Mark Hunter - Might as well have his own thread

[Warden of the North]

Ok, enough with sidetracking the Dubas thread with Hunter discussions

I like Hunter, but theres nothing to suggest hes any more then average.

His crowning achievement thus far is clearly taking Marner, but lets not pretend that was a great feat. Marner was a solid lock to go top 5 no matter who was running the draft.

He simply has not been here long enough to know if hes actually a *great* scout at picking NHL talent. Theres nothing to suggest hes a bad one either. I just dont understand the mass hysteria about him possibly leaving which is gripping these boards. Hes not the only scout on the planet, and indeed there are other teams doing better then we are in that department. So we'll survive whether hes here or not​

Click to read more...

 

[Stand Witness]

I still believe Hunter is a great scout but I think you always have to factor what the GM wants as a target. For example, the 2015 draft vs the 2016 draft. 2015 had a very different approach when it was Dubas and Hunter leading the way compared to the 2016 draft under Lou.

If I had to guess, this draft with or without Hunter would be a lot closer to the 2015 draft.

I am personally excited to see this draft. I think that Dubas would likely have a list closer to what us "arm chair GMs" would make, which may sound bad but its been proven that literally just drafting off scoring in junior has better results than drafts done by actual NHL scouts.

 

[Leaf Fans]

I think he is a valuable part of the team.

 

[ObscureAlien]

the Leafs signed 5 players to an ELC (Marner, Dermott, Bracco, Nielsen, Timashov) and 1 AHL contract (Dzierkals) from the 2015 draft. Anyone know how that compares to other teams from the same draft?

 

[Nithoniniel]

I still believe Hunter is a great scout but I think you always have to factor what the GM wants as a target. For example, the 2015 draft vs the 2016 draft. 2015 had a very different approach when it was Dubas and Hunter leading the way compared to the 2016 draft under Lou.

If I had to guess, this draft with or without Hunter would be a lot closer to the 2015 draft.

I am personally excited to see this draft. I think that Dubas would likely have a list closer to what us "arm chair GMs" would make, which may sound bad but its been proven that literally just drafting off scoring in junior has better results than drafts done by actual NHL scouts.

This is interesting. I saw someone discuss Hunter drafting policies and pointing out that his fingerprints were all over that 2015 draft, while the last two drafts had clear historical tendencies of Lou in them. I'm not sure that Hunter was as in charge of the last two drafts as we have assumed.

 

[Spirit of 67]

There's no way to know if he's any good or not. He's given us a nice stable of prospectswhich is part of the battle. How good, we don't yet know. A lot depends on development as well. If we look at Dermott, his development has been very good. No reason to believe it won't apply to other prospects.

As for him leaving, he will at some point. He wants to be an NHL GM and I suspect he will get his chance. That doesn't mean he's gonna be all pouty faced and head back to London in the mean time.

 

[Macallan18]

I don't think anyone really has a clue as to who had what input on the drafts so far. I can tell you last year when Liljegren fell to the leafs you could see the grin on every single leaf manager at the table, they all knew it was a huge win.
Some of the European over-agers we took in 2016 DO NOT fit into what I would think of as a Hunter profile. It's more like the European scouts got a much larger say.
Anyways, all of these musings on internal decision making are just that, musings.
Now we can just blame Dubas for everything!!!!

 

[SprDaVE]

Ok, enough with sidetracking the Dubas thread with Hunter discussions

I like Hunter, but theres nothing to suggest hes any more then average.

His crowning achievement thus far is clearly taking Marner, but lets not pretend that was a great feat. Marner was a solid lock to go top 5 no matter who was running the draft.

He simply has not been here long enough to know if hes actually a *great* scout at picking NHL talent. Theres nothing to suggest hes a bad one either. I just dont understand the mass hysteria about him possibly leaving which is gripping these boards. Hes not the only scout on the planet, and indeed there are other teams doing better then we are in that department. So we'll survive whether hes here or not​

He's got a great eye for talent and his experience speaks for itself. I really hope he stays but I'm not crying if he leaves.

I do think it's important to note that under Hunter we didn't make colossal mistakes drating in the first 2 rounds, where you have a much better chance of finding top end talent. Under previous regimes, we've had some awful selections. So I think that's a bit of a win since we were so used to drafting busts where you shouldn't be drafting busts.

