Player Discussion Mark Stone | "Insanely Controversial" Edition

BrawlFan

Registered User
Apr 17, 2009
2,917
285
just look at his passing, he misses passes to him and makes poor passes to his teamates. The puck bobbling isnt the issue, the decision to chase pucks time and time again that will likely bounce and be difficult to control is the issue. His head has some issue.

Sit him
 

Nac Mac Feegle

wee & free
Jun 10, 2011
34,829
9,252
I'm not sure but I think it seems that Stone has to be feeling well to play well. If something is nagging him he get's thrown off. When he is off he tends to take time to re-center.

Something is up with him imo.. He looks slower than usual and he is not anywhere close to our best forward which has shown he is

Exactly. He's one of those players who needs to be at 100% to play well. Some guys are just like that. Others can still kick butt at 60%.

That's what scares me going forward. It's fine if your #5-6 forward is the type who needs to be healthy to play well.....but it's a disaster waiting to happen when it's your #1-2 forward that's like that. That is precisely why Subban and Montreal targeted him a couple years ago, and why teams in the regular season target him. Bang him up, and you don't have to worry about him for the rest of the game.
 

krapsik

Registered User
Nov 13, 2009
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Estonia
Exactly. He's one of those players who needs to be at 100% to play well. Some guys are just like that. Others can still kick butt at 60%.

That's what scares me going forward. It's fine if your #5-6 forward is the type who needs to be healthy to play well.....but it's a disaster waiting to happen when it's your #1-2 forward that's like that. That is precisely why Subban and Montreal targeted him a couple years ago, and why teams in the regular season target him. Bang him up, and you don't have to worry about him for the rest of the game.

Thats why Dorion have to think hard about who expose and who trade. Id rather keep PO performers, even if in a regular season they have their problems. Ryan, Brassard, Pageau, Stalberg. Obviously Karlsson. You need to build team around players like that. Anderson, Stone, Hoffman, Turris are all very big question marks for me.
 

Nac Mac Feegle

wee & free
Jun 10, 2011
34,829
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Thats why Dorion have to think hard about who expose and who trade. Id rather keep PO performers, even if in a regular season they have their problems. Ryan, Brassard, Pageau, Stalberg. Obviously Karlsson. You need to build team around players like that. Anderson, Stone, Hoffman, Turris are all very big question marks for me.

I just don't know what to do. I love Stone as a player. His takeaway skills and enthusiasm for the game is infectious. But it's starting to feel like he's a marked man around the league. Either Stone needs to find a way to get past whatever is taking his game "off" when he isn't 100%, or we have to lower our expectations/projections for him.
 

jbeck5

Registered User
Jan 26, 2009
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Thats why Dorion have to think hard about who expose and who trade. Id rather keep PO performers, even if in a regular season they have their problems. Ryan, Brassard, Pageau, Stalberg. Obviously Karlsson. You need to build team around players like that. Anderson, Stone, Hoffman, Turris are all very big question marks for me.

Turris is a playoff performer. Why do you have him in the latter group? He's still going 100% and creating stuff. No one is skating with him on the rushes.
 

BrawlFan

Registered User
Apr 17, 2009
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285
I was surprised he played after the Trouba hit at all. That hit looked like the career ending kind, where Marc Savard got hit in Boston. Im pretty sure thats affecting his play. People forget that he essentially is our offence in their zone, our forecheck on his line depends on him outsmarting the other team and getting a takeaway. Without that aspect he's just a slow player. If he loses his smarts he loses his value. To expose him is beyond silly when you think of his offensive production and someone like Dzingels ceiling. The real issue with this team is where is Hoffman.
 

SPF6ty9

Registered User
Feb 22, 2016
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I was surprised he played after the Trouba hit at all. That hit looked like the career ending kind, where Marc Savard got hit in Boston. Im pretty sure thats affecting his play. People forget that he essentially is our offence in their zone, our forecheck on his line depends on him outsmarting the other team and getting a takeaway. Without that aspect he's just a slow player. If he loses his smarts he loses his value. To expose him is beyond silly when you think of his offensive production and someone like Dzingels ceiling. The real issue with this team is where is Hoffman.

