Prospect Info: Marlies/Prospects Thread - The AHL is up and prospects are in play

[Cor]

There are some prospects who have value but won't have futures with us unless they take major leaps (Hollowell should have been moved at this TDL for example).

Moving down from a late 2nd won't get us much anyways. I think we will supplant our pool a little bit by moving Engvall for a 3rd round pick type return and Malgin can probably get a 4th or 5th rounder himself (he just had 2 points in Lausanne's first playoff game and was almost a PPG in the NLA this year), but last year was pretty thin after the 4th round (even though we got Miettinen). This year, there is an opportunity for major steals and some quality players at positions we need (center and goalie). Not really sure about 2022's depth yet but at least we have our 1st and 2nd from that draft (although who knows for how long) and it looks like it can be the best of 2020 and 2021 in one draft without any high end goalies.

Leafs will definitely have players to flip for picks.

Malgin makes sense. Engvall/Kerfoot might make sense. I still think Kerfoot is taken by Seattle, and we'll probably want to keep Engvall around, but if Seattle takes Dermott, then yeah, one of them can go for a pick. If Kerfoot is taken by Seattle, than Dermott could be traded. Then MAYBE Petan, if someone wants his rights, but doubtful.

 

[Twine Tickler]

maybe someone can fill me in a bit here when it comes to the Marlies. When I watch the games, Moore runs guys like Petan, Dusak, Agistino, kosilla, rosen..etc as if they are our top dogs. For example, gives them PP1 and first line first pairing opportunities. Whereas you watch the games against Laval and it seemed like CC was playing as much as anyone, and given every opportunity to play big minutes. I'm pretty sure Lilly is PP2 on the Marlies, which is mind numbing. I guess what I am trying to get at is what is the point of overdeveloping guys like Petan, Dusak, Agistino, kosilla, rosen in roles that they will never play in the NHL? May as well play Petan in a complimentary role, as he will be a complimentary player if he ever cements himself in the show. Further, may as well play Robby like a mule as that's the type of scenarios we'd expect to see from him at the NHL level.

I don't understand how Moore is coaching this team. More so, I don't understand how the organization allows him to coach that way. It's supposed to be a feeder team for the Leafs. It should not be about results, it should be all about development

 

[stickty111]

Not good

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Not good

Oh no.

 

[stickty111]

Man what a disaster 2 drafts by Hunter. 0 points in 26 games. I get offense isn't his game but how do you not get even a lucky assist?

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Holmberg has been tearing it up offensively in the SHL playoffs

 

[hullsy47]

Man what a disaster 2 drafts by Hunter. 0 points in 26 games. I get offense isn't his game but how do you not get even a lucky assist?

Seems this kid went south went he left the OHL

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Man what a disaster 2 drafts by Hunter. 0 points in 26 games. I get offense isn't his game but how do you not get even a lucky assist?

Always beating me to the punch. I was going to post this with a cheeky comment about how people that so called “draft guru” to be our GM. Woof.

 

[stickty111]

Always beating me to the punch. I was going to post this with a cheeky comment about ho people that so called “draft guru” to be our GM. Woof.

Not my fault I'm faster

 

[Bloomberg]

Seems this kid went south went he left the OHL

I really liked the Rasanen pick when it happened. It was a high risk/high reward pick. The fact he got no points is probably just unlucky or very limited ice time. I'm disappointed the Leafs didn't bring him to the AHL to properly develop him. I think it might be that he was a hunter pick and Dubas just doesn't like him.

2018 picks Kral, Hollowell, SDA, Sandin are all now with the Marlies, and yet our 2017 2nd rounder isn't.

 

[stickty111]

Kral, Hollowell, SDA and Sandin have progressed a lot more then Rasanen.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I really liked the Rasanen pick when it happened. It was a high risk/high reward pick. The fact he got no points is probably just unlucky or very limited ice time. I'm disappointed the Leafs didn't bring him to the AHL to properly develop him. I think it might be that he was a hunter pick and Dubas just doesn't like him.

2018 picks Kral, Hollowell, SDA, Sandin are all now with the Marlies, and yet our 2017 2nd rounder isn't.

