John Flyers Fan
Registered User
Clarke was regarded as something of a plodding skater. Messier was quite a good skater up to around 36 years old.
Clarke was not a plodding skater. He wasn't graceful, but he wasn't ever beat to a loose puck.
Clarke was regarded as something of a plodding skater. Messier was quite a good skater up to around 36 years old.
Really? Maybe it's the bias of an Oilers fan, but I always found trottier really unlikeable, and he pissed a lot of people off when he played for the US in the Canada Cup that time. (that didn't bother me, but it didn't endear him to the masses)
Hate trottier,you beat me to this.
I knew you Love fergie but all non CH people hate him. The guy was an animal.
Good idea for a thread: Who I would like to have a beer with. My choice:
Bobby Hull
Gordie howe
Rocket
Bentley Bothers
Conacher Family
Ed Litzenberger
Howie Morenz
Mario
Ted Lindsay
etc
Here's some guys I'd like to have a beer with:
Kelly Buchberger
Johnny Bower
Gordie Howe
rick Chartraw
Clark Gillies
Glen anderson (hopefully on his home planet)
Brad Marsh
I've had the chance to speak with Eddie Shack (twice) and Gerry Cheevers over a sip. Shack is everything you'd expect him to be. Of course, he was inebriated when I talked to him, but it wouldn't be an interview with Eddie if he hadn't had a few. Of course, it's still wildly entertaining.I knew you Love fergie but all non CH people hate him. The guy was an animal.
Good idea for a thread: Who I would like to have a beer with. My choice:
Bobby Hull
Gordie howe
Rocket
Bentley Bothers
Conacher Family
Ed Litzenberger
Howie Morenz
Mario
Ted Lindsay
etc
I guess every big name player has a fair amount of detractors.
Except Beliveau.
Coming from an NYR fanlike yourself, that's the supreme compliment. After all, you witnessed him helping destroy your squad nearly every single spring.
Oddly, he never merited a chant at MSG. That's only reserved for HOFers like Potvin and Mario and future HOFers like Brodeur. Lovable yet strange brew, that NY crowd, aiming long-term vocal derision at some of the greatest who ever played the game.
It may indeed be the ultimate compliment but i'm not sure what would give you the idea that i'm a rags fan................i cheer for the habs and don't give a lick what happens to the rangers as long as they lose to Montreal when they play them.
I've heard they even used to get the "Potvin sucks" chant going at the baseball games there
That is quite the compliment for sure.
Trots and Potvin were both great players for sure,i just can't stand Trottier for his switching nationalities stuff.You can do a million good things and they can all get cancelled out by one bad thing.And in Trot's case.........they don't come much worse for me then doing something like that.
But that's just me
My error. Thought for sure you were an NYR fan; it's sometimes hard to keep track on this board.
I remember Trottier's switching nationalities, circa 1984. It is interesting (and I mean that in the most sincere way) how that rubs some the wrong way, even all these years later. Not judging your feelings, just cannot relate to them, and it has nothing to do with my fondness for #19, the player. But allegiance to country runs very deep among many and I respect that sentiment.
Actually, I thought the ill will would be based more on his style of play. Though Clarke retains the reputation (deservedly) for being a chippy/dirty player (once saw him literally insert his stick blade from behind into the mouth of a Devils dman, Tapio Levo; looked like a fish on the hook), Trottier was no angel either, not by a longshot.
I frankly think a Messier/Trottier comparison is more relevant than a Messier/Clarke one. For Trottier was ultimately the superior player to Clarke, without question, IMO. (And Clarke was a great player in his own right.)
Regardless, the league can always do with players the ilk of Messier, Clarke and Trottier. Skilled and nasty. Especially in this day and age of ultra-sensitive officiating (and in some cases, a new breed of ultra-soft fans, who seemingly question any and all contact). It's why I love the likes of Forsberg and Crosby - world-class skill combined with the desire to take your heart out on the ice.