Hoffman has always been streaky, that's nothing new and surprising. But Stone is usually a dominant player even when not scoring; I've never seen him play this bad. Can't pass, struggling to control the puck, bad positioning...I hope for his sake he's hurt but it looks like he just doesn't remember how to play hockey. Which is very disappointing because Stone is the player who I've always looked to as a consistent model of good play and have never really criticized over the past 3 years. Just so weird to see him play so bad for such an extended period of time. Durability is going to be a question mark with him.
 

BonkTastic

ಠ_ಠ
Nov 9, 2010
30,901
10,092
Parts Unknown
just look at his passing, he misses passes to him and makes poor passes to his teamates. The puck bobbling isnt the issue, the decision to chase pucks time and time again that will likely bounce and be difficult to control is the issue. His head has some issue.

Sit him

If we're at the point where we're sitting Mark Stone, then we've already lost the series. Pack it in. Better luck next year.

Barring a long-term injury, you don't sit your stars, you let them play through whatever it is that's troubling them. Period. End of story.
 

Engineer

Rustled your jimmies
Dec 23, 2013
6,143
1,892
I don't think there is any debate that he has been a heavy net-negative.

He really needs to find his game, and fast.
 

topshelf15

Registered User
May 5, 2009
27,993
6,005
He isnt the only one ,our forwards are making NY,s blueline not have to work at all :nod:
 

Holdurbreathe

Registered User
Jun 22, 2006
8,550
2
Ontario
I was surprised he played after the Trouba hit at all. That hit looked like the career ending kind, where Marc Savard got hit in Boston. Im pretty sure thats affecting his play. People forget that he essentially is our offence in their zone, our forecheck on his line depends on him outsmarting the other team and getting a takeaway. Without that aspect he's just a slow player. If he loses his smarts he loses his value. To expose him is beyond silly when you think of his offensive production and someone like Dzingels ceiling. The real issue with this team is where is Hoffman.

Trying to shelter Stone's complete lack of anything positive in his play by pointing at Hoffman or any other player is a little rich!!!

IMO Stone isn't injured physically, he just isn't strong enough mentally.

Fact is Stone doesn't seem to be able to put Trouba's hit behind him and his play since he returned has been woeful.

IMO the problems with this team aren't the players, the problems started with Dorion's over the top nonsense about why can't this team win now?

Well most knowledgeable hockey people could have given a long list of why not now.

The list could have started with the idea of having Brassard and Turris as the top two centers, two slow footed wingers in Stone and Ryan, counting on MacArthur to be a key top six player and thinking the D was good enough to be a contender.

Simple fact is had Tampa not suffered all the injuries the Sens would likely have lost the first round to the Lightning.

So while the team squeaked past an AHL defence in Boston, the boat has sprung a leak against the NYR simply because all the holes are being exposed.

Anyone expecting EK to do more than he has been to right this sinking ship are just fooling themselves.

The concept of Methot protecting EK has been exposed for what it is, nonsense. Fact is EK makes Methot look acceptable on the first pairing when he really isn't.

This franchise has shown a lack of patience with its young players and Dorion has taken this to a new level.

So to blame any individual player for what has happened in NY is scapegoating IMO.

This mess lies with Dorion and when the season closes out next Tuesday I fully expect him to say it was a successful year, even though most people will think his team needs a complete overhaul.
 
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Holdurbreathe

Registered User
Jun 22, 2006
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Ontario
If we're at the point where we're sitting Mark Stone, then we've already lost the series. Pack it in. Better luck next year.

Barring a long-term injury, you don't sit your stars, you let them play through whatever it is that's troubling them. Period. End of story.

Not sure I agree with that concept entirely, simply because the coach risks losing the room if a player is not competing while the losses mount and the coach just watches and hopes.

Fact is Stone hasn't played well since his return from the Trouba hit and that now represents something in the neighbourhood of 26 games now.

Long time for a coach to watch and hope.

JMO but Stone isn't going to snap out of his funk against the Rangers, they are just to fast for him to even get into position to make a play and re-gain some confidence.

However it likely doesn't matter what Boucher does, Vigneault has exposed the vaunted system (neutral zone trap) with his team's speed and stretch passes and the one goal games are a story of the past.
 