Rasanen left North America because he was homesick, nothing to do with Dubas sabotaging the prospect pipeline to spite some OHL GM.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Seems this kid went south went he left the OHL

The OHL was masking his lack of hockey IQ. The pro level did not. Those two years in the KHL were an opportunity to really work on developing his skills and learn, just like Holl learned and developed his defensive game in 2018-2019 despite only playing 11 games that year, but he did not. Well his tools somewhat improved. I saw a game or two when he was in the Liiga and his skating looked better than it was in the OHL. He just does not understand defensive coverage, what angles to take, or how to use his body. In the OHL it was easier because he was a 6'7" mammoth against a bunch of 16-20 year olds and most of them were not fast or skilled enough to burn him (or get around his massive reach), and he wasn't going to lose any physical competitions. All of the things that made him effective went out the window as soon as he reached a proper level of competition... And he is not even in the most physical leagues in the world.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Kral, Hollowell, SDA and Sandin have progressed a lot more then Rasanen.

Hollowell hasn't really progressed since he left the OHL. His defensive game is just as brutal as it was in the 2019 AHL playoffs. He's an offensive defenseman who has 5 points in 21 games. That's why I wanted to move him if at all possible, but it doesn't shock me that nobody wanted him. The Leafs could legitimately non-tender him after next year unless he drastically improves in one offseason, but he had a lot of time to get bigger, stronger, and work on his skills in the past year and yet it looks like he has done nothing to improve in almost 2 years. He is in the same kind of tier and has the same sort of play style as Hoefenmayer and McCourt right now and neither are close to earning ELC's at this point.

 

[Bloomberg]

Rasanen left North America because he was homesick, nothing to do with Dubas sabotaging the prospect pipeline to spite some OHL GM.

Rasanen left North America in for the 2018-2019 season. Got very little playing time, then played for the Marlies for 5 games. 2019-2020 all in Europe and 2020-2021 all in Europe. It would've make sense if he came to the Marlies for the 2019-2020 season, unless he's still homesick. But given that he played for the Marlies for 5 games in 2018-2019, I doubt that? I wonder if the Leafs will bring Rasanen to the AHL now that his season is done... there's not much talk though...

 

[Twine Tickler]

It is kind of funny how people are critical of Dubas for only drafting "smurfs". Yet we draft an ogre, a player that most were pleased with the selection at the time, and has done nothing since draft day but depreciate lol. Don't hear many people complaining about Miettenen, Ovchinikov, Abruzesse, Niemela, Koster, and Robertson's developments. All under 6 feet and killing it. I'll take Dubas' approach any day of the week.

Draft skill, acquire size and toughness.

For the record I did like the Rasanen pick at the time. This isn't a slam bit on the previous managment for drafting him. But more of a kudos to KD and Co for shifting drafting philosophies

 

[Twine Tickler]

Another example of why draft skill over size is Fedor Gordeev. 6'6, drafted in the 5th. Always was a long shot, but realistically never had the skillset to play in the show. It was a hope and a prayer pick. You can teach skilled players to play tougher, you cannot teach tougher players to play skilled. Not that Gordeev was tough, but you get the point I am trying to make.

Skill > Size

 

[Bloomberg]

It is kind of funny how people are critical of Dubas for only drafting "smurfs". Yet we draft an ogre, a player that most were pleased with the selection at the time, and has done nothing since draft day but depreciate lol. Don't hear many people complaining about Miettenen, Ovchinikov, Abruzesse, Niemela, Koster, and Robertson's developments. All under 6 feet and killing it. I'll take Dubas' approach any day of the week.

Draft skill, acquire size and toughness.

For the record I did like the Rasanen pick at the time. This isn't a slam bit on the previous managment for drafting him. But more of a kudos to KD and Co for shifting drafting philosophies

Players with both size and skill will go high in the draft. Later in the draft, bigger players are higher risk and they don't always work out, but if they do and you get a really good player. We just gave up a 1st and 2 4th to get Foligno (toughness), so it's not cheap. The draft for skill, trade for size argument works if you can trade the "skill" you drafted for "toughness", but that haven't happened. I rather draft the best player available taking into consideration all attributes like toughness, defensive awareness, passing, shooting, hockey IQ, skating etc. Right now, it just seems hockey IQ outweigh the other attributes way too much and they reject any player with size. It's like they give up on player development.

 

[stickty111]

Hollowell hasn't really progressed since he left the OHL. His defensive game is just as brutal as it was in the 2019 AHL playoffs. He's an offensive defenseman who has 5 points in 21 games. That's why I wanted to move him if at all possible, but it doesn't shock me that nobody wanted him. The Leafs could legitimately non-tender him after next year unless he drastically improves in one offseason, but he had a lot of time to get bigger, stronger, and work on his skills in the past year and yet it looks like he has done nothing to improve in almost 2 years. He is in the same kind of tier and has the same sort of play style as Hoefenmayer and McCourt right now and neither are close to earning ELC's at this point.