I was definitely let down by some of his selections from round 3 to 7 when Lamoriello was GM. Way too many question marks and not many of them have developed or progressed at all. Maybe I'll be proven wrong but it looks really bad the last couple drafts under Lou Lamoriello.

We will have one more "Hunter" draft at least... so we'll see what kind of selections he does under a new watchful eye. I am hoping he gives it 1 full year under Dubas to see how it goes before he takes his ball and goes home.

 

[hullsy47]

He's got a great eye for talent and his experience speaks for itself. I really hope he stays but I'm not crying if he leaves.

I do think it's important to note that under Hunter we didn't make colossal mistakes drating in the first 2 rounds, where you have a much better chance of finding top end talent. Under previous regimes, we've had some awful selections. So I think that's a bit of a win since we were so used to drafting busts where you shouldn't be drafting busts.

I was definitely let down by some of his selections from round 3 to 7 when Lamoriello was GM. Way too many question marks and not many of them have developed or progressed at all. Maybe I'll be proven wrong but it looks really bad the last couple drafts under Lou Lamoriello.

We will have one more "Hunter" draft at least... so we'll see what kind of selections he does under a new watchful eye. I am hoping he gives it 1 full year under Dubas to see how it goes before he takes his ball and goes home.

His junior record is no better than warren rychel

 

[hotpaws]

Ok, enough with sidetracking the Dubas thread with Hunter discussions

I like Hunter, but theres nothing to suggest hes any more then average.

His crowning achievement thus far is clearly taking Marner, but lets not pretend that was a great feat. Marner was a solid lock to go top 5 no matter who was running the draft.

He simply has not been here long enough to know if hes actually a *great* scout at picking NHL talent. Theres nothing to suggest hes a bad one either. I just dont understand the mass hysteria about him possibly leaving which is gripping these boards. Hes not the only scout on the planet, and indeed there are other teams doing better then we are in that department. So we'll survive whether hes here or not​

a scrawny skilled winger like Marner was far from from a lock with the amount of top end talent that was available that year , that's no knock on MM it's just a statement on how good that draft was and i could have easily seen him going anywhere from 3rd to 8th/9th

also Hunter was not just in charge of the amateur draft but the entire scouting dept which he built so if you're going to evaluate him then you have to look at his work from advising on trades , f/a signings , euro ufa etc.

anyway now that he wasn't selected as GM and looks like he's leaving soon from all reports i believe it's time to crap all over him and kick to the curb the classic Leaf way

 

[ULF_55]

Ok, enough with sidetracking the Dubas thread with Hunter discussions

I like Hunter, but theres nothing to suggest hes any more then average.

His crowning achievement thus far is clearly taking Marner, but lets not pretend that was a great feat. Marner was a solid lock to go top 5 no matter who was running the draft.

He simply has not been here long enough to know if hes actually a *great* scout at picking NHL talent. Theres nothing to suggest hes a bad one either. I just dont understand the mass hysteria about him possibly leaving which is gripping these boards. Hes not the only scout on the planet, and indeed there are other teams doing better then we are in that department. So we'll survive whether hes here or not​

You can't evaluate a scout based on what he did at another level of hockey, anymore than you can evaluate a player in the NHL based on what he did in junior.

It is much too soon to evaluate Hunter in the NHL period. As you mention, taking Marner wasn't a huge reach, it might have been the best decision, but that is around where Marner was going to be drafted. Dermott is a good pick, but other teams make good picks in the same area of the draft, and they did so without Hunter.

Now Hunter doesn't have to be the best NHL talent (draft) evaluator to be great, but he has to be amongst the best, and in time we will know if this is true.

MLSE can always poach other scouts if Hunter leaves, and we know they'll pay premium dollar for those guys I don't think many other teams would want to get into a bidding war with deep pockets.

 

[saltming]

Oh man! Did hunter threaten to quit his job if he didn't get his own thread?

 

[rumman]

It kills me how Hunter gets the hate, he's a vital piece of the leafs mgmt team imo. I hope they find a way to keep him in the fold. I would have chosen him over Dubas for GM, but I think Dubas will be fine. If Hunter does leave, and Lou moves along to the Islanders as rumored, possibly taking along others with him, it'll really be hard on Dubas, in a perfect world no one leaves except Lou, who rightly would be better off with the Islanders than riding out his days in Toronto as a consultant.

