Mark Messier's Leadership

[Hockeyholic]

Gretzky might've been the best Oiler. But people have said Messier was the straw that stirred the drinks. His impecible timing for goals ( 84), hits
( On Potvin), or leading the Rangers through adversity to beat the Devils in 94. Can anybody match this man's leadership?

Click to read more...

 

[blood gin]

Yea plenty of guys can match Messiers leadership. Some may want to put him as the #1 Captain/Leader in hockey history and I won't dispute it, it's just that it's hard to actually quantify what impact his leadership had. Suppose Messier never said a word or wore a C but played the exact same way. Would the results have been the same? Perhaps

he played on some stacked teams as well and won. And the final 7 years of his career he played on bad teams. And there was nothing his leadership could do about it to bring those teams out of the muck

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Jean Beliveau
Bobby Clarke

 

[Michael Farkas]

It's always interesting that he gets this "best leader" stuff considering what happened in Vancouver...

Latter day Yzerman would be good to add to TDMM's list probably...

But unless you're in the room, it's tough to really know...so it's an odd premise to begin with...but there are some things that stick out one way or the other that make it to the public...

By all accounts from what I've heard from ex-Devils, Scott Stevens also belongs on that list. He was a powerful voice in the room and came up big in big spots...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i'll throw out another name: patrick roy

 

[Hockeyholic]

i'll throw out another name: patrick roy

Good one. I'll say CuJo

 

[Thenameless]

Jean Beliveau
Bobby Clarke

Yes, I prefer Beliveau and Clarke.

 

[quoipourquoi]

People talk about his grand successes (and his grand failures), but it’s the small things too. Tie Domi tells a great story about Messier both sternly correcting his behavior and then immediately bringing him back into the group dynamic. Neilson talked about Messier organizing team gifts to the coaching staff. He removed the Gatorade stand from the center of the Rangers locker room so that he could make eye contact with everyone. He knew when to have a family meeting in the locker room or when to have it in the bar. Guy literally studied “The Art of War” so he could apply it to being the captain of a hockey team.

That he led by example on the ice too is only half the story - and even with the dramatic hat tricks or games against the Islanders and Blackhawks, probably the least interesting half.

 

[sr edler]

I didn’t know he was down with Chinese literature. Changes everything.

 

[The Panther]

People talk about his grand successes (and his grand failures), but it’s the small things too. Tie Domi tells a great story about Messier both sternly correcting his behavior and then immediately bringing him back into the group dynamic. Neilson talked about Messier organizing team gifts to the coaching staff. He removed the Gatorade stand from the center of the Rangers locker room so that he could make eye contact with everyone. He knew when to have a family meeting in the locker room or when to have it in the bar. Guy literally studied “The Art of War” so he could apply it to being the captain of a hockey team.

That he led by example on the ice too is only half the story - and even with the dramatic hat tricks or games against the Islanders and Blackhawks, probably the least interesting half.

There's no doubt he was a great teammate, at least in his salad years. McSorley is another guy who talked about how, when he went to Edmonton (in 1985) as a borderline NHL-er, Messier found out he was going to stay at a hotel and immediately invited him into his house, where he stayed for weeks.

I think it was Craig Simpson -- himself a great Oiler -- who arrived from Pittsburgh his first week and casually tossed his jersey on the floor before a shower. Messier was like, "No... You don't do that here."

Messier vs. Jimmy Carson is another one. With Carson's head in Fortune-500, he had no hope of impressing those Dynasty-era veterans. I think Messier basically scared him off the team, which is good as it allowed Edmonton to get an extra line of good NHL-ers and win the 1990 Cup.

Bill Ranford also had a drama-queen moment when he arrived from Boston. He got hit by a puck in practice and was lying on the ice, writhing around, and Messier skated over him and said something like, "Get the hell up!"

I'm still depressed by Messier's last 7 seasons. Not that he did anything terrible, but he unfortunately was on one team hitting rock bottom (Van) and another with a bunch of overpaid players (including Messier, to be fair) with no discernible team system (Rangers).

 

[alko]

When he was so great leader, why his time in Vancouver is marked as disaster?

 

[BenchBrawl]

Jean Beliveau
Bobby Clarke

And Eddie Gerard! I know it's debatable but it's debatable both ways and since many people don't know Gerard I like to include him in those discussions.

 

[BenchBrawl]

This topic came up recently in a thread about Ovechkin/Yzerman on the main board, I was asked to make a quick list of greatest captains (copy/pasting):

On top of my head, my list would be something like this:

1.Jean Béliveau
2.Eddie Gerard
3.Mark Messier
4.Bobby Clarke
5.Denis Potvin
6.George Armstrong
7.Scott Stevens

Gets tougher after that for me, Gretzky, Abel, Crosby, Toews, Sakic, Yzerman, Cook, Kennedy, Clapper, Delvecchio and many others were all great.In hindsight Yzerman might make the Top 10, but I don't see what differentiates him from Crosby, Sakic or Toews as a leader.Actually I'd say Toews has the best case among all four, because his leadership was clear from the get go, whereas it's not as clear for Yzerman/Crosby/Sakic, named captain or not.I might even put Toews as high as #5 if I went more in-depth.

This also ignores players that could have been great captains if they had the chance, but might not have it due to how the captain was selected on their team (e.g. based on seniority).

 

[sr edler]

When he was so great leader, why his time in Vancouver is marked as disaster?

I think this is a reasonable take.

 

[The Panther]

The more I learn about Messier in Vancouver, the more I'm convinced he did everything he could there. They were heading into the crapper when they signed him, and they were on the way up again just two years later and (three years later) when he left. Obviously, the Canucks' brain-trust way overpaid for him, but that's not Messier's fault.