Fair points but Hollowell atleast dominated in the OHL albiet overager. Rasanen didn't come close to doing that.

 

[stickty111]

It is kind of funny how people are critical of Dubas for only drafting "smurfs". Yet we draft an ogre, a player that most were pleased with the selection at the time, and has done nothing since draft day but depreciate lol. Don't hear many people complaining about Miettenen, Ovchinikov, Abruzesse, Niemela, Koster, and Robertson's developments. All under 6 feet and killing it. I'll take Dubas' approach any day of the week.

Draft skill, acquire size and toughness.

For the record I did like the Rasanen pick at the time. This isn't a slam bit on the previous managment for drafting him. But more of a kudos to KD and Co for shifting drafting philosophies

Yup it's the correct play. Hockey IQ should be the main attribute that we look for and thats what we are doing. I know I rather have a 5 foot 10 player over a 6.3 player who can't think the game.

 

[stickty111]

Rasanen left North America because he was homesick, nothing to do with Dubas sabotaging the prospect pipeline to spite some OHL GM.

Rasanen even said he was home sick. What he showed was his IQ was lacking in the KHL and then in Liga.

 

[Twine Tickler]

Players with both size and skill will go high in the draft. Later in the draft, bigger players are higher risk and they don't always work out, but if they do and you get a really good player. We just gave up a 1st and 2 4th to get Foligno (toughness), so it's not cheap. The draft for skill, trade for size argument works if you can trade the "skill" you drafted for "toughness", but that haven't happened. I rather draft the best player available taking into consideration all attributes like toughness, defensive awareness, passing, shooting, hockey IQ, skating etc. Right now, it just seems hockey IQ outweigh the other attributes way too much and they reject any player with size. It's like they give up on player development.

I just think they've not had too many success stories drafting size in late rounds. Hence why they don't do it often anymore. For a player with size to go in later rounds, there are clear deficiencies in that players game. Some just insurmountable. I think with skilled players they tend to think the game at a higher level, and have the ability to process the pace of the game better as a result. The only late round pick that has size that has panned out in recent years has been Engvall. and to be completely fair, he plays like he is 5'6. But the list of bigger players who have not been able to develop is staggering really.

2016 draft
Middleton (6'05), Greenway (6'05), Mattinen (6'05), Egor Korshkov (6'03)

2017 draft
Fedor Gordeev (6'06), Eemeli Rasanen (6'07)

those are 6 picks in 2 drafts that could be really helpful to us right now. Of course drafting skill does not guarantee that they will be in the NHL, but all those players above negatively regressed post draft. Their biggest asset on draft day was their size. Almost no consideration to any other aspect really. I am certainly not opposed to drafting size, I want to be clear on that. It cannot be their most redeeming quality. Because if it is, 99 times out of 100 they will not make the NHL in a meaningful capacity. The Zdeno Chara's of the world are once in a lifetime.

 

[Fogelhund]

I just think they've not had too many success stories drafting size in late rounds. Hence why they don't do it often anymore. For a player with size to go in later rounds, there are clear deficiencies in that players game. Some just insurmountable. I think with skilled players they tend to think the game at a higher level, and have the ability to process the pace of the game better as a result. The only late round pick that has size that has panned out in recent years has been Engvall. and to be completely fair, he plays like he is 5'6. But the list of bigger players who have not been able to develop is staggering really.

2016 draft
Middleton (6'05), Greenway (6'05), Mattinen (6'05), Egor Korshkov (6'03)

2017 draft
Fedor Gordeev (6'06), Eemeli Rasanen (6'07)

those are 6 picks in 2 drafts that could be really helpful to us right now. Of course drafting skill does not guarantee that they will be in the NHL, but all those players above negatively regressed post draft. Their biggest asset on draft day was their size. Almost no consideration to any other aspect really. I am certainly not opposed to drafting size, I want to be clear on that. It cannot be their most redeeming quality. Because if it is, 99 times out of 100 they will not make the NHL in a meaningful capacity. The Zdeno Chara's of the world are once in a lifetime.

Noting, Middleton just played a game for the Avalanche. Not that I think he'll turn into much, but he has played in the NHL now. Korshkov, I think turns into a player.. maybe not great, but still a player.

 

[Kiwi]

Rasanen was never going to make it no matter which path he chose imo

His 4-way mobility was never going to allow him to be successful

 

[Lauro]

Man, we were all so pumped about having draft guru Hunter, but he drafted even worse than his predecessors ...