Mark Messier's Leadership

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
It sure would be great if people didn’t focus on everything after someone’s first 1,560 games of professional hockey.

Mark Messier! Why is your team 14-11-6 with Arturs Irbe (.906) but only 6-17-4 with Kirk McLean (.879)?

The world will never know. :sarcasm:
 

mrhockey193195

Registered User
Nov 14, 2006
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Denver, CO
Here's my theory as an admitted Messier admirer. I think one of his strengths as a leader was his willingness to say "come on, follow my lead" and his skill level to back it up on the ice. The ultimate example, of course, was game 6 against New Jersey. That being said, I also think that mentality was his downfall towards the end of his career. He was so used to being able to lead by example and he had such a strong belief in his own abilities that he could not accept the fact that his skills were diminishing. He kept trying to "will" his teams, kept asking for 1C ice time, continued trying to drive play and be the main puck carrier. A lot of that came across as selfish play. It was only in 2003 when he finally, publicly acknowledged that he should get reduced ice time as a 3C.
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
19,110
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Tokyo, Japan
Here's my theory as an admitted Messier admirer. I think one of his strengths as a leader was his willingness to say "come on, follow my lead" and his skill level to back it up on the ice. The ultimate example, of course, was game 6 against New Jersey. That being said, I also think that mentality was his downfall towards the end of his career. He was so used to being able to lead by example and he had such a strong belief in his own abilities that he could not accept the fact that his skills were diminishing. He kept trying to "will" his teams, kept asking for 1C ice time, continued trying to drive play and be the main puck carrier. A lot of that came across as selfish play. It was only in 2003 when he finally, publicly acknowledged that he should get reduced ice time as a 3C.
That's all fair enough. In a way, his late career was victimized by the free-agent-signing era, in that the Canucks and the Rangers (in 2000) way over-paid for a 40-year-old guy. But then, when the franchise pays you huge millions and the second-best center on the club is Dave Scatchard, the club is sending you a clear message that they WANT you to be the top guy.

His return to the Rangers was also muddied by the usual injuries to Eric Lindros, which forced Mess into more ice-time than they'd have wanted to give him. My impression was that he had, as you put it, "finally" adapted to a lesser role in both 2002-03 and 2003-04, but perhaps it was only in that last season (I'm sure you were following them closer than I was). Actually, his stats show him to have been one of the best Rangers those last two seasons, which is pretty good for a 43-year-old.
 
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sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
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Vancouver was obviously not where Messier wanted to go, his first choice. Rangers dumped him after 97 and he took the big money offer in Vancouver land instead. As someone else said, he showed no fire whatsoever in Vancouver. He was old and slow and didn’t even throw cheapshots or play that dirty. Didn’t seem to care. A dinosaur fireless Messier who’s slow and non-dirty, that’s not a good player by any means. He actually appeared as a bad team scorer in Vancouver. Put up decent numbers (especially for his age) but overall just a disaster.
 

The Panther

Registered User
Mar 25, 2014
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Tokyo, Japan
As someone else said, he showed no fire whatsoever in Vancouver. He was old and slow and didn’t even throw cheapshots or play that dirty. Didn’t seem to care. A dinosaur fireless Messier who’s slow and non-dirty, that’s not a good player by any means. He actually appeared as a bad team scorer in Vancouver. Put up decent numbers (especially for his age) but overall just a disaster.
And yet he was named team MVP.
 

CharlestownChiefsESC

Registered User
Sep 17, 2008
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Laurence Harbor NJ
There may be some truth here, but ...er, how do you know this stuff happened?

(By the way, this is the 2nd time this week we've discussed a major star not wanting Shanahan. I'm still wondering what that's all about?)

If you read both the biographies that got published about him he would get really pissed when he didn't get his way after 94. He ran Nedved out of town, ran Ferraro out of town, although the whole team hated Ferraro apparently, and in 97 when he had Vladimoir Vorobiev as his RW in place of an injured Kovalev he did everything in his power to basically say he was overated and management buried Vorobiev as a result.
 