 

[ottomaddox]

Are there any GM positions available?

Is he being recruited like Dubas was?

It seems to me that GM jobs aren't always handed out casually to the person who expressed interest in being the GM for TOR.

 

[The CyNick]

Knights are the elite franchise in the OHL to which he had a major role in.

He led a decision making department in the NHL.

Seemed to select the right player in Marner when it was a coin flip between him and Hanifin. In fact a lot of mock drafts had him much further down because he was a smaller winger, and people were stuck in the truclance era. He also had pressure from the coach to take Hanifin and went with his own eye test. This was a risky move that shows guts.

Rest of his drafting remains to be seen by and large. Way too early to judge.

I didn't want him as GM but his resume is far far superior to the other internal candidate.

 

[Warden of the North]

He's got a great eye for talent and his experience speaks for itself. I really hope he stays but I'm not crying if he leaves.

I do think it's important to note that under Hunter we didn't make colossal mistakes drating in the first 2 rounds, where you have a much better chance of finding top end talent. Under previous regimes, we've had some awful selections. So I think that's a bit of a win since we were so used to drafting busts where you shouldn't be drafting busts.

Korshkov was out of left field and is still looking pretty questionable.

a scrawny skilled winger like Marner was far from from a lock with the amount of top end talent that was available that year , that's no knock on MM it's just a statement on how good that draft was and i could have easily seen him going anywhere from 3rd to 8th/9th

Marner was a projected top 5 pick all season. You could have seen him going three through 9 but the concensus of professional scouts was he was a top 5 pick.

It kills me how Hunter gets the hate, he's a vital piece of the leafs mgmt team imo.

No where did I say I hated him. I dont believe anyone here has. Its the hysteria over losing him which is getting a little much. I would be happy if he wanted to stay here, I'll move on the second he leaves.

 

[AppsSyl]

His junior record is no better than warren rychel

Lol. Are you serious? London has priced 3x the NHLers as the next closest franchise since the Hunters have been at the helm.

 

[saltming]

Knights are the elite franchise in the OHL to which he had a major role in.

He led a decision making department in the NHL.

Seemed to select the right player in Marner when it was a coin flip between him and Hanifin. In fact a lot of mock drafts had him much further down because he was a smaller winger, and people were stuck in the truclance era. He also had pressure from the coach to take Hanifin and went with his own eye test. This was a risky move that shows guts.

Rest of his drafting remains to be seen by and large. Way too early to judge.

I didn't want him as GM but his resume is far far superior to the other internal candidate.

OHL wise Dubas did an amazing job with tougher circumstances. In London hunter was in prime real estate and had lots of money whereas Dubas in the Soo was a budget team in the hinterlands.
At the NHL level Dubas was in charge of more departments than hunter AND had his own team at the same time.
Their resumes are equal in the least with maybe a slight edge to Dubas imo as he's had more responsibility at the NHL level

 

[Liminality]

It's hard to say what Hunter was a part of and what he wasn't. When we had no GM Hunter basically took over the 2015 draft right? Besides that we don't really know what he's done behind the scenes.

 

[ObscureAlien]

His junior record is no better than warren rychel

Let's compare OHL results from 06/07 to 13/14 when both Warren Rychel and Mark Hunter were GM's.

London Knights

06/07: 104 points, 1st in conference, 1st in league, lost in conference finals
07/08: 82 points, 4th in conference, 8th in league, lost in 1st round
08/09: 101 points, 2nd in conference, 2nd in league, lost in conference finals
09/10: 101 points, 2nd in conference, 3rd in league, lost in 2nd round
10/11: 73 points, 8th in conference, 12th in league, lost in 1st round
11/12: 99 points, 1st in conference, 1st in league, won ohl championship
12/13: 105 points, 1st in conference, 1st in league, won ohl championship
13/14: 103 points, 3rd in conference, 3rd in league, lost in 2nd round

Average: 96 points per season, 2.75 average finish in conference, 3.875 average finish in league, 8 playoff appearances, 2x lost in 1st round, 4 final four appearances, 2 championships