Clarke was not a plodding skater. He wasn't graceful, but he wasn't ever beat to a loose puck.
Messier by a long shot. Greatest leader of all sports (arguably) and what had the 3rd most points in all NHL history? Not to mention is work ethic as well.
I can't remember even seeing Clarke play, but I feel pretty fortunate to have seen alot of Messier and he gets my vote.
I think Messier intimidated more, both with his play and his stick and was probably more talented. Strong skater, strong on the puck and a pretty decent shot. Messier blazing down the right wing and letting go a quick wrist shot off his wrong foot was just a thing of beauty. The goalies were expecting it but he scored many like that anyways.
I don't see how either one gets a real edge work ethic wise, Messier obviously stayed in great shape throughout his career and that lead to his longevity, he always played hard and stepped up. Clarke though has the distinction of being the first successful diabetic pro athlete. That is nothing to sneeze at and takes alot of commitment and work to simply be able to play.
One argument for Clarke. Bobby Orr only played one complete season, 74-75, that year he won the Art Ross, Bobby Clarke won MVP. There are only a handful of players that have won MVP 3 times or more, Howie Morenz, Eddie Shore, Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr, Bobby Clarke, Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux. Even if you count Clarke as the worst of the bunch, that is elite company. And, he won against names like Bobby Orr, Phil Esposito and Guy Lafluer, hardly players to sneeze at.
Messier on the other hand, has the distinction of captaining two different teams to the Stanley cup, winning 6 in total. Two time MVP against very tough competition from Gretzky and Lemieux. And has a long career that's given him a large edge in total points.
Great question, nalyd. raleh made a great point. You have the consensus top three centres in NHL history: Gretzky, Lemieux and Beliveau. Then you have the next six - Clarke, Messier, Trottier, Mikita, Esposito and Morenz. Outside of Morenz and Espo, they're known for their grit and physical play along with their skill.
I'll go with Clarke, but I don't blame anybody for choosing Messier. I loved watching both play - despite their penchant for cheap shots - although both have had their iffy off-ice moments. (Especially Clarke as a GM). But I respect both. I'm not a Messier fan in the least, but he definitely earned my respect.
I would say that Messier was the better goal scorer, but Clarke was the better playmaker. They were both outstanding in the playoffs. Messier won more Cups, but keep in mind that Messier was on the dynasty while Clarke ran into the dynasty. They were both very physical. Messier was more likely to plough into an opponent, but Clarke was no spring chicken in that regard, and Kharlamov wasn't the only victim of Bobby's stick.
Clarke was definitely the better defensive player. He won a Selke and probably would have won more if it existed before 1977. And as much as we've all heard about Messier's leadership ability, Clarke was the better leader. Clarke might be the best leader of all-time outside of Jean Beliveau.
How many other top scorers in the 70s and 80s were also their teams top penalty killer and expected to shut down the opponents top line? There`s lots of negative things to say about Clarke the person, but Clarke the player was something special. I know there`s not much respect here for +/- stats, but Clarke`s numbers in the mid-70s were almost Orr-like. Teams simply didn`t score on the Flyers when Clarke was on the ice.
A reference was made earlier to Clarke`s plodding skating. One of the remarkable things about him was that he didn`t look like a gifted player, but he was the epitome of hard work and determination.
That`s not say he`s better than Messier. It`s a very, very close call. With Messier, unfortunately fans are a little harsh due to his final years being rather mediocre. But most players careers don`t last until their 40s, so it`s not a fair comparison. He should be judged on how great he was in his prime.
Coming from an NYR fanlike yourself, that's the supreme compliment. After all, you witnessed him helping destroy your squad nearly every single spring.
Oddly, he never merited a chant at MSG. That's only reserved for HOFers like Potvin and Mario and future HOFers like Brodeur. Lovable yet strange brew, that NY crowd, aiming long-term vocal derision at some of the greatest who ever played the game.
Look at points per game.