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quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
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Hockeytown, MI
If you read both the biographies that got published about him he would get really pissed when he didn't get his way after 94.

I think anyone who even passively followed the 1992-93 New York Rangers already knew that. Leadership isn’t always passing around the conch; sometimes you have to excise negative elements from the group by hitting Piggy with a rock.

If he didn’t get upset when he disagreed with something, he’s not leading.
 
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CharlestownChiefsESC

Registered User
Sep 17, 2008
1,220
418
Laurence Harbor NJ
I think anyone who even passively followed the 1992-93 New York Rangers already knew that. Leadership isn’t always passing around the conch; sometimes you have to excise negative elements from the group by hitting Piggy with a rock.

If he didn’t get upset when he disagreed with something, he’s not leading.

I get it but it seemed much more pronounced after they won in 94. And what he wanted after that hurt the team.
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
11,845
6,289
I think anyone who even passively followed the 1992-93 New York Rangers already knew that. Leadership isn’t always passing around the conch; sometimes you have to excise negative elements from the group by hitting Piggy with a rock.

If he didn’t get upset when he disagreed with something, he’s not leading.

Wait, are you saying Messier is Jack from Lord of the Flies?

Linden must be Ralph then.
 
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ColeJ

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Nov 4, 2007
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16
Waxahachie, Texas
mark messier is somehow both the most over-rated player and under-rated player in hockey history.

the dude is a legend, that a lot of people say is trash... but he's also a human with flaws, but he's a straight-up boss too. it's hard to explain. he's somewhere in between the superhero that willed the rangers to a cup and the disgrace that coasted in vancouver, but somewhere in between includes his rightful place as an absolutely amazing player that left a huge mark on the sport.
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
11,845
6,289
mark messier is somehow both the most over-rated player and under-rated player in hockey history.

People in VAN being bitter over Messier in VAN has nothing to do with what he did in Edmonton or New York in the 80s and early 90s. I think everyone recognizes he was an effective player for a long time.

The player with the biggest over- to underrated ratio, if you watch threads on the main board, is probably Pavel Bure. He's either "amazing" and one of the "best players ever" or a "lazy cherry picker" who scored all his goals hanging out in the neutral zone. There's very seldomly an in-between or a balanced or nuanced debate when he's up for debate. Even here on the history board there was a classic collective meltdown (between fanboys and skeptics :snide:) when he appeared in the all-time winger project.
 

ChuckLefley

Registered User
Jan 5, 2016
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Yes, I think you're right. I think the Canucks' brass were kind of desperate by '97 to make a "big splash" move, so they jumped on Messier. Overpaid a declining asset. And yeah, he really had not looked like himself in the '97 playoffs. (Bear in mind, people already thought he was old and done in 1991....)

I would say he hit his pinnacle in 1989-90. Carried that team like no one I've ever seen.

There may be some truth here, but ...er, how do you know this stuff happened?

(By the way, this is the 2nd time this week we've discussed a major star not wanting Shanahan. I'm still wondering what that's all about?)
Shanahan liked to have affairs with teammates wives.
 
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quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
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Hockeytown, MI
Let’s see if we can keep this light. Murder-by-rock, yes. Affair rumors, maybe no. Obviously the one is pretty substantiated by subsequent marriage, but it’s just as possible people don’t like Shanahan for reasons other than who he plays saxophone with.
 
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Hockeyholic

Registered User
Apr 20, 2017
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Condo My Dad Bought Me
Messier was let down by poor roster decisions and coaching in Vancouver. This is a man who wore his heart on his sleeves. First ballot hall of famer. Award named in his honor.
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
28,584
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To be fair, that award is one of the most made fun of awards in sports, seen as nothing more than a 'I'm Mark Messier, and this guy is Canadian'

more like i’m messier i played for new york, here’s a guy. he wears a c.

ftr, more than half of the recipients of the “baldy” weren’t canadian.
 

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