladly sign a $9,000,000 per contract over a $12,000,000 one, especially if I knew signing for cheaper would give a higher chance at bringing a cup to Toronto and becoming a god in this city, at the end of the day an extra 3 million isn't going to make my life any more luxurious than my $9,000,000 salary. I will never understand I guess.

 

[weems]

I think we're learning that this generation of players isnt going to act like ones from the past.

The idea of taking less money than your worth on the open market just to help out the team? Back in the day many players would have sacrificed but not so much for the superstar youth entering the league.

Marner and his team have always had to overcome naysayers and thus most likely developed a massive chip on their shoulder.

They truly believe that Marner is as good as Matthews and will use raw points, games played, PK as arguments to why hes even possibly better .

I'm not really that suprised that its all played out like this.

 

[IPS]

I like to think I'm different, that if it were me in Marner's shoes, growing up a Torontonian and a Leafs fan that a few million here and there wouldn't be an issue. I'd gladly sign a $9,000,000 per contract over a $12,000,000 one, especially if I knew signing for cheaper would give a higher chance at bringing a cup to Toronto and becoming a god in this city, at the end of the day an extra 3 million isn't going to make my life any more luxurious than my $9,000,000 salary. I will never understand I guess.

I've reiterated this several times but it's mostly an ego thing that causes players to demand so much $$$.

Like it or not, dollars in most cases directly reflect on a player's abilities. If Marner takes a lesser contract than Matthews, it's a reflection that he's an inferior player. In his head, he doesn't want to believe that. Professional athletes have crazy egos.

 

[Gabriel426]

The factor that people often overlooked is the nationality of the players.
For example, if they are Canadians and declare non-residency, they don’t need to get tax by Canada but rather only their place of residency.

 

[Gabriel426]

I think we're learning that this generation of players isnt going to act like ones from the past.

The idea of taking less money than your worth on the open market just to help out the team? Back in the day many players would have sacrificed but not so much for the superstar youth entering the league.

Marner and his team have always had to overcome naysayers and thus most likely developed a massive chip on their shoulder.

They truly believe that Marner is as good as Matthews and will use raw points, games played, PK as arguments to why hes even possibly better .

I'm not really that suprised that its all played out like this.

That disrespect thing is overblown only by his Dad. Marner was always talented and just didn’t come from no where. If his draft didn’t have a McDavid or McDavid is not Canadian, Strome and him will be praise as the one-two punch and another Taylor Vs Tyler thing during their draft year.
If he really feels small, just ask for a trade to a team where he will be the only SuperStar.

 

[Optimist]

To put this kind of money into perspective, let me offer this. I am one of 550 people that will be laid of in November from Thunder Bays Bombardier plant. These people probably make an average of 50k per year. Many are young and have mortgages, vehicle loans, and children. It's devastating for the community. I'm one of the very few lucky ones as I was employed there post retirement and have 3 other pensions coming in monthly. 9? 10? 11 million per year is worth fighting to the death over? The CEO of Bombardier makes that kind of money and he has to oversee a huge multinational company with 70,000 employees. Mitch can skate and pass the puck.

 

[Eternal Leaf]

To put this kind of money into perspective, let me offer this. I am one of 550 people that will be laid of in November from Thunder Bays Bombardier plant. These people probably make an average of 50k per year. Many are young and have mortgages, vehicle loans, and children. It's devastating for the community. I'm one of the very few lucky ones as I was employed there post retirement and have 3 other pensions coming in monthly. 9? 10? 11 million per year is worth fighting to the death over? The CEO of Bombardier makes that kind of money and he has to oversee a huge multinational company with 70,000 employees. Mitch can skate and pass the puck.

To be fair, the average employee is comparable to a minor leaguer or below. Those players struggle just as much while getting tossed around.

Marner is among the best at what he does and entering his working prime. He's the CEO in hockey terms.

Top-tier athletes get paid way more than necessary (of course) but they're also the very best at what they do. Unfortunately, their salaries are thrown in everyone's face compared to the world's finest CEOs, surgeons, lawyers, accountants, and other high-end professionals. Most of these people rake in big money doing what they're good at. However, it's kept completely out of the public eye.

 

[ULF_55]

To be fair, the average employee is comparable to a minor leaguer or below. Those players struggle just as much while getting tossed around.

Marner is among the best at what he does and entering his working prime. He's the CEO in hockey terms.

Top-tier athletes get paid way more than necessary (of course) but they're also the very best at what they do. Unfortunately, their salaries are thrown in everyone's face compared to the world's finest CEOs, surgeons, lawyers, accountants, and other high-end professionals. Most of these people rake in big money doing what they're good at. However, it's kept completely out of the public eye.

Certainly, they are overpaid, but so are most top entertainers.

Medical doctor salary - Average salary

Supply and demand along with gullible public who'll pay stupid money to watch them play.

 

[scotian1]

My Lord