Burrowsaurus

Registered User
Mar 20, 2013
42,066
15,799
We're not sitting stone. If not for the simple fact that we don't have a better option.

White is not better than any version of stone.
 

NyQuil

Big F$&*in Q
Jan 5, 2005
95,348
59,259
Ottawa, ON
We're not sitting stone. If not for the simple fact that we don't have a better option.

White is not better than any version of stone.

I don't know, I'd argue that he's a liability out there.

When you play a system, it's only as strong as its weakest link.

When he covers the point, there is no way in hell that he can ever get back fast enough and we're talking odd-man rushes and prime scoring attempts against.

I'm still convinced Stone is injured because he's ridiculously slow, even by his standards.
 

dpw

Registered User
Jul 29, 2004
887
146
Trying to shelter Stone's complete lack of anything positive in his play by pointing at Hoffman or any other player is a little rich!!!

IMO Stone isn't injured physically, he just isn't strong enough mentally.

Fact is Stone doesn't seem to be able to put Trouba's hit behind him and his play since he returned has been woeful.

IMO the problems with this team aren't the players, the problems started with Dorion's over the top nonsense about why can't this team win now?

Well most knowledgeable hockey people could have given a long list of why not now.

The list could have started with the idea of having Brassard and Turris as the top two centers, two slow footed wingers in Stone and Ryan, counting on MacArthur to be a key top six player and thinking the D was good enough to be a contender.

Simple fact is had Tampa not suffered all the injuries the Sens would likely have lost the first round to the Lightning.

So while the team squeaked past an AHL defence in Boston, the boat has sprung a leak against the NYR simply because all the holes are being exposed.

Anyone expecting EK to do more than he has been to right this sinking ship are just fooling themselves.

The concept of Methot protecting EK has been exposed for what it is, nonsense. Fact is EK makes Methot look acceptable on the first pairing when he really isn't.

This franchise has shown a lack of patience with its young players and Dorion has taken this to a new level.

So to blame any individual player for what has happened in NY is scapegoating IMO.

This mess lies with Dorion and when the season closes out next Tuesday I fully expect him to say it was a successful year, even though most people will think his team needs a complete overhaul.

:handclap:
 

BrawlFan

Registered User
Apr 17, 2009
2,917
285
I don't know, I'd argue that he's a liability out there.

When you play a system, it's only as strong as its weakest link.

When he covers the point, there is no way in hell that he can ever get back fast enough and we're talking odd-man rushes and prime scoring attempts against.

I'm still convinced Stone is injured because he's ridiculously slow, even by his standards.

that's where I was coming from. He's been the cause of a couple goals and at least 1 per game. If you don't want to sit him you at least reduce his minutes to less risk, like PP time or something. even though he was the cause of one SHG already...

ah what to do...
 

slamigo

Skate or Die!
Dec 25, 2007
6,430
3,811
Ottawa
This is eerily reminiscent of when Turris was injured and they kept playing him night in, night out while he took a ton of flack on the call-in shows and in the media for being a hot sack of garbage. Wasn't fair to the player at all.

Stone at 50-60% isn't a better option than White.
 

Viletho

Registered User
Jan 20, 2015
3,863
1,327
.

This mess lies with Dorion and when the season closes out next Tuesday I fully expect him to say it was a successful year, even though most people will think his team needs a complete overhaul.

So you're saying that we have to trade Karlsson? Because that's what a complete overhaul would meant. You understand that, right?

If you want to rebuild, fine, but you have to trade what could be the best player in your franchise history. Are you ready for that? Because that guy want to win and the reason we don't suck enough is because of him.

Some here are talking about decade of mediocrity. But, are you guys ready to go the Maple Leafs/Edmonton/Buffalo, etc route? There is light for them, finally... But after how many years of real mediocrity? 10 years or so?

If you say you are ready for that, fine, and i respect that. Personally, i don't think i would like that and i think we have anough quality player to stay competitive while I agree that having the luxury of having a real #1 C is needed.
 

Sens of Anarchy

Registered User
Jul 9, 2013
65,007
49,540
Making it to the 2nd round does not make us cup contenders... Nothing that way has changed regardless of the end result of this series ... IMO the team has performed as well as can be expected (generally, not talking about 2 games in NYC)... If you didn't want a major overhaul all year the playoff performance should not have changed that.