Clarke - 1.0577
Messier - 1.0746
Not only that, but he NEARLY single-handedly lifted the 84 and 90 Oilers, and 94 Rangers to cups. Gretzky was good in 84... but Messier was ON FIRE, and his play against the Islanders in the Stanley Cup finals was the stuff that legends are made of.
Messier captained two different franchises to Stanley Cups. Clarke only did it with one. Messier won 6 cups, and a Conn Smythe. Bobby Clarke NEVER won a Conn Smythe.
But Messier was far more skilled, and you can argue Clarke's Selke as him being better defensively, but Messier was a guy that could shut down an opposition's top center. Ask Trottier about playing against Messier in the 84 SCF.
You mean Mike Bossy? Yeah, Mike Bossy did destroy us, and then when his back went down, so did the Islanders franchise.
Yep, that dynasty team was a one trick pony, based on one player. Perpetrate that myth, if it makes you feel better. Your revisonist history aside, at least those NYI teams had something to come "down" from.
Ask Trottier about playing against Messier in the 84 SCF.
Fine. As long as you ask Messier and Gretzky about playing against Trottier, circa 1981-83. Or, for that matter, ask Messier, circa spring '92, as his team succumbed to the Pens and he was contained by a then-veteran checking center who wore #19. Selective memory is a wonderful thing though, no?
Fine. As long as you ask Messier and Gretzky about playing against Trottier, circa 1981-83. Or, for that matter, ask Messier, circa spring '92, as his team succumbed to the Pens and he was contained by a then-veteran checking center who wore #19. Selective memory is a wonderful thing though, no?
When I said Clarke`s numbers were Orr-like, it was a specific reference to his +/- numbers being as dominant among forwards as Orr`s were among defencemen. For example:That right there is just ridiculous. No one's numbers are "Bobby Orr" like except for Paul Coffey. I think you're far off on that assessment.
cyclops said:Loved Trottiers game..................but hate him for his convenient loyalty change.
Except you don't use numbers to evaluate Messier and Clarke's respective games. And in terms of single-season numbers, Messier's career high is better than Clarke's career high, but Clarke's second-best offensive season is better than Messier's second-best. So "the numbers" aren't as lopsided as you might think. If Clarke had played as many games as Messier, the career points would be much closer.Easily Mess. The numbers alone speak for themselves.
I can't see how anyone could possibly take Bobby Clarke over Mess. I have an absolute ton of respect for Clarke (even if I dislike him as a person).
I just cannot fathom how one would take Bobby Clarke over Messier in any way, shape, or form.
I respect Clarke for being a diabetic, as my aunt and two of my cousins are diabetics. I do think there are other cases of illness that are worse... Mario coming back from Hodgkinson's is one of I think of off the top of my head.
So he won an MVP over the league's top scorer... Messier did that in 90 and 92, Gretzky leading scoring in 90, and Lemieux leading in 92. The league's top scorer isn't always necessarily the league's most valuable player.
Not only that, but he NEARLY single-handedly lifted the 84 and 90 Oilers, and 94 Rangers to cups. Gretzky was good in 84... but Messier was ON FIRE, and his play against the Islanders in the Stanley Cup finals was the stuff that legends are made of.
No doubt about it players have come back from worse. Messier hasn't. Being a diabetic and being a successful person, common, being a diabetic and being a dominant athlete, correct me if I'm wrong, Clarke is the only one. (Any Adam Morrison fans out there, yeah he looks like a rookie of the year favourite, but he's still a long way from dominance.) It is a great example of Clarke's determination to succeed.
Orr isn't just the leading scorer, he's a freaking defenceman who is the leading scorer. Think about that, a defenceman leads the league in scoring and doesn't win MVP? Arguably the best player in history plays his only complete season of his career, and he doesn't win MVP. That's a pretty huge accomplishment on Clarke's part.
Seeing as the '94 playoffs are the defining moment of my hockey fan life, I can say you're flat out wrong. Was he the Ranger's best forward? By a mile, but it was the strength of six arms that lifted that Cup, Messier, Leetch and Richter.