Windsor Spitfires

06/07: 43 points, 9th in conference, 19th in league, missed playoffs
07/08: 94 points, 3rd in conference, 4th in league, lost in 1st round
08/09: 115 points, 1st in conference, 1st in league, won ohl championship
09/10: 106 points, 1st in conference, 2nd in league, won ohl championship
10/11: 84 points, 4th in conference, 8th in league, lost in conference finals
11/12: 65 points, 8th in conference, 16th in league, lost in 1st round
12/13: 61 points, 9th in conference, 15th in league, missed playoffs
13/14: 77 points, 5th in conference, 9th in league, lost in 1st round

Average: 80.625 points per season, 5.0 average finish in conference, 9.25 average finish in league, 6 playoff appearances, 3x lost in 1st round, 3 final four appearances, 2 championships

So yes, Windsor can't even average a higher finish in their conference as the Knights can in the league, Windsor more than doubles the Knights in combined 1st round exits and missed playoffs, London has more than double the 100 point seasons.

But yes, 'Hunter's junior record is no better than Rychels'.

 

[hotpaws]

Marner was a projected top 5 pick all season. You could have seen him going three through 9 but the concensus of professional scouts was he was a top 5 pick.
.

Marner was projected to go very high but that's far different than being a lock . McD and Eichel were locks at 1/2 but after that no one would have batted an eye if Strome/Marner/Hanifin/Provorov went in any order from 3 to 6 as well as maybe dropping a spot or two if a team fell in love with a lower rated prospect.

 

[Buds17]

If he's looking for a certain opportunity, or a bigger role than what the Leafs can offer, he's within his rights to pursue that. Same for Lamoriello, and that's obviously what brought him here from NJ in the first place.

Hopefully there won't be much front office upheaval, but if there is, we'll have to identify and bring in the best replacements we can. Would be great to keep the band together, but that isn't always possible.

 

[Mess]

Marner was projected to go very high but that's far different than being a lock . McD and Eichel were locks at 1/2 but after that no one would have batted an eye if Strome/Marner/Hanifin/Provorov went in any order from 3 to 6 as well as maybe dropping a spot or two if a team fell in love with a lower rated prospect.

Some scouts with an keen eye for talent had ..

1) McDavid
2) Eichel
3) Barzal
4) Provorov

and Hunter should have picked between a PPG 86 point centre or a potential #1D man playing +25 mins/g with #4 or traded back to #8 to take Werenski/Marner/Rantanen and added 3 X 2nds. IMO

Wingers are easy to find and had Leafs ended up with Mikko Rantanen, Sebastian Aho, Kyle Connor, Brock Boeser etc instead of Marner they would still have added a 25- 30 goal winger all drafted later on and not needed a top 5 pick to find one.

Leafs wouldn't be looking for a C to replace Bozak with 2 X PPG centres in Matthews & Barzal with Kadri running 1-3 down the middle or taken Provorov or Werenski and not be looking for a top pairing Dman and PP QB as they would have already drafted their own with better foresight.

Hunter's love for wingers and particularly smaller skilled ones has drafted holes into Leafs line-up and sent the GM scrambling to fill vital building block positions externally at C and D, through trades and UFA signings.

This doesn't mean Marner isn't a great young player in his own right as he is, but when it comes to the tried and tested team building winning formula " Build from the Goalie out, through strong Defense, and strength down the middle", Hunter has missed the mark ..

Maybe this is one of the reasons Shanny decided Dubas >> Hunter when it comes to understanding team building strategies better.

 

[RoadWarrior]

Korshkov was out of left field and is still looking pretty questionable.



Marner was a projected top 5 pick all season. You could have seen him going three through 9 but the concensus of professional scouts was he was a top 5 pick.



No where did I say I hated him. I dont believe anyone here has. Its the hysteria over losing him which is getting a little much. I would be happy if he wanted to stay here, I'll move on the second he leaves.

The Korshkov pick was a wild swing that could have paid off if not for his broken leg that set him back. You can't predict severe injuries.

My feeling is that it's better to take gambles in the 3rd and 4th rounds when the talent pool has thinned out.

 

[RoadWarrior]

Dubas has shown an ability to manage an elite AHL franchise. Hunter is an exceptional scout but there's far more to the GM role than scouting alone.