The team does not have enough quality players to win it all. So the course is either continue as is improve through the draft maybe make a trade to improve the team or blow it up ... finish in a position to draft near the top of the draft for at least two years while suffering the losing.... As long as we can make the playoffs and win a round possibly 2 that won't happen but the chances of doing more than that won't likely happen either.

IMO most fans were pretty happy with the improvement in results from last year and enjoyed a decent year. I do not think we have the architect to make the moves required to go from here to Stanley Cup contender..We need to hope two or three of our prospects really turn out to be enviable and we need to hope that our picks over the next couple of years turn out really good to change the course.

Dorion's trade choices were to get us where we are. They were not over the moon transactions that will change our course to be contenders and that would be an unrealistic expectation.
 

slamigo

Skate or Die!
Dec 25, 2007
6,430
3,811
Ottawa
I actually think the team is tracking well. Maybe I'm in the minority. But add White, Chabot, Brown, etc and it's looking pretty good. I would also like the team to keep Stalberg.

And injuries heal. Stone will return to form. Unfair to expect it to happen so soon. Sucks, but injuries happen.
 

aragorn

Do The Right Thing
Aug 8, 2004
28,471
8,999
Making it to the 2nd round does not make us cup contenders... Nothing that way has changed regardless of the end result of this series ... IMO the team has performed as well as can be expected (generally, not talking about 2 games in NYC)... If you didn't want a major overhaul all year the playoff performance should not have changed that.

The team does not have enough quality players to win it all. So the course is either continue as is improve through the draft maybe make a trade to improve the team or blow it up ... finish in a position to draft near the top of the draft for at least two years while suffering the losing.... As long as we can make the playoffs and win a round possibly 2 that won't happen but the chances of doing more than that won't likely happen either.

IMO most fans were pretty happy with the improvement in results from last year and enjoyed a decent year. I do not think we have the architect to make the moves required to go from here to Stanley Cup contender..We need to hope two or three of our prospects really turn out to be enviable and we need to hope that our picks over the next couple of years turn out really good to change the course.

Dorion's trade choices were to get us where we are. They were not over the moon transactions that will change our course to be contenders and that would be an unrealistic expectation.

Good post. If at the beginning of the yr we asked whether most fans would take a 2 - 2 tie in the second round, I think most would take it. When we look at this organization & the majority of players here & coming, you are right, they don't have a cup contending team or players unless three or four become legitimate top line players. The problem always comes down to the type of players that they are bringing in & drafting from people's perspectives & everybody has a different take on that. Most people prefer fast skilled players, however, my objection to that is that when it comes to the playoffs those kind of players tend to disappear when the going gets tough & in the playoffs when the refs put the whistles away the going gets tougher every round. Fast, speedy little players are fine in the regular season but in the playoffs you need bigger & tougher players who are hard to play against & play well at both ends.

You have to tip your hat to how the Rangers are built, they don't really have any superstars but have a lot of very good players. Their four forward lines all had very good offensive production all yr long, they are not a one or two line team but a very good deep four line team. They only have one guy under 6' & have size, toughness & skill on every line, they are a very hard team to play against & grind teams down. I don't think they have a single dangler on their team something I read a lot about on here that people like those kinds of players. Unfortunately, those players tend to disappear when the going gets tough in the playoffs & the intensity increases. There defence is quite good too, no real superstar but six very steady good sized tough defencemen who play a very good transition game & then they also have good goaltending.

One of the other disappointments with this franchise has been the big players they have brought in through trades, signed or drafted have turned into big soft players like Robinson, Gagne, Brown & Paul. You could also argue that some of the big players in the lineup today are not as tough as we need them to be in these playoffs.
 

Bileur

Registered User
Jun 15, 2004
18,475
7,194
Ottawa
Best game of the playoffs so far from 61?

Haven't seen him skate or stickhandle like that in weeks.
 

Senscore

Let's keep it cold
Nov 19, 2012
19,862
14,503
It's refreshing to see him as active and energized as he is. Seems like a totally different guy.

And we're gonna need him going if we stand a chance.
 

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