The Canucks' organization failed Messier, not the other way around. Canucks' fans should thank Messier.

 

[CharlestownChiefsESC]

The more I learn about Messier in Vancouver, the more I'm convinced he did everything he could there. They were heading into the crapper when they signed him, and they were on the way up again just two years later and (three years later) when he left. Obviously, the Canucks' brain-trust way overpaid for him, but that's not Messier's fault.

The Canucks' organization failed Messier, not the other way around. Canucks' fans should thank Messier.

The Canucks vastly overvalued him. People forget that despite his 36 goals in 96-97 he scored 32 of them between October and February the rest of the season he only potted 4 some attribute due to a back injury while others attribute it to him being annoyed with how the Rangers were being run and him not getting his way. In the playoffs in 97 he had a good series vs Florida but was a ghost vs NJ and Philly. Neil Smith saw the writing on the wall that his play was deteriorating and he had a bigger than the management attitude. Every other team but the Canucks knew this however they had getting Messier away from the Rangers as their number 1 priority as they had gotten fleeced for Gretzky the previous summer.

As far as leadership is concerned he hit his pinnacle in 94, but after that he was in Neil Smith's ear saying he only wanted this player here or that player there. He forced the deadline trades in 96 to bring his Edmonton buddies back which also cost the Rangers a number 2 center in Ray Ferraro and prospects. He also kept blocking a Kovalev for Shanahan deal that would have made the team better. All in all he's still my favorite player and in his waning years on a bad Rangers team he looked like the only one even giving an effort out there most nights. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Killion]

I didn’t know he was down with Chinese literature. Changes everything.

.... ehhedler wins thread.

 

[Mandar]

This topic came up recently in a thread about Ovechkin/Yzerman on the main board, I was asked to make a quick list of greatest captains (copy/pasting):

On top of my head, my list would be something like this:

1.Jean Béliveau
2.Eddie Gerard
3.Mark Messier
4.Bobby Clarke
5.Denis Potvin
6.George Armstrong
7.Scott Stevens

Gets tougher after that for me, Gretzky, Abel, Crosby, Toews, Sakic, Yzerman, Cook, Kennedy, Clapper, Delvecchio and many others were all great.In hindsight Yzerman might make the Top 10, but I don't see what differentiates him from Crosby, Sakic or Toews as a leader.Actually I'd say Toews has the best case among all four, because his leadership was clear from the get go, whereas it's not as clear for Yzerman/Crosby/Sakic, named captain or not.I might even put Toews as high as #5 if I went more in-depth.

This also ignores players that could have been great captains if they had the chance, but might not have it due to how the captain was selected on their team (e.g. based on seniority).

Potvin? The leader of those islander teams was certainly Trottier....with Gillies a distant second.

Arbour knew this very well.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Potvin? The leader of those islander teams was certainly Trottier....with Gillies a distant second.

Arbour knew this very well.

The list was about captains.Not sure if Trottier being a great leader diminishes Potvin's leadership.I'm open to consider I overrate Potvin.

 

[sr edler]

The more I learn about Messier in Vancouver, the more I'm convinced he did everything he could there. [ ... ] The Canucks' organization failed Messier, not the other way around. Canucks' fans should thank Messier.

 

[Mayor Bee]

[deleted]

 

[Mandar]

The list was about captains.Not sure if Trottier being a great leader diminishes Potvin's leadership.I'm open to consider I overrate Potvin.

understood, but both Trottier & Gillies were captains there as well

 

[The Panther]

Every other team but the Canucks knew this however they had getting Messier away from the Rangers as their number 1 priority as they had gotten fleeced for Gretzky the previous summer.

Yes, I think you're right. I think the Canucks' brass were kind of desperate by '97 to make a "big splash" move, so they jumped on Messier. Overpaid a declining asset. And yeah, he really had not looked like himself in the '97 playoffs. (Bear in mind, people already thought he was old and done in 1991....)

As far as leadership is concerned he hit his pinnacle in 94...

I would say he hit his pinnacle in 1989-90. Carried that team like no one I've ever seen.

...but after that he was in Neil Smith's ear saying he only wanted this player here or that player there. He forced the deadline trades in 96 to bring his Edmonton buddies back which also cost the Rangers a number 2 center in Ray Ferraro and prospects. He also kept blocking a Kovalev for Shanahan deal that would have made the team better.

There may be some truth here, but ...er, how do you know this stuff happened?

(By the way, this is the 2nd time this week we've discussed a major star not wanting Shanahan. I'm still wondering what that's all about?)

 

[David Bruce Banner]

There's no doubt he was a great teammate, at least in his salad years. McSorley is another guy who talked about how, when he went to Edmonton (in 1985) as a borderline NHL-er, Messier found out he was going to stay at a hotel and immediately invited him into his house, where he stayed for weeks.

That relationship must have soured at some point, because you can only find a couple of actual Messier fights online, and the ones with McSorley don’t look friendly at all.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

The more I learn about Messier in Vancouver, the more I'm convinced he did everything he could there. They were heading into the crapper when they signed him, and they were on the way up again just two years later and (three years later) when he left. Obviously, the Canucks' brain-trust way overpaid for him, but that's not Messier's fault.

The Canucks' organization failed Messier, not the other way around. Canucks' fans should thank Messier.

This has been addressed several times on the Hockey History boards. My main argument with Messier during his time with the Canucks was that he showed none of the fire and passion and loose-cannon-ness that he had showed with Edmonton and New York. By Messier standards, he